When do overnight possessions/engineering work get confirmed?

[ivorytoast28]

I'm hoping to use the 24hr thameslink on the 20th July but the nationalrail journeyplanner still is showing as unconfirmed journey

 

[hexagon789]

I'm hoping to use the 24hr thameslink on the 20th July but the nationalrail journeyplanner still is showing as unconfirmed journey

I believe I read that engineering possessions are nornally planned 26 weeks in advance.

 

[ivorytoast28]

I believe I read that engineering possessions are nornally planned 26 weeks in advance.

Thanks, So it should have been decided by now? Where can I confirm that there isn't any engineering works as nationalrailenquires still shows it as:

We don't yet know if this journey will be affected by engineering work.

Please check back closer to the time of travel.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks, So it should have been decided by now? Where can I confirm that there isn't any engineering works as nationalrailenquires still shows it as:

Well, I'm sure someone will be along to correct/ammend what I'm saying if I've understood wrongly, but my basic understanding is that engineering possessions are "drawn-up" if you like and put in a document called the Confirmed Period Possession Plan. This document is published 26 weeks before the planned work within it, AIUI.

That's where I got the 26 weeks from.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Engineering works are confirmed 26 weeks in advance, although that doesn't include decisions and late notice possessions.

But the timetable around engineering works currently doesn't get confirmed until 6 weeks in advance, and sometimes it can be even less than 6 weeks in advance if operators are bidding late.

 

[The Planner]

Well, I'm sure someone will be along to correct/ammend what I'm saying if I've understood wrongly, but my basic understanding is that engineering possessions are "drawn-up" if you like and put in a document called the Control Period Possession Plan. This document is published 26 weeks before the planned work within it, AIUI.

That's where I got the 26 weeks from.

Close. Confirmed Period Possession Plan or CPPP.

 

[hexagon789]

Close. Confirmed Period Possession Plan or CPPP.

Sorry, I think I've seen "Control Period" as well and mixed up the names, thanks for putting me right! Was I correct about the timescale?

 

[The Planner]

Sorry, I think I've seen "Control Period" as well and mixed up the names, thanks for putting me right! Was I correct about the timescale?

Yep

 

[Ploughman]

As a track renewals contractor to Network Rail, we used to have to submit our possession requests 52 weeks out.
Sometimes for big disruptive jobs, possessions and key resource requests could be planned in about 5 years out.

 

[717001]

This page on NRE is useful https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/254145.aspx

Engineering pages might be correct longer ahead, but it currently states for Thameslink, that journey planners are up to date until (NB final comment):

Saturday:
9 July

Sunday:
10 July

Monday to Friday:
15 July

Notes and exceptions:
Alterations because of engineering work on Mondays to Fridays may not be shown until 12:00 on the day before the timetable operates

 

[Romsey]

The 26 weeks Confirmed Period Possession Plan is to allow time for the TOC's to plan their service alterations, for them to be validated and uploaded to TSDB and all the down stream systems 12 weeks before operation (Informed Traveller timescales.)

OK I know Informed Traveller Timescales are still an aim rather than a fact for part of the country, but I gather much of the network is getting back to those timescales.

There are late notice engineering works alterations, but anything which disrupts the planned service has to be agreed at a high level within NR, often Route Director level. This is to stop engineers, making use of staff and equipment because they are spare, but any change would wreck the engineering works plan. I have seen engineering functions get very upset then they couldn't have an additional block. It was pointed out that the extra possession would block the only route to site for material trains for their high profile 52 hour multiline multi part possession. Suddenly the request was dropped.

Then s### happens, a cable arcs out taking out the traction current supply, lining in a tunnel is dislodged or there are unexpected earthmovements.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The 26 weeks Confirmed Period Possession Plan is to allow time for the TOC's to plan their service alterations, for them to be validated and uploaded to TSDB and all the down stream systems 12 weeks before operation (Informed Traveller timescales.)

OK I know Informed Traveller Timescales are still an aim rather than a fact for part of the country, but I gather much of the network is getting back to those timescales.

