What's the point of barriers without security

[Benjwri]

In new york you have barriers that go upto the ceiling so you can't jump them. Don't think they abide by our disability regs though

But they have an emergency exit that anyone can open, so groups send one person through paying and the rest use the barrier.

In my opinion barriers are still very worthwhile. There is a significant amount of more casual fare evasion on the lines where I live, which don’t have barriers, and people take the view that they don’t have to pay unless challenged. These aren’t kids, a lot of my parents friend do it, who are in their mid 50s, along with a lot of my friends. Of this large amount of people who do it that I know, only a small minority would push through a gate. In my opinion there are a large amount of people which these gates are deterring from fare evading, and they should be rolled out much further.

 

[HullRailMan]

It’s completely pointless having barriers you can so easily go over, under or through. It feels like a typical committee designed fudge to implement a revenue barrier but make it as easy as possible to avoid.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s completely pointless having barriers you can so easily go over, under or through. It feels like a typical committee designed fudge to implement a revenue barrier but make it as easy as possible to avoid.

Do you think they protect less revenue than it’s worth? If so, why do you think train companies persist with installing them?

 

[greyman42]

It's a symptom of a lack of facilities for young people (and the offenders are generally young), a lack of order and discpline on other anti-social activites that they might carry out and sometimes the wrong (if any) authority figures in their lives.

Which facilities are they lacking that cause them to fare dodge?

You learn quickly who you can trust, ever seen the magic search at old Tottenham ground!

Can you explain that one?

 

[Ianmel1969]

At Havant the other day I saw one little brat try and vault the barriers and ended up with his right foot trapped at the top. It was so funny watching the station staff having a good old chuckle for a minute before, of course, having to open the barriers and let it leave.

 

[LMS 4F]

Security staff have limited powers, really not much more than anyone else, unlawful detention is another hazard, citizens arrest only really applies to offences that can result in a 12 month+ sentence.
A lot of security only have an SIA licence as the job centre paid for it, have had staff who "must work together as they translate for each other" usually off site quicker than they arrive, lots of jacket fillers. You learn quickly who you can trust, ever seen the magic search at old Tottenham ground!

Powers of Arrest are covered by Sections 24 and 25 Of PACE act 1984. Section 24 deals with arrestable offences so the security person needs to know what they are and then when the power can be used by them. All this knowledge would take some time to learn the theory and then how to put it into practice.
i would guess that few if any of the companies that hire these staff will be prepared to invest the time and finance and therefore the staff are unlikely to have much if any knowledge of what they can Or cannot do in any circumstance.
The 12 months has no relevance to any of this, the act says an offence which carries a possible five years on conviction is one of the cond to be deemed an arrestable offence.

 

[En]

They do actually have considerable powers comparable to police that are almost never used.

the problem being that to do that dentention they would require the legal ability to Arrest not just detain and that Procedures would have to be put in place with local Police ofrces to access Custody suites and the like ... given that there has been a move away from detention powers outside national POlicing / Law Enforcement bodies ( the death of the University , Cathedral and Parks Constabularies etc )

 

[NSEWonderer]

At Havant the other day I saw one little brat try and vault the barriers and ended up with his right foot trapped at the top. It was so funny watching the station staff having a good old chuckle for a minute before, of course, having to open the barriers and let it leave.

Reminds me of a similar incident at Covent Garden where an individual tried to vault a an automatic gate and was caught right in the noggins.

Had the individual desperately thanking the station staff on release

Article

 

[Sonic1234]

If so, why do you think train companies persist with installing them?

Different TOCs seem to value barriers differently. GTR gates nearly everything. SE leaves a lot of stations ungated.

 

[al78]

As I remember a radio ad for a game saying "What makes someone a criminal? Getting caught". Even if you stop these people, they won't be compliant. Removal from the station is the only possible punishment (unless police are around).

A lot of the time the barrier staff either are too demotivated or scared of the sort of people who do this. Better to let them jump the barrier, or even open it for them, let the "yoof" walk out and become someone else's problem and write off the £2.50 Oyster fare they've dodged.

Actions without consequences soon become entitlements which is when the violent response to being called out comes in. Unfortunately this all sounds to me like part of the culture of decline in the UK. Things don't work properly and no-one has the ability or will to try and improve things, so we ultimately end up with regression, likely resulting in externlised costs on everyone else in one way or another.

 

[physics34]

It did amuse me once at balham when a kid jumping the barriers banged his head on a sign and fell backwards onto his arse infront of a ton of rush hour commuters

Lets just say there wasnt a rush of people going to his aid!

 

[peteb]

In theory a lot harder to do in France, as by law you must carry ID..........

