When should you self-evacuate a train

[TurbostarFan]

Hello, I would like to know when it is safer to self-evacuate a train than to remain on board when there is no guard or driver available to ask for permission following a derailment or collision? By that I mean a scenario which has left the driver incapacitated and the guard is either incapacitated or no guard is present on board.

 

[Larry Trapp]

It's usually safer to remain on the train but this is a difficult one, not least because every situation is so so different.

It depends on whats happened, where it's happened, is there any hazards from egressing i.e. Live rail / live ohle / other trains running / sheer drop.

The list goes on.

If it was a fire and the train was platformed I'd egress, else I would try and assess the situation. If no staff and I had signal id dial 999.

 

[muz379]

Its going to be fairly difficult to give a categorical list of scenarios .

The general principle is only to self evacuate if it is unsafe to remain on the train and you are in less danger evacuating .

Clearly if the train is on fire and it is spreading and violent enough to pose a risk to passengