Wheelchair user unable to board Azuma in reverse configuration at Kings Cross

[bramling]

Very well said



This is a shocking comment. It clearly show your attitude to disabled people. I guess we should hope you are never in this situation in the future.

Ed Chap

It’s quite possible to sympathise with the passenger, be of the view that the way that it was handled was poor, and also think the passenger didn’t approach the matter well either. Threatening to prevent a train leaving is not justified no matter what the issue is.

Had I been the staff then I would have made every effort to sort the situation, but the moment the filming started then I would be walking away, don’t care who he is or what the issue is.

 

[800001]

It’s quite possible to sympathise with the passenger, be of the view that the way that it was handled was poor, and also think the passenger didn’t approach the matter well either. Threatening to prevent a train leaving is not justified no matter what the issue is.

Had I been the staff then I would have made every effort to sort the situation, but the moment the filming started then I would be walking away, don’t care who he is or what the issue is.

He is not breaking any law by filming, and any person who he interacts with is blurred out.
As long as you do your job correctly then there is no issue with the filming.
Could say that works both ways, minute a member of staff tells me there bodycam is filming I’ll walk away?

 

[bramling]

He is not breaking any law by filming, and any person who he interacts with is blurred out.
As long as you do your job correctly then there is no issue with the filming.
Could say that works both ways, minute a member of staff tells me there bodycam is filming I’ll walk away?

I object to being filmed at close range, I find it highly disrespectful. I am none too keen on body cams either for similar reasons.

 

[Hadders]

Generally I’m not keen on body worn cameras or people recording incidents like this. However,

Had it not have been filmed the incident would probably have ‘brushed over’ by management, told it was a one-off etc etc. sometimes things need exposing for what they are because this is the only way attitudes will get changed.

Let’s hope the senior executives at LNER don’t want to see this sort of thing again and do something about it.

 

[dan4291]

I sign Kings Cross and platform 5 is the only platform where this is an issue, due to where they put the escalator after the station was last refurbished (around 2009ish?). As a result, my TOC (not LNER) instruct us to stop adjacent to the clock before the buffer stop rather than at the buffer stop themselves, which avoids this issue that Doug Paulley has had. We use this stopping point at all times, regardless of whether our train is in reverse formation or not.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Wow the way this guy approaches the problem.. threatening to call the police. Incredible.

Mistakes happen but this is just making disabled people look really bad.

This is exactly where I have an issue. The industry will start to think we are all like this and that's not a position that I either relish or want to be in as a passenger with additional needs who frequently travels on long distanced complicated multimodal itineries and whilst yes I'll stand up for my rights, I don't go around with a body cam or smartphone permanently ready to catch out unsuspecting Rail staff, or a contacts list full of senior management phone numbers, or threatening to call the police or whatever else just to get my own way.

 

[yorkie]

Unless anyone has any new information to add, I suggest we leave it there for the time being; we can resume once we have an update, such as the outcome of LNER's investigation.

 

[noddingdonkey]

On a practicality front, I assume that the signaller wouldn't know which way round the set is, so a local instruction not to use that platform for a that kind of stock in reverse formation wouldn't work?

 

[ModernRailways]

This is exactly where I have an issue. The industry will start to think we are all like this and that's not a position that I either relish or want to be in as a passenger with additional needs who frequently travels on long distanced complicated multimodal itineries and whilst yes I'll stand up for my rights, I don't go around with a body cam or smartphone permanently ready to catch out unsuspecting Rail staff, or a contacts list full of senior management phone numbers, or threatening to call the police or whatever else just to get my own way.

I've met Doug before on one of my trains, we had no issues and he was friendly towards myself. As we pulled in, I was flagged down, I walked down, the ramp was deployed, I checked his destination, he boarded, and the ramp got locked away until it was his stop. I didn't end up on Youtube, and as far as I was aware he wasn't filming me, but then there was no issue and I just got on with my job.

I think the bigger thing here is Doug travels frequently, but only a portion of those journeys does he encounter issues. When he does so he, rightfully in my view, switches on the camera for further reporting and logging.

We have a few stations here where the gap can be hit or miss and the height can also be a challenge, a quick call to the driver and a clear understanding reached and we do what needs done. On occasion we might stop just in line with a lamp post, or other such station clutter whereby there isn't enough room to deploy a ramp, if we aren't going to pass a signal, then a clear understanding with the driver and we'll shunt forward after following normal dispatch but instead of 2 I'll give 6, then give 1 when needed. If we were to pass a signal or make it so the platform will be unable to accommodate a unit on top then a call to the signaller would be made and then in 99% of cases the signaller will agree to what needs done and then you will do as I have just said.