 

[bishdunster]

Old enough to know you wouldnt even think of trying to dodge past the gentleman in his little wooden booth with his clippers, i wonder how much these barrierrs cost over their lifetime compared to a man in the ticket inspecting box, besides which there is now no personal face to face welcome ??????????

 

[najaB]

Old enough to know you wouldnt even think of trying to dodge past the gentleman in his little wooden booth with his clippers, i wonder how much these barrierrs cost over their lifetime compared to a man in the ticket inspecting box...

That's an easy one. They are going to cost significantly less than £40K per year to operate (assuming two minimum wage employees to cover 16 hours per day).

 

[nap666]

Which facilities are they lacking that cause them to fare dodge?


Can you explain that one?

Try this,

 

[jumble]

You see people, mostly kids, pushing through the barriers or going underneath in full view of station staff who can do nothing to stop them and they are as frustrated as fare paying passengers.

It's all very well having a poster campaign saying you must buy a ticket before travelling but without any back up it's pointless. Station staff and guards are helpless to do anything. Maybe it's a SWT and Southern problem but I doubt it.

I just witnessed a mother go through with a ticket but her family, all 4 of them, either climbed the fence or went under the barrier. The kids, aged up to 15, just laughed.

Spend the money on security and try and break the habit that they can travel for free.

At least in London my understanding is that TFL have done exactly this with their enforcement officers who are quite prepared to use the bylaws to physically remove misbehaver's or detain them as below
( We can of course ignore the face covering part )

TFL Enforcement Officers

I have seen groups of these uniformed staff on the network but they never appear to do much and thus appear a huge waste of money Therw were some at West Ruislip a few weeks ago on the gateline but none stood by the ungated exit to the Chiltern platforms which lead to ungated exit off the...

www.railforums.co.uk

The Transport Support & Enforcement Officers who are those in the blue uniforms are not there to check tickets and indeed they do not have any equipment to check tickets and are not authorised to do so. They are there to enforce the TfL Railway byelaws (which does include things like forcing through the ticket gates), as well as face covering regulations. They are empowered to issue fixed penalty notices under the face coverings regulations, as well as report customers for byelaw breaches, in addition to being trained to physically eject someone from the premises, or detain someone awaiting police attendance (subject to the laws that an ordinary member of the public can use


( as an aside I find it amusing that some idiots tell BTP PCSOs that they are plastic police people who cannot do anything and then find themselves in handcuffs because the bylaws say different)

 

[FiloFax]

At my local London Underground/Overground station in NE London I frequently see young men push through the double width barriers (these appear much easier to push through than the single width barriers). It is dispiriting but I prefer them to do this than tailgait me, which really really annoys me. I wouldn't expect the station staff to approach these men, as I imagine they could turn nasty.

 

[jon0844]

Great Northern Travel Safe Officers seem to be quite keen and able to block the path of people pushing through and taking people off trains using (minimal) force. It seems to be causing some surprise from those who assumed they'd be allowed to just do what they like.

Clearly this sort of thing is essential to restore some balance and stop people thinking they're able to do whatever they want.

 

[LondonExile]

the problem being that to do that dentention they would require the legal ability to Arrest not just detain and that Procedures would have to be put in place with local Police ofrces to access Custody suites and the like ... given that there has been a move away from detention powers outside national POlicing / Law Enforcement bodies ( the death of the University , Cathedral and Parks Constabularies etc )

My understanding is that it is legally unclear whether that power in the Regulation of Railways Act is a valid power of arrest, and if it is, whether the railway companies would then also be bound by PACE regulations on anyone they lock up to bring before the Magistrates.

I think in theory, there is a chance that if Northern (for example) detained fare evaders on a Saturday afternoon and held them in a cell until they drove them in a secure vehicle to a Magistrates Court on Monday morning (as the Police would also do if they remanded you to the next court) that it could be legal. In practice though, those powers have gone unused for so long, I think it would be a legal minefield. Implicit repeal by things like PACE would I think be arguable points (effectively arguing that Parliament didn't intend for you to have a whole bunch of rights if arrested by Police etc., but not if detained under Victorian legislation by the railway.)

If case law was then to be set saying that the Victorian law isn't usable any more - there would also be no legal protection for the staff involved, who would now be guilty of assault and false imprisonment at a minimum. I can absolutely see why no TOC is wanting to run that legal risk, and no staff member should risk it either.

 

[cool110]

Implicit repeal by things like PACE would I think be arguable points (effectively arguing that Parliament didn't intend for you to have a whole bunch of rights if arrested by Police etc., but not if detained under Victorian legislation by the railway.)

