Wheelchair user unable to board Azuma in reverse configuration at Kings Cross

[Starmill]

It is the theme and comments I heard her LNER colleagues make, she wouldn't come and make an appearance in the video and talk to Doug so relied upon her colleagues to deliver the message. So this is hypothesised feeling from watching it

It's genuinely bizarre to be fussy about simply being on camera while in a public place.

Moderator note: Discussion relating to cameras in public spaces can be found at:

What expecations of privacy should apply to persons working in a public-facing role?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wheelchair-user-unable-to-board-azuma-in-reverse-configuration-at-kings-cross.257877/ It is the theme and comments I heard her LNER colleagues make, she wouldn't come and make an appearance in the video and talk to Doug so relied...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[norbitonflyer]

I said on another thread that it can be problematic to move a train.

Possibly there was no driver in the cab yet - especially if the one who drove it in was not the one rostered to take it out.

I can see those who paid first class being unhappy about standard class passengers using first.

Can't see why - it's not as if the wheelchair occupant is getting a more comfortable seat without paying for it, or occupying a seat to the exclusion of a fare paying 1st class passenger. (On some trains, it seems bringing your own seat is the only way of having any chnace of getting to sit down!)

Last year, I was travelling with a wheelchair user from Manchester to London. This was at the times when Avanti were running one train in three, and our booked one was not running. We arrived shortly before a train was due to depart, and understandably it was already standing-room only in standard class. The staff had no hesitation in whisking us down to the far (London/1st Class) end of the train to use the wheelchair space there because both the standard class ones were already occupied by baby buggies, luggage, and who knows what else, and getting everyone to make space for us in standard class would have delayed the train's departure.

 

[yorkie]

Possibly there was no driver in the cab yet - especially if the one who drove it in was not the one rostered to take it out.

It was stated that the driver agreed to do it; was that not the driver who was speaking in the video around the 5-minute mark? They even said "I'm happy to move it".

 

[43066]

Possibly there was no driver in the cab yet - especially if the one who drove it in was not the one rostered to take it out.

In the video being discussed the driver is shown stating he’s ready and willing to do it!

 

[robbeech]

If this had been the first time this had happened, or at least the first time it had happened and someone had (justifiably) kicked up a fuss about it then you may be able to understand and accept a bit of faff and difference of understanding if no procedure had been put in place.
However, given this has allegedly happened before and they’ve allegedly moved the train before there is no excuse for there not to be a simple procedure in place to get around this.

Surely a change of stop point for a 5 car unit in reverse formation on arrival isn’t too much to ask?
Moving the train whilst out of service, am I right in thinking this would just need the driver and communicating with the signaller?
Drawing forwards immediately before normal dispatch at the booked departure time, whilst this would cause a delay it would be safer as there would be less people trying to board.

As others have alluded to, I’m not entirely on board with this person’s attitude to some things, and in absolute terms when using “security threat”, that would have been the time for LNER to hand it over to the police but their argument here is sound and LNER have shown themselves up significantly here and should be very disappointed with themselves.

 

[skyhigh]

Moving the train whilst out of service, am I right in thinking this would just need the driver and communicating with the signaller?

It depends on the location. You might also need the platform staff involved.

 

[robbeech]

It depends on the location. You might also need the platform staff involved.

Yes, a valid point.

 

[voyagerdude220]

As others have alluded to, I’m not entirely on board with this person’s attitude to some things, and in absolute terms when using “security threat”, that would have been the time for LNER to hand it over to the police but their argument here is sound and LNER have shown themselves up significantly here and should be very disappointed with themselves.

I strongly agree with you.

Moderator note: Discussion relating to cameras in public spaces can be found at:

What expecations of privacy should apply to persons working in a public-facing role?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wheelchair-user-unable-to-board-azuma-in-reverse-configuration-at-kings-cross.257877/ It is the theme and comments I heard her LNER colleagues make, she wouldn't come and make an appearance in the video and talk to Doug so relied...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Adrian1980uk]

LNER can't change what's happened but they need to learn from what's happened and realise they cannot run a 5 car unit in reverse, what's the solution though? A lot of people would just not want to cause the hassle and it's unacceptable to put someone in the position that they have to.

