When and why did tickets stop being issued on trains?

[Fawkes Cat]

It's perhaps worth thinking what a remedy to the current mess would look like. It seems to me that such a remedy would take account of

- most stations (strictly, the stations where a large majority of travellers start) having ticket buying facilities (ticket offices or ticket machines)
- most passengers having a smartphone which you can buy a ticket on*
- most stations having some sort of mobile phone signal
- the oft-repeated desire to 'simplify ticketing'

Given these circumstances, the simple solution would surely be to say that everyone must buy a ticket before boarding unless the railway explicitly gives an exemption (so an exemption could cover stations where you can't get a signal on your smartphone). Simple, but not as flexible as many people on this website would like - and it would expand the requirement to buy a ticket from the current ticket office / machine requirement to having a phone where you can buy a ticket.

* 'Smartphones have become commonplace since the late 2000s, with more than nine in 10 (92%) UK mobile users now owning a smartphone, as of October 2023.' Source: https://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/studies/mobile-statistics/.

 

[mangyiscute]

It's perhaps worth thinking what a remedy to the current mess would look like. It seems to me that such a remedy would take account of

- most stations (strictly, the stations where a large majority of travellers start) having ticket buying facilities (ticket offices or ticket machines)
- most passengers having a smartphone which you can buy a ticket on*
- most stations having some sort of mobile phone signal
- the oft-repeated desire to 'simplify ticketing'

Given these circumstances, the simple solution would surely be to say that everyone must buy a ticket before boarding unless the railway explicitly gives an exemption (so an exemption could cover stations where you can't get a signal on your smartphone). Simple, but not as flexible as many people on this website would like - and it would expand the requirement to buy a ticket from the current ticket office / machine requirement to having a phone where you can buy a ticket.

* 'Smartphones have become commonplace since the late 2000s, with more than nine in 10 (92%) UK mobile users now owning a smartphone, as of October 2023.' Source: https://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/studies/mobile-statistics/.

To be honest I don't think something like that would fix the problem. On a lot of rural lines people expect to be able to pay on the train because that's how it's always been done, and the vast majority of staff on these lines will happily sell tickets on the train because that's how it's always been done.
In order to change the system, you would have to have a massive promotional campaign clearly telling passengers what the changes are, and also tell all of the staff to be very harsh on anyone who doesn't follow the new rules - that's the only way the new rules could get through to the majority of people.

 

[Deerfold]

In West Yorkshire a lot of ticket offices closed in the 1980s (along with new, smaller stations opening (or reopening) without ever having had one) and BR at the time heavily advertised Paytrains - the only way to travel was to pay on the train (they then added Saverstrip machines, but you weren't penalised for not using these and they were often out of commission (at my local stop someone seemed to like pouring concrete into them)).

For a decade or two people got very used to paying on the train - for those who didn't keep catching trains regularly, it's understandable that they may not have realised that things have changed - I'd argue that even the penalty fare notices aren't as obvious as the old paytrain posters were.

 

[WestAnglian]

There do however seem to be cases where someone has boarded a train, bought a ticket online and is then accused of buying a ticket after the train departed.

Yes, as was said upthread. Some wait until they see tickets being checked before they buy because they're hoping they will get away with it, and they often do. If there's a requirement to buy before you board then why not do so? I tend to buy online the day before.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Historically, it was the norm to purchase at a ticket office. Tickets were not sold on trains. More recently, they were sold on some trains to passengers boarding at unstaffed stations. Such journeys were only a small minority out of total passenger traffic.

People who claim not to have purchased before boarding because they believe doing so on board is the norm, will in most cases struggle to find evidence in support of that belief.

As a regular passenger, one constantly sees people paying only when challenged. Sometimes guards issue tickets with a warning that it should have been purchased before boarding to which the passenger responds "I didn`t know that", exactly the same excuse they gave the previous day.

Some stations lack adequate facilities. Some have a ticket machine on only one platform which is some distance away for passengers going in the other direction. At a few stations, access to the sole ticket machine is by awkward steps of by a level crossing. Sometimes ticket machines don`t work. Some are impossible to use in bright sunlight.

There are no ticket machines at stations Gargrave to Wennington/ Armathwaite. There it is normal to pay on the train and there are no penalty fares. One should purchase at Settle and Appleby ticket offices when they are open but there are still no penalty fares for not doing.