A counter point to that is that PACE did amend that section of RoRA to remove the power from constables. So there's a strong argument that Parliament saw to stop police using it to bypass those rights, while intentionally leaving it open to BR and subsequently the ToCs.

 

[najaB]

The ORR has an interesting document about ticket barriers and how they're used on the UK rail network. It's a few years old, but most of the information is still relevant. It covers things like the design standards, information on how they're to be used, the regulations and legislation surrounding them, and some thoughts on the future of the gateline.

I've not quoted from it since it is over twenty pages long, but here's a link for anyone interested: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...ates-september-2018-annex-a-safety-report.pdf

 

[LondonExile]

A counter point to that is that PACE did amend that section of RoRA to remove the power from constables. So there's a strong argument that Parliament saw to stop police using it to bypass those rights, while intentionally leaving it open to BR and subsequently the ToCs.

Oh indeed, I think it's arguable and unclear. Without that clarity though, I think its also perfectly reasonable for TOCs to protect their staff by demanding that they don't use these powers.

 

[Edsmith]

I saw an incident recently at Dartford, youth asks to be let through barriers without a ticket offering some sob story, staff say they can't let him through without a ticket so he waits for someone with a ticket to go through and tailgates them. Staff get on the radio but unlikely anything will be done about it.

I think security staff generally might stand in the way of someone to prevent them getting through the barriers but once they're in they won't attempt to physically remove them and understandably so.

There's a video somewhere of a girl vaulting the barriers and falling flat on her face, hopefully she'll think twice about doing that again.

 

[bleeder4]

Ticket barriers are a deterrent for regular law-abiding people. They are designed to prompt them to buy a ticket and I'm sure they work in that respect. But anyone who is hell bent on travelling without buying a ticket will still find a way of getting on the train without a ticket, regardless of how many barriers or security staff there are. It's the same with any sort of security system - be it home security, computer security, car security etc - they keep those who don't want the hassle away but won't keep out the truly dedicated law breakers.

 

[najaB]

It's the same with any sort of security system - be it home security, computer security, car security etc - they keep those who don't want the hassle away but won't keep out the truly dedicated law breakers.

Almost. The people who "don't want the hassle" also includes opportunistic criminals - those who only break the law (be it by not paying for their ticket, petty theft or otherwise) because it's easy and the risk of detection is low. As you say they won't stop those who are truly intent on criminality.

There is a lot of merit to the argument that most hardened criminals started down that path because petty crime was so easy.

 

[NSEWonderer]

To be fair, the majority of the most hardened criminals would not push through a gate, as they would be aiming to keep detection low and blend in as much as possible when in public areas. It is your petty criminals, drunk on the brew of invincibility, who will go through the gates until that cloak of untouchability is removed.

 

[70014IronDuke]

No we don't, we live in a thieves and thugs state, which do you prefer?

I think there is a confused and confusing argument going on here, because of the lack of definition or understanding of the term "police state".

Just because BTP or whichever authority doubled or tripled their presence does not make the country a "police state".

I suggest that 'police state' does not mean a state with 'a lot of police' but, a state where the police have been given the freedom to tread on and violate what today we would term 'basic human rights' - invariably in the service of some despotic autocrat.

 

[jon0844]

If we knew how many BTP officers there were on duty at any given time away from major cities, I doubt anyone would be talking of police states.

 

[najaB]

I suggest that 'police state' does not mean a state with 'a lot of police' but, a state where the police have been given the freedom to tread on and violate what today we would term 'basic human rights' - invariably in the service of some despotic autocrat.

That said, the latter does necessarily require the former. Cf. states such as the German Democratic Republic where something like 2.5% of the working-age population were either formal members of the security service or unpaid informants. In the UK that would amount to something like 1.5 million people, as opposed to the c. 180,000 people employed by the Home Office Police, BTP, MI5 and MI6.

If one was intent on turning the UK into a police state you would need likely need something like a ten-fold increase in the size of the security services.

 

[Krokodil]

Nobody in their right mind would vault a barrier with BTP present,

Criminal types aren't very bright. One turned up at an exit barrier and asked to be let through. Was told to go to excess fares and buy a ticket. So he went off. Came back soon after and was met on the other side of the still-closed barrier, exchanging some 'goods' across it. The whole sequence of events was right in front of a uniformed BTP officer. A very easy arrest there.

It’s completely pointless having barriers you can so easily go over, under or through. It feels like a typical committee designed fudge to implement a revenue barrier but make it as easy as possible to avoid.

It's not pointless at all. It deals with the vast majority of non-payers, making it easier for conductors and RPIs to target the hard core.