 

[james_the_xv]

LNER can't change what's happened but they need to learn from what's happened and realise they cannot run a 5 car unit in reverse, what's the solution though? A lot of people would just not want to cause the hassle and it's unacceptable to put someone in the position that they have to.

Surely the solution is much simpler, and have a procedure in place to draw a unit forward if there is a disabled reservation?

 

[LowLevel]

LNER can't change what's happened but they need to learn from what's happened and realise they cannot run a 5 car unit in reverse, what's the solution though? A lot of people would just not want to cause the hassle and it's unacceptable to put someone in the position that they have to.

They can and will run a 5 car unit in reverse because cancelling the train would be silly. What they do need to do however is make use of their generally well staffed trains and stations and mitigate it when it causes unexpected issues like this one.

I can absolutely guarantee that a similar issue regarding 8xx wheelchair space provision is occurring elsewhere, with a lot of head scratching going on to try and resolve issues with one ended wheelchair spaces and short platforms on a route where the trains can be any way round owing to reversing moves.

It is not an insurmountable problem, it's just an unusual one. IETs are capable trains - the driver can literally select which individual doors they want to unlock for each station, should they need to do so. Positioning one in out of course situations shouldn't be particularly difficult providing care is taken to do it correctly.

My trains are generally shorter, and far less technical - but even then I've spoken to the driver before and told them I will stop them on the buzzer at a particular location for platforming requirements (in this case, to line a wheelchair accessible door up with a Harrington Hump) - clear understanding reached, I made appropriate on board announcements, the driver rolled in at less than 5 mph, the task was completed and we were on our way with no delay caused.

 

[ExRes]

LNER can't change what's happened but they need to learn from what's happened and realise they cannot run a 5 car unit in reverse, what's the solution though?

The solution most certainly wouldn't be to cancel a train because a diversion caused it to be reversed, the only (sensible) outcome is to run it reversed until it can be turned, it just needs the small matter of communication ......

 

[ComUtoR]

what's the solution though?

You can use a different style ramp

 

[800001]

The solution most certainly wouldn't be to cancel a train because a diversion caused it to be reversed, the only (sensible) outcome is to run it reversed until it can be turned, it just needs the small matter of communication ......

Which is what happens every time a unit ends in reverse, at the first opportunity a 5 car bimode will be turned. On a normal daily timetable that can only happen on 5B90 Lincoln to Doncaster IEP depot, (departs straight to Doncaster without a reversal at Boutham junction) or when working 5N23 Middlesbrough to Heaton, where it can be turned on the bridges at Newcastle.

The units are never diagrammed to be in reverse, however last week, there was several diversions via Hambleton towards Leeds due to trees on OHL at Outwood and also attempted theft of signalling cable at Bentley.

 

[robbeech]

LNER can't change what's happened but they need to learn from what's happened and realise they cannot run a 5 car unit in reverse, what's the solution though? A lot of people would just not want to cause the hassle and it's unacceptable to put someone in the position that they have to.

Removing their ability or right to run a 5 car unit in reverse thus causing cancellations of services is not going to be an option. It is also not what the majority of people who this issue could affect would want to see happen.

What they do need to do however is make use of their generally well staffed trains and stations and mitigate it when it causes unexpected issues like this one.

One of the positives from this video, and subsequently this thread on here is that it will be difficult to consider this an “unexpected issue” moving forwards.

You can use a different style ramp

There’s legislation regarding gradients for both assisted and non assisted access, are we sure that this would still comply?
A station based ramp with a right angle and turning point would be compliant, but this would likely be of a size and weight that would require several people to move and deploy it, likely making it a less sensible option than just moving the train.

 

[ComUtoR]

There’s legislation regarding gradients for both assisted and non assisted access, are we sure that this would still comply?