The proportion of railway passengers joining at stations such as these is tiny. Elsewhere, it`s difficult to see how anybody can find a valid reason to believe that it is normal to pay on the train - other than to reduce the chance of having to pay at all.

Sometimes the railway is wrong to penalise passengers who for good reason have not purchased before boarding. Most staff will deal with genuine situations properly but we know there are exceptions and these ought to be stamped on.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There is only one ticket machine at Headingley which is on the Leeds bound platform. There is no machine on the Harrogate side. Most passengers enter on the Harrogate side and, if bound for Harrogate, have to cross the line twice to use the machine.

No they can use web/app

 

[Craig1122]

Network South East introduced Penalty Fares from 1989 onwards, starting with London Tilbury & Southend then spreading rapidly on a route by route basis. Given that's now 35 years ago it's hard to see how anyone in the South East can still claim to be under the misapprehension that pay on train is allowed as the norm.

It's also easier than it's ever been to buy a ticket as there's no longer the need to queue for a ticket office or fumble around with change for machines.

 

[Hassocks5489]

Just as a historical point of reference, having seen a mention of it above: the PORTIS (= PORtable Ticket Issuing System) on-train ticket issuing machine was introduced, in prototype form, on 3 May 1982 on trains in the Bristol area. After a number of refinements, the "proper" version of the machine was brought into service on the Watford Junction–St Albans Abbey line from 7 July 1986. When they were modified to read credit/debit cards (by swiping), they were renamed SPORTIS: "Super Portable Ticket Issuing System".

 

[redreni]

It's also easier than it's ever been to buy a ticket

It's fair enough, of course, for forum users to say this. There's some truth to it as a generalisation.

The railway has made it appreciably harder than once it was to buy the right ticket, though. Even for simple, short, routine journeys in my local area, there are different fares depending if you use PAYG or tickets. Peak fares are charged at off-peak times to deter people from buying tickets where PAYG is available, but the PAYG fares don't allow Network Railcard discounts. So one has to compare PAYG singles against Anytime day returns against over-distance off-peak day returns (which can only be bought at ticket offices or online as the TVMs block the same of tickets from other stations).

It is also quite infuriating to arrive at a station during the ticket office's advertised opening hours to find the ticket office closed, the TVM either out of service or configured not to sell you the ticket you require and the walls of the ticket office adorned with signs informing you that 'it has never been easier to buy a ticket'. Alongside the crude threats of a penalty fare or prosecution, of course.

Perhaps I'm turning into a grumpy old man, but could we not have signs that are sufficient to meet the requirements of the penalty fares scheme, but which are no more aggressive in their tone than is absolutely necessary for that purpose? Signs that tell you what to do if you can't buy the ticket you need at the station?

There is a real need for this because people who turn up expecting to use the ticket office or TVM who find themselves unable to use either, may well start the process of buying a ticket on their phone but be unable to complete the purchase before the train arrives. I appreciate people who use this forum will probably understand why that's not allowed, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to guess that the railway will, in practice, treat a paying customer who completed their ticket purchase a minute or two after boarding much more harshly than one who simply took a short video documenting the lack of suitable ticket purchasing facilities and then travelled without a ticket.

 

[Benjwri]

It's fair enough, of course, for forum users to say this. There's some truth to it as a generalisation.

The railway has made it appreciably harder than once it was to buy the right ticket, though. Even for simple, short, routine journeys in my local area, there are different fares depending if you use PAYG or tickets. Peak fares are charged at off-peak times to deter people from buying tickets where PAYG is available, but the PAYG fares don't allow Network Railcard discounts. So one has to compare PAYG singles against Anytime day returns against over-distance off-peak day returns (which can only be bought at ticket offices or online as the TVMs block the same of tickets from other stations).

It is also quite infuriating to arrive at a station during the ticket office's advertised opening hours to find the ticket office closed, the TVM either out of service or configured not to sell you the ticket you require and the walls of the ticket office adorned with signs informing you that 'it has never been easier to buy a ticket'. Alongside the crude threats of a penalty fare or prosecution, of course.