 

[RobShipway]

The thing for me is the type of issue that Doug saw has been going on for years with the TOC's, even to the point that train managers would refuse to put down the ramp to allow disabled passengers to enter a train, even though those said passengers had booked seats including the disabled space. I had a similar situation with my Granddad back in 2010 and from watching Doug's video things have not changed!

With the way the world is with pollution, people should be encouraged to travel by train where possible including those people that are disabled.

 

[lachlan]

This is exactly where I have an issue. The industry will start to think we are all like this and that's not a position that I either relish or want to be in as a passenger with additional needs who frequently travels on long distanced complicated multimodal itineries and whilst yes I'll stand up for my rights, I don't go around with a body cam or smartphone permanently ready to catch out unsuspecting Rail staff, or a contacts list full of senior management phone numbers, or threatening to call the police or whatever else just to get my own way.

As a fellow partially sighted person I am happy to see other disabled people call out the railway and its workers for its failings. Why shouldn't he stand up for his rights? Public transport should be for all, not just able-bodied people.

 

[VItraveller]

as a disabled traveller, the video really resonated with me.
knowing the exact solution you need, and understanding that the people around you also understand the common sense solution, but can’t apply it because they’re not empowered to, it’s all very familiar.
Some people have taken Umbridge with his attitude, but I’m glad he did what he did, especially since his channel is full of videos, where his assistance has failed in some spectacular ways, causing him in some cases to be late for booked events by 3 or four hours.
I don’t think many people would accept that on a regular basis, imagine every time you travel by train is a lottery of whether you’ll actually get to your destination, and if you do, there’s a strong possibility that you’ll be much later than you originally anticipated, but you don’t know how late so you can’t plan for it.
As for why he videos interactions, perhaps this blog post will go someway to explain it:

Joe Hendry and Euston assistance staff “Paul”: I’m “Abusive” … or they lied?

In July I attempted to catch the Caledonian Sleeper to Aberdeen. I failed because they hadn’t stowed the upper bunk in the accessible cabin, despite multiple attempts to do so. In the middle …

www.kingqueen.org.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a fellow partially sighted person I am happy to see other disabled people call out the railway and its workers for its failings. Why shouldn't he stand up for his rights? Public transport should be for all, not just able-bodied people.

Precisely. I am not disabled, but equally think the railway gets this VERY wrong, and would like to see more Dougs and more high profile legal cases.

For instance, how isn't level boarding on new trains/stations not legally required, either by statute or precedent, now it's easily possible? Had there been level boarding there'd not have been a problem in this case.

 

[357]

Having worked on stations for years and having assisted thousands of MIPs onto trains, before becoming a driver and seeing it from the other side of the cab door (including a please explain after refusing I depart a station with an MIP who wanted to alight after station staff didn't meet the train with a ramp), I've been watching this thread with interest.

I find it unfortunate that a relatively simple operational procedure to move a train towards a red signal was apparently refused by the guard, however in my experience there are a percentage of staff who are scared to do anything outside of their standard duties in fear of doing something wrong. On this point I'd put the fault on LNER for having staff who either aren't confident to do this stuff or haven't been trained properly. This is wide spread if the TMs colleagues have also told her to refuse. For the guard the dispatch procedure is exactly the same apart from the signal being red and giving six instead of two on the buzzer. The rest is down to the driver and signaller.

Another fault of LNER is the lack of a procedure at Kings Cross when this is a known issue. For other posters I should add that the driver who arrived in the unit might not have even known the train was the wrong way round depending on when he took over, who prepped it, etc. On every unit I've ever signed you wouldn't know it was the wrong way round without looking at the carriage numbers inside the cab. It's not something I ever look at unless I need that specific information.

From the video it looks like the manager was the one who ended up giving 6. In this case there was no reason to tell the passenger that the entire thing couldn't happen based on the guard saying no.

Now lastly, a question to those who work with Azumas, can the ramp only be used at this door? I used to work with stock that didn't have a wheelchair area and the passengers could board at any door. Would a solution have been to use another doorway and then at the first station move to the correct part of the train? I know it's not ideal but it's what my first thought was within seconds of the video starting.