Yes, they are widely available. If not, I have no doubt that a derogation would get put in place.

A station based ramp with a right angle and turning point would be compliant, but this would likely be of a size and weight that would require several people to move and deploy it,

They are still very portable. We have them at my TOC.

 

[Hadders]

The whole incident is a damning indictment of some of the cultural issues that exist on the railway.

I am pleased that Doug held his position and insisted he was put on the train, how many other people would not have done this? The fact that something like this can happen at a station like Kings Cross, a flagship station on the network, makes things even worse.

I wonder what would have happened if the train had arrived in reverse formation with the passenger on board? How would they have got him off withiut moving teh train?

 

[800001]

Tha

The whole incident is a damning indictment of some of the cultural issues that exist on the railway.

I am pleased that Doug held his position and insisted he was put on the train, how many other people would not have done this? The fact that something like this can happen at a station like Kings Cross, a flagship station on the network, makes things even worse.

I wonder what would have happened if the train had arrived in reverse formation with the passenger on board? How would they have got him off withiut moving teh train?

That’s the issue, they would have had to move the train to allow the customer to alight the train safely.

The annoying thing is, with the Mk 4s If they stop slightly out of position, it’s not unheard of for permission to move the train a few feet, so the train can be tanked with water, it happens very frequently, so it’s not as if station staff and crew etc do not know what to do.

The whole issue of getting Doug on the train could have been sorted in 2-3 minutes.

 

[RobShipway]

For me, it shows, why there is a need for doors of trains to be at the same level of the platforms which should have been part of the design of the class 800 trains and any other trains built within the last 20 plus years; See Speculation thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...the-trains-in-the-future.251978/#post-6332435

Not all disabled people have the phone number of senior management of the TOC that they are travelling with to contact them, and for them to be saying to the 'Train Manager' that you will be making sure that the disabled passenger that has booked on to use the service can get on the train.

Now from watching Doug's video and many other videos on Youtube, regarding disabled people in either wheelchair or using frames to access the train, it seems to me that TOC's have not learned a thing in the last 13 years as to how to be treating disabled passengers.

 

[paul1609]

Could have done with him being on the LNER train I took about six weeks ago, where the reservations in the first unit were back to front.

The 5 car Azumas are a flaming menace, though, and need sorting into proper length sets.

All it needs is a 5R stop board 10 metres out from the buffer stops at King's Cross. Even a 10 car class 800 is 260 metres. The shortest Platform 0 to 8 is 279 metres.

The disabled door would be then not be alongside the escalator.
Stop short boards have been in use at Euston just down the road for years.

 

[Hadders]

While it's easy to solutionise about Kings Cross these sort of issues will arise across the network, often unexpected.

Drivers, Train Managers, Singallers and Control Staff are highly paid members of staff and should be expected and empowered to come up with pragmatic solutions to these sort of problems that will arise from time to time. Clearly this needs to be done in a safe manner and within the rules.

'Stuff happens' from time to time and you have to sort it out. Shrugging shoulders and saying 'no' shouldn't be the first option.

 

[fishwomp]

Awful little 5-car trains are simply unfit for the nation's mainlines.

100% - we're supposed to have capacity issues on ECML (Welwyn viaduct and elsewhere) - these things are a waste of capacity most of the day.

They belong somewhere between Leeds and Dewsbury.

Parked along with the strategic reserve of steam engines in Morley Tunnel? I thought that was in the Woodhead

 

[Starmill]

So it's hearsay. You may be right but it could be more complicated than that.

Two people in LNER uniform and a third person are all heard in the video to state that the train manager is unwilling to move the train (until they're are?). Little else is shown in the evidence but it seems unlikely all three of those people are mistaken. Of course if the train manager had done the sensible thing and addressed the customer themselves then maybe we'd have a proper answer here.

 

[kingqueen]

The senior manager told me (in the video) that the train manager had been on the phone to colleagues before he arrived and that the decision to not allow repositioning was made as a result. So I suspect the decision was not made by her.