Perhaps I'm turning into a grumpy old man, but could we not have signs that are sufficient to meet the requirements of the penalty fares scheme, but which are no more aggressive in their tone than is absolutely necessary for that purpose? Signs that tell you what to do if you can't buy the ticket you need at the station?

There is a real need for this because people who turn up expecting to use the ticket office or TVM who find themselves unable to use either, may well start the process of buying a ticket on their phone but be unable to complete the purchase before the train arrives. I appreciate people who use this forum will probably understand why that's not allowed, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to guess that the railway will, in practice, treat a paying customer who completed their ticket purchase a minute or two after boarding much more harshly than one who simply took a short video documenting the lack of suitable ticket purchasing facilities and then travelled without a ticket.

To be clear in your area they will not sell you an off peak ticket onboard when there were no ticket purchasing facilities at your origin? That’s a clear breach of NRCOT and you should raise a complaint and escalate if needed.

 

[Craig1122]

It's fair enough, of course, for forum users to say this. There's some truth to it as a generalisation.

Absolutely agreed that plenty of things are far from satisfactory. However to give the example of my local station, post privatisation there was one ticket window and 2 cash only machines selling tickets for a limited range of destinations. To buy a ticket in the morning peak you would have needed to arrive a minimum of 10 minutes before your train. Unexpected closures within the advertised hours were still very much a thing except that you didn't have the chance of finding out in advance online that it was closed.

Now we have 3 touch screen machines selling almost any ticket including for future dates, smart card readers and a whole plethora of apps and websites. As a result the morning rush hour queues have completely vanished. I do think that sometimes people forget just how bad things were for queues at certain stations and the resultant uncertainty that brought.

 

[JonathanH]

To be clear in your area they will not sell you an off peak ticket onboard when there were no ticket purchasing facilities at your origin? That’s a clear breach of NRCOT and you should raise a complaint and escalate if needed.

The point the previous poster is making is that in the London PAYG area off-peak 'paper' tickets were withdrawn (in 2010) so the only 'paper' tickets are equivalent to PAYG peak fares. There is only one set of 'paper' fares which can be offered. No one buys on board in that area.

 

[Haywain]

To be clear in your area they will not sell you an off peak ticket onboard

Correct. No ticket sales on board trains. They're DOO around my way.

 

[redreni]

The point the previous poster is making is that in the London PAYG area off-peak 'paper' tickets were withdrawn (in 2010) so the only 'paper' tickets are equivalent to PAYG peak fares. There is only one set of 'paper' fares which can be offered. No one buys on board in that area.

To be honest I haven't tried boarding at Slade Green and heading west, then trying to buy a Network Railcard discounted off-peak day return from Dartford to my destination (let's say Bromley North) either from an RPI (there are no guards) or at Grove Park or at Bromley North.

I believe I would technically be entitled to do so, but I bet you £100 I would not be allowed to. They would want to know why I didn't buy it at Dartford and if I said "because I got on at Slade Green" they would want to know why I didn't buy it at Slade Green.

If I said "because I wanted an off-peak ticket" they would, at that point, have lost the argument and should sell me the ticket I'd asked for. I haven't tried it so couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't. I am not about to find out, though.

The only option, if the ticket office is closed (and it shuts at midday on Saturday and doesn't open again until Monday), is to buy online. The TVM does not permit you to vary the origin. So if you want to pay in cash or RTVs you're stuck.

 

[Starmill]

To be honest I haven't tried boarding at Slade Green and heading west, then trying to buy a Network Railcard discounted off-peak day return from Dartford to my destination (let's say Bromley North) either from an RPI (there are no guards) or at Grove Park or at Bromley North.

I believe I would technically be entitled to do so, but I bet you £100 I would not be allowed to. They would want to know why I didn't buy it at Dartford and if I said "because I got on at Slade Green" they would want to know why I didn't buy it at Slade Green.

If I said "because I wanted an off-peak ticket" they would, at that point, have lost the argument and should sell me the ticket I'd asked for. I haven't tried it so couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't. I am not about to find out, though.

The only option, if the ticket office is closed (and it shuts at midday on Saturday and doesn't open again until Monday), is to buy online. The TVM does not permit you to vary the origin. So if you want to pay in cash or RTVs you're stuck.

If the TVM is working, you could buy the ticket on your phone and then have it delivered by ToD?