 

[Energy]

Now lastly, a question to those who work with Azumas, can the ramp only be used at this door? I used to work with stock that didn't have a wheelchair area and the passengers could board at any door. Would a solution have been to use another doorway and then at the first station move to the correct part of the train? I know it's not ideal but it's what my first thought was within seconds of the video starting

The 5 car azumas only have a disabled space in first class. The other driving vehicle does have a disabled toilet (an azuma quirk) so the passengers could be put in the vestibule and moved at the next station, though at a 20 minute wait till the next stop (Stevenage) I'd only want it used when the train is already delayed.

From the video it looks like the manager was the one who ended up giving 6. In this case there was no reason to tell the passenger that the entire thing couldn't happen based on the guard saying no.

This is one of the issues in the video, many staff members (including the booked assistance) were quick to say no or that it wasn't possible, when all it needed was the driver & signaller ok and the train manager to perform a normal dispatch but with 6 bells.

I'll hold off further judgement as its unclear whether the train manager's initial choice was their own or it came from management.

 

[Haywain]

Now lastly, a question to those who work with Azumas, can the ramp only be used at this door? I used to work with stock that didn't have a wheelchair area and the passengers could board at any door. Would a solution have been to use another doorway and then at the first station move to the correct part of the train? I know it's not ideal but it's what my first thought was within seconds of the video starting.

It's the only door that accesses the disabled area, and it wouldn't be appropriate to just tell a wheelchair user to sit in a vestibule for an hour or more. The ramp could be used elsewhere but thst would be the result.

 

[kingqueen]

It wouldn't be appropriate to just tell a wheelchair user to sit in a vestibule for an hour or more.

It would have been 20 minutes to the first stop (Stevenage).
It is an interesting point. Probably I would have accepted.
Given that there was plenty of time before booked departure and the draw forward procedure only took a couple of minutes, I think drawing forward would be preferable, including for safety in not having me block an exit. But this alternative would also have worked, if less preferable.

 

[1Q18]

One fundamental issue seems to be that the railway industry is still deploying new fleets of trains without level boarding (with the exception of the Greater Anglia/Merseyrail/TfW Stadler units), which makes the faff of deployment of these clumsy wheelchair ramps necessary, and locking in the problem for decades to come.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I personally don't think that making such a public spectacle of demanding that something is done about this does the disabled travelling community any favors, okay if it was the Highland chieftain or the last train of the year before a lengthy Christmas shutdown necessitating huge diversions or 11 million light years on a replacement bus seated double decker then yes, but as this was the high frequency route to Leeds, what difference would half an hour have made especially if the company had offered a 100% refund and maybe even a taxi from destination to try and make up the time



I must however say and with no offence or disrespect intended to anyone on here who works there, but kings cross as a whole as a station is not the best for passengers with additional needs, you are more often made to feel like an inconvenience than a customer and whilst I acknowledge that station staff were not at fault this time, I find the attitude at London north Eastern railway towards passenger assist and associated issues to be a poor show compared to some can do attitude operators that absolutely do exist

As someone with a disability yourself I am surprised that you think any delay is acceptable because of this particular reason. They could have an important meeting at the other end or be attending an event. Or there could be another wheelchair user on the next train meaning Doug would have to wait another half hour. It’s unacceptable and against accessibility laws.

 

[Haywain]

It would have been 20 minutes to the first stop (Stevenage).

In a perfect world, yes, but if the train then gets caught up in disruption it could potentially be much longer. It may not be likely to happen but can’t be ignored as a possibility.

 

[northernbelle]

Yep, only disabled spaces are in first class, though strangely both ends have a disabled toilet. Presumably it came from the 9 cars having disabled spaces at both ends.

It came from wanting a standard DPTS/DPTF design along with only needing wheelchair spaces at one end in order to achieve the ratio of seats/accessible space required by law. That's not to say an additional wheelchair space in the 5-car DPTS vehicles wouldn't be handy.

It's not without precedence - there are other fleets with UATs and no associated wheelchair space, including the entire 220/221 fleet. The fact that other fleets only provide the 'bare minimum' of UATs required is, in my view, a deficiency of them, not the fleets which achieve better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not without precedence - there are other fleets with UATs and no associated wheelchair space, including the entire 220/221 fleet. The fact that other fleets only provide the 'bare minimum' of UATs required is, in my view, a deficiency of them, not the fleets which achieve better.