 

[MCR247]

They can and will run a 5 car unit in reverse because cancelling the train would be silly. What they do need to do however is make use of their generally well staffed trains and stations and mitigate it when it causes unexpected issues like this one.

I can absolutely guarantee that a similar issue regarding 8xx wheelchair space provision is occurring elsewhere, with a lot of head scratching going on to try and resolve issues with one ended wheelchair spaces and short platforms on a route where the trains can be any way round owing to reversing moves.

It is not an insurmountable problem, it's just an unusual one. IETs are capable trains - the driver can literally select which individual doors they want to unlock for each station, should they need to do so. Positioning one in out of course situations shouldn't be particularly difficult providing care is taken to do it correctly.

I’d been wondering if 810s would also only have a wheelchair space at one end but hoped they’d go for 2 since it isn’t unusual to have both the standard and first ones reserved on 222s but I guess that was just wishful thinking

 

[Blindtraveler]

I personally don't think that making such a public spectacle of demanding that something is done about this does the disabled travelling community any favors, okay if it was the Highland chieftain or the last train of the year before a lengthy Christmas shutdown necessitating huge diversions or 11 million light years on a replacement bus seated double decker then yes, but as this was the high frequency route to Leeds, what difference would half an hour have made especially if the company had offered a 100% refund and maybe even a taxi from destination to try and make up the time



I must however say and with no offence or disrespect intended to anyone on here who works there, but kings cross as a whole as a station is not the best for passengers with additional needs, you are more often made to feel like an inconvenience than a customer and whilst I acknowledge that station staff were not at fault this time, I find the attitude at London north Eastern railway towards passenger assist and associated issues to be a poor show compared to some can do attitude operators that absolutely do exist

 

[Flying Snail]

A ridiculous and completely unnecessary situation that could and should have been sorted with minimum of fuss.

Whether it was the train manager on their own refusing or someone higher up they contacted, it is their job to deal with these issues and their obvious refusal to talk directly with the passenger they were denying travel to is in itself well below any standard that should be expected.

No doubt had this been a normal wheelchair user rather than someone with various senior railway officials phone numbers at hand they would have been bullied into being left behind.

It should also be questioned as to why this obvious issue with these 5 car sets being inaccessible at Kings Cross when run in reverse formation was not identified and sorted before they were brought into service. An astounding amount of pubic money has been spent on retrofitting accessible infrastructure onto the railway, yet this simple to resolve issue of a badly designed station upgrade interacting with a badly designed modern train at one of the country's major termini has been just ignored.

 

[aaronspence]

Wow the way this guy approaches the problem.. threatening to call the police. Incredible.

Mistakes happen but this is just making disabled people look really bad.

 

[jw]

I personally don't think that making such a public spectacle of demanding that something is done about this does the disabled travelling community any favors, okay if it was the Highland chieftain or the last train of the year before a lengthy Christmas shutdown necessitating huge diversions or 11 million light years on a replacement bus seated double decker then yes, but as this was the high frequency route to Leeds, what difference would half an hour have made especially if the company had offered a 100% refund and maybe even a taxi from destination to try and make up the time

Wow the way this guy approaches the problem.. threatening to call the police. Incredible.

Mistakes happen but this is just making disabled people look really bad.

Why should wheelchair users have to accept a lower quality journey experience? Why shouldn't they advocate for themselves? The idea that a wheelchair user should just accept a delay and not kick up a fuss is part of the problem and is a pretty poor attitude. If this is happening to Doug, who is well informed on legal principles and company policies in this area, and is a strong and vocal advocate, then how many times is it happening unseen and unheard to others?

 

[YorksLad12]

While we're all considering the actions of the staff, passenger and reverse formation, no-one seems to be talking much about the poorly-designed station and platform. Leeds P15 has a couple of narrow points on it, for similar infrastructure reasons. Surely we should be designing stations for all, and all situations?