If the TVM isn't working I'd just take a photo of it showing it not working, and board the train, paying onboard (very unlikely in the case of Slade Green) or at my destination.

If there's an argument at the destination, which I agree is likely, I'd just pay whatever to get the argument over and done with then also buy the correct ticket right away, and a request a refund for the extra I'd paid. This would be time-consuming writing letters and appeals to the Rail Ombudsman, but at least I'd get where I were going in a more timely manner, and likely be proven to be right in the end.

 

[plugwash]

Historically, it was the norm to purchase at a ticket office. Tickets were not sold on trains. More recently, they were sold on some trains to passengers boarding at unstaffed stations. Such journeys were only a small minority out of total passenger traffic.

As well as rural stations with no ticket office at all there were/are many stations in northern suburbia where the ticket office only opens for part of the day, and is staffed by a single member of staff who may not be at their post for various reasons. So commuters would usually (but not always) find an open ticket office, but leisure travellers often would not.

Some stations lack adequate facilities. Some have a ticket machine on only one platform which is some distance away for passengers going in the other direction. At a few stations, access to the sole ticket machine is by awkward steps of by a level crossing. Sometimes ticket machines don`t work. Some are impossible to use in bright sunlight.

In particular round where I live, ticket office opening hours have reduced, while TVMs have been installed at nearly every station.

The problem is, as is usual on the modern railway this has been half-assed. There is no signage to tell you where the TVM is (or if you are really lucky where the TVMs are). No gaurantee that the TVM will be in working order. No gaurantee that the TVM will sell the full range of tickets.. No updates to the station maps on NRE, There *are* signs for the ticket offices, but as I mentioned before their opening hours are quite limited.

Oh and the TVMs don't take cash, so if you want to pay with cash you have to do the whole "promise to pay" rigmarole.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you wanted to buy a physical ticket but there was no working machine which accepted your preferred method of payment then of course you can buy when the opportunity does present.

If however you board a train and say "oh I'll just buy online" when the guard asks for your ticket then you already had the opportunity to buy before you boarded as that phone was already in your bag before you got on.

I don’t understand the point being made here. A phone is not an opportunity to pay under the law, and it is not an offence to buy on board (either from staff or on your mobile phone) if you get on at a station with no ticket issuing facilities.

 

[redreni]

I don’t understand the point being made here. A phone is not an opportunity to pay under the law, and it is not an offence to buy on board (either from staff or on your mobile phone) if you get on at a station with no ticket issuing facilities.

Agreed. The belief that buying an e-ticket after boarding is an offence is rife, but if you expected to have an opportunity to buy at the station but, when it came down to it, you didn't (faulty TVM, or the ticket you wanted wasn't available from the TVM, or the ticket office was supposed to be open but wasn't) then it is very difficult to see why you're not entitled to buy on your phone, even if the process of buying on your phone takes you longer than it would have taken you to buy at a ticket office or TVM and you don't complete the transaction until after the train has left.

I understand the reasoning that, if you choose to buy a ticket on your phone, then you could and should have done so earlier. But you may have wanted to pay cash at the station. You may have a general policy of using the ticket office wherever possible, lest the Secretary of State gets the misimpression that nobody will notice if he closes the ticket office and de-staffs the station.

Because I know how an RPI would be likely to react if I presented an e-ticket purchased after the train departed, I would abandon any attempt to buy an e-ticket on my phone at the point the train arrives and I would board the train without a ticket. But it is hardly surprising that many people wouldn't. Particularly when there are signs all over the place saying you must have a ticket (often failing to qualify that by pointing out that you don't need one if an opportunity to buy the ticket you want hasn't yet been provided).

 

[BanburyBlue]

It's perhaps worth thinking what a remedy to the current mess would look like. It seems to me that such a remedy would take account of

- most stations (strictly, the stations where a large majority of travellers start) having ticket buying facilities (ticket offices or ticket machines)
- most passengers having a smartphone which you can buy a ticket on*
- most stations having some sort of mobile phone signal
- the oft-repeated desire to 'simplify ticketing'

Given these circumstances, the simple solution would surely be to say that everyone must buy a ticket before boarding unless the railway explicitly gives an exemption (so an exemption could cover stations where you can't get a signal on your smartphone). Simple, but not as flexible as many people on this website would like - and it would expand the requirement to buy a ticket from the current ticket office / machine requirement to having a phone where you can buy a ticket.