With Voyagers it's one for each class. There were going to be three classes when they were specified - First, Standard and Virgin Value (3+2) - and all three would have had wheelchair spaces. Allegedly it is also the case that the tighter pitch and reduced number of tables in the end Standard coach is a legacy of this.

It doesn't make sense to have all of them as accessible, because they are less reliable, and toilet urgency is itself a disability (e.g. Crohn's) - so at least one conventional "slamdoor" toilet is very prudent on a long distance train. Though door faults seem less common on the newer two leaf designs.

 

[Energy]

It came from wanting a standard DPTS/DPTF design along with only needing wheelchair spaces at one end in order to achieve the ratio of seats/accessible space required by law. That's not to say an additional wheelchair space in the 5-car DPTS vehicles wouldn't be handy.

I get why they wanted a standard driving vehicle layout, but I'd also like standard class disabled spaces, particularly as they found the space for the gigantic kitchen on board each 5 car...

It's not without precedence - there are other fleets with UATs and no associated wheelchair space, including the entire 220/221 fleet. The fact that other fleets only provide the 'bare minimum' of UATs required is, in my view, a deficiency of them, not the fleets which achieve better.

Im not against them having multiple UATs, but a UAT without disabled spaces seems rather redundant to me, I'd rather have 2 normal toilets instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Im not against them having multiple UATs, but a UAT without disabled spaces seems rather redundant to me, I'd rather have 2 normal toilets instead.

Which would be better for anyone with a toilet frequency disability (which is for some reason often considered lesser than a more visible one like wheelchair use but is surprisingly common - given that it often comes with old age probably many times more common than wheelchair use).

Indeed the whole nonsense about removing toilets in preference to fitting a UAT is driven by this incorrect assessment of the situation (though to be fair I think with the TfW 153s which always run with a toilet-fitted unit it was also about the cost of fitting retention tanks).

 

[AdamWW]

(though to be fair I think with the TfW 153s which always run with a toilet-fitted unit it was also about the cost of fitting retention tanks).

That was presumably the intention, but the TfW 153/9s, contrary to internal signage indicating that toilets are available in an adjacent carriage, run daily on their own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That was presumably the intention, but the TfW 153/9s, contrary to internal signage indicating that toilets are available in an adjacent carriage, run daily on their own.

Whether this is an issue probably depends rather on where. I can't see that being an issue on the Cardiff Bay Car, but if they're doing Heart of Wales runs on their own (where stations don't have toilets) then that, like Doug's case, really needs someone to be throwing discrimination suits at them for it as it really isn't acceptable.

I've never understood why we as society seem to see toilet disabilities as lesser than more visible ones. There are people who won't leave their home because of it, and that is disgraceful.

 

[lachlan]

I get why they wanted a standard driving vehicle layout, but I'd also like standard class disabled spaces, particularly as they found the space for the gigantic kitchen on board each 5 car...

Im not against them having multiple UATs, but a UAT without disabled spaces seems rather redundant to me, I'd rather have 2 normal toilets instead.

I presume a disabled person who books a standard class ticket will be accommodated in first at no extra cost if their train doesn't happen to have a wheelchair space in standard?

Ideally yes there should be more spaces, perhaps even two spaces together for multiple wheelchair users travelling together

 

[Bletchleyite]

I presume a disabled person who books a standard class ticket will be accommodated in first at no extra cost if their train doesn't happen to have a wheelchair space in standard?

Yes, them and one companion I believe.

 

[kingqueen]

Whether this is an issue probably depends rather on where. I can't see that being an issue on the Cardiff Bay Car, but if they're doing Heart of Wales runs on their own (where stations don't have toilets) then that, like Doug's case, really needs someone to be throwing discrimination suits at them for it as it really isn't acceptable.

I don't think one could bring a discrimination case because of the way the law is constructed.
The construction or choice of Rail vehicles is specifically exempted from the duty to not discriminate or not make reasonable adjustments.
As long as the vehicles are either NTSN-PRM compliant or have relevant derogations, that's that.
Transport for Wales is a public sector body so subject to the Public Sector Equality Duty, but challenges for that have to be made within three months of the decision complained of, so this would be out of time.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I presume a disabled person who books a standard class ticket will be accommodated in first at no extra cost if their train doesn't happen to have a wheelchair space in standard?

Yep. Happened to us - didn't book assistance as my wife's ankle wasn't broken when we booked the tickets. But Avanti staff at Manchester whisked us down to 1st Class as that was the only wheelchair space still available.

So they can get it right.