There are late notice engineering works alterations, but anything which disrupts the planned service has to be agreed at a high level within NR, often Route Director level. This is to stop engineers, making use of staff and equipment because they are spare, but any change would wreck the engineering works plan. I have seen engineering functions get very upset then they couldn't have an additional block. It was pointed out that the extra possession would block the only route to site for material trains for their high profile 52 hour multiline multi part possession. Suddenly the request was dropped.

Then s### happens, a cable arcs out taking out the traction current supply, lining in a tunnel is dislodged or there are unexpected earthmovements.

Informed traveller at 12 weeks


Its 6 weeks now for publishing, and I can't see it ever pushing out much further ever again.

 

[The Planner]

Informed traveller at 12 weeks


Its 6 weeks now for publishing, and I can't see it ever pushing out much further ever again.

It won't ever get back to 12 but it will get past 6.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It won't ever get back to 12 but it will get past 6.

Yeah, from my understanding 8 weeks is where it will likely settle in the future.

 

[The Planner]

Yeah, from my understanding 8 weeks is where it will likely settle in the future.

Already decided.

 

[SteveHFC]

Informed traveller at 12 weeks


Its 6 weeks now for publishing, and I can't see it ever pushing out much further ever again.

It's 8 weeks for publishing, and I know this as I'm the person who publishes the Informed Traveller schedules for my team at NR each Friday. Certainly no plans at the moment to get back to publishing at 12 weeks out - and from what I've been told, there is a significant chance it'll remain at 8 weeks on a permanent basis.

Thing to remember regarding engineering works is that there can be late notice possessions at any time if something breaks on the infrastructure, and there are numerous late notice possessions (possessions confirmed after the CPPP has been published) going into the system on a daily basis.

 

[The Planner]

It's 8 weeks for publishing, and I know this as I'm the person who publishes the Informed Traveller schedules for my team at NR each Friday. Certainly no plans at the moment to get back to publishing at 12 weeks out - and from what I've been told, there is a significant chance it'll remain at 8 weeks on a permanent basis.

Thing to remember regarding engineering works is that there can be late notice possessions at any time if something breaks on the infrastructure, and there are numerous late notice possessions (possessions confirmed after the CPPP has been published) going into the system on a daily basis.

Nothing significant about the chance, it will be 8 weeks.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It's 8 weeks for publishing, and I know this as I'm the person who publishes the Informed Traveller schedules for my team at NR each Friday. Certainly no plans at the moment to get back to publishing at 12 weeks out - and from what I've been told, there is a significant chance it'll remain at 8 weeks on a permanent basis.

Thing to remember regarding engineering works is that there can be late notice possessions at any time if something breaks on the infrastructure, and there are numerous late notice possessions (possessions confirmed after the CPPP has been published) going into the system on a daily basis.

Thought I typed 8, whoops!

But same principal applies.

 

[MedwayValiant]

This discussion relates to something that has been going round my head for the last 24 hours.

There will be some sections of railway for which engineering work is booked in to happen on Saturday 25 June. That engineering work will still happen since the people who do that work will not be on strike, and contracts to operate replacement bus services will be in place.

Can the affected TOCs at this point look to cancel those replacement bus services on the basis that the train services into which they are intended to connect won't be running? Or will people who had planned to use those sections of railway get lucky, and the replacement bus services will operate as planned?

 

[The Planner]

This discussion relates to something that has been going round my head for the last 24 hours.

There will be some sections of railway for which engineering work is booked in to happen on Saturday 25 June. That engineering work will still happen since the people who do that work will not be on strike, and contracts to operate replacement bus services will be in place.

Can the affected TOCs at this point look to cancel those replacement bus services on the basis that the train services into which they are intended to connect won't be running? Or will people who had planned to use those sections of railway get lucky, and the replacement bus services will operate as planned?

There is no guarentee the works will take place at all. You still need singallers to get trains to/from/in/out of the works. If boxes are working 0700-1900 as suggested those trains won't be running.

 

[Ploughman]

There is no guarentee the works will take place at all. You still need singallers to get trains to/from/in/out of the works. If boxes are working 0700-1900 as suggested those trains won't be running.

Will the Engineering train drivers be on strike as well?

 

[The Planner]

Will the Engineering train drivers be on strike as well?

They work for FOCs, so depends on how they are treating the action.