* 'Smartphones have become commonplace since the late 2000s, with more than nine in 10 (92%) UK mobile users now owning a smartphone, as of October 2023.' Source: https://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/studies/mobile-statistics/.

I think the one to add is to stop allowing people to buy tickets on board, and start charging penalty fares (and this includes allowing guards/train managers to issue PFs).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You may have a general policy of using the ticket office wherever possible, lest the Secretary of State gets the misimpression that nobody will notice if he closes the ticket office and de-staffs the station.

I'd be interested to see evidence of the courts (or indeed anyone else) accepting 'because I don't want to' as a valid reason not to comply with the rules.

 

[redreni]

I'd be interested to see evidence of the courts (or indeed anyone else) accepting 'because I don't want to' as a valid reason not to comply with the rules.

Who's saying that?

 

[LowLevel]

I think the one to add is to stop allowing people to buy tickets on board, and start charging penalty fares (and this includes allowing guards/train managers to issue PFs).

I don't want to start charging penalty fares. The guard's job is overwhelmingly customer service and then safety related. Putting them in the path of constant conflict by having them as lone workers trying to charge a 3 figure sum to everyone boarding without a ticket would be horrendous. The UK's social culture is not particularly suited to that, unlike places like Germany or the Netherlands.

I think I'd just go down the path of addressing penalty fares to Mr Donald Duck or Mrs Sod Off, or whatever other nonsense is given, and move on.

 

[pedr]

I wonder how the overall cost of revenue protection would change if instead of barriers and barrier staff, roaming RPIs, back-room investigators, and the administration of penalty fares and prosecutions etc, the norm was that trains were staffed such that every passenger had their ticket checked on every journey. That might mean 2 or 3 on board staff on some services, but getting everyone to pay the right amount (and fixing out of date railcards etc) as they travel rather than the random and inconsistent experience passengers have at the moment would be much better customer service and might get more revenue from the habitual non-payer who avoids detection, gives false details etc.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I don't want to start charging penalty fares. The guard's job is overwhelmingly customer service and then safety related. Putting them in the path of constant conflict by having them as lone workers trying to charge a 3 figure sum to everyone boarding without a ticket would be horrendous. The UK's social culture is not particularly suited to that, unlike places like Germany or the Netherlands.

I think I'd just go down the path of addressing penalty fares to Mr Donald Duck or Mrs Sod Off, or whatever other nonsense is given, and move on.

I can understand that. But I guess the question is how do you square the circle on having a rule that says you must buy a ticket before you board (where facilities exist), where people don't and on Monday the guard sells them a ticket, and Tuesday a Revenue Protection person gives them a penalty fare?

 

[LowLevel]

I can understand that. But I guess the question is how do you square the circle on having a rule that says you must buy a ticket before you board (where facilities exist), where people don't and on Monday the guard sells them a ticket, and Tuesday a Revenue Protection person gives them a penalty fare?

I know, it's particularly rubbish and inconsistent and I don't really have the answer! Penalty fares in rural areas make little no sense as enforcement will be practically zero.

 

[Hadders]

I wonder how the overall cost of revenue protection would change if instead of barriers and barrier staff, roaming RPIs, back-room investigators, and the administration of penalty fares and prosecutions etc, the norm was that trains were staffed such that every passenger had their ticket checked on every journey. That might mean 2 or 3 on board staff on some services, but getting everyone to pay the right amount (and fixing out of date railcards etc) as they travel rather than the random and inconsistent experience passengers have at the moment would be much better customer service and might get more revenue from the habitual non-payer who avoids detection, gives false details etc.

It might sound attractive but I doubt it would work commercially.

How are you going to get effective ticket checks done on a 12-car Thameslink train, even with many members of staff on board?
Then there's the cost of the extra staff, their 'on-costs', training, uniforms, equipment etc. Add the cost of extra supervisory and management staff.

 

[Watershed]

How are you going to get effective ticket checks done on a 12-car Thameslink train, even with many members of staff on board?

In fairness it works abroad, even on double decker stock. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[Haywain]

In fairness it works abroad, even on double decker stock. Where there's a will, there's a way.

I don't think any of us know enough about revenue protection in other countries to make a fair comparison. And 12-car Thameslink trains do get ticket checked.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

One thing that is particularly obvious in this discussion is the extent to which people's views on ticket selling/revenue protection are highly influenced by personal experience within a certain area/region. In truth I don't think there has ever been a wholly consistent system on this country's railways since the opening of deliberately non-staffed halts.

I am old enough to have come across many different ways of dealing with the issue. The ideal is probably to have booking offices and TVMs at every station with barriers to the platforms too though whether those barriers consist of a machine, possibly remotely monitored, or a person doesn't necessarily matter. Of course on-line purchases of e-tickets have a valuable role to play: unfortunately it will be many years before the minority who resist using them has shrunk enough to enable the doing away with physical purchasing opportunities. In any case such an ideal set-up would be far too expensive in many situations.

Nevertheless growing up on the South Western Division of BR that's what I tended to find (without the TVMs) until I started using the North Downs Line: this was a Paytrain route but the normal trains used (Class 206 Tadpoles) weren't fully gangwayed meaning it was impossible for the guard to reach every passenger. Even worse in the days before Portis the ticket machines were a simple bus ticket type (Almex I believe) and like bus tickets of the day could only show (2-digit) numerical codes for origin and destination so only tickets for journeys on the route could even be sold. I guess this was also the case on most other Paytrain routes.

The BR policy from the 1980s was the disastrous Open Stations policy which did away with all barriers to platforms (ad-hoc checks could still happen at the biggest stations) as well as reducing booking office coverage, either by reduced hours or complete closure, with an almost complete reliance on on-board checks (and sales on the ever widening Paytrain network) even on Inter-City trains. And on-board ticket checks very often were more an opportunity for interaction with passengers than for revenue protection. The number of other station staff was also pared back. This was a response to Government insistence on significant cost-cutting with staffing reductions always being the method preferred by Tory ministers. But on-going IR issues left the remaining staff thoroughly demotivated so revenue protection was generally rather poor. It also created a whole generation (perhaps even two) of passengers who would only pay when challenged.

Only with (quasi) privatisation did the railway start to refocus on effective revenue protection as projected ticket sales were a key part of franchise bids. But of course each franchisee was free to come up with its own preferred method of revenue generation/protection leading to the current confusing mess. And some franchises have been slower than others at getting up to speed on the matter (looking at you Northern). It is little wonder that the issue causes so much angst here. But just like ticketing reform be careful what you wish for. I don't think a one size fits all approach will ever be realistic. Perhaps the best we can hope for is better training (of staff) and communication (to the public).

 

[Hadders]

To add to what I said upthread it's much better to deter people from travelling without a tickets than to catch them without one. If train companies would make more money from having more revenue inspectors then they would do it. There are regaular surveys to measure the amount of ticketless travel so the industry knows the size of the issue.

A good revenue protection regime involves three main parts:

Education about the need for a ticket - e.g. notices and publicity and making it easy to buy a ticket
Deterring - announcements and notices on trains and at stations. A visible staff presence also has a part to play
Enforcement - ticket checks and dealing appropriately with people without tickets

Ticket barriers have a role in both deterring and enforcement.

It's impractical and not cost effective to enforce all of the time but good education and deterring are a big part of maximising revenue and much cheaper to implement.

Remeber the main purpose of checking tickets is to maximise revenue, it's not to catch people and put them through the courts. Sometimes you do have to do that as part of an effective deterrent but it's expensive and time consuming to do so and even if they are found guilty at court there is no guarantee they will pay their fine - the rail company only gets compensation for the fare avoided when the person pays up.

I'll repeat what I've said several times before about why return tickets are often only 10p or £1 more than a single. It is a brilliant way of maximising revenue. There are at least six opportunities to check a tickets on a typical return journey:

On the outward journey at the starting station
Onboard during the outward journey
At the station at the end of the outward journey
On the return journey at the starting station
Onboard during the return journey
At the station at the end of the return journey

As long as one of these checks takes place the railway will recover it's money. It's a very simple and effective piece of revenue protection. Moves to single leg pricing mean it won't hold true in the same way though although the use of online ticketing, etickets and smartcards opens up a whole load of new ways to identify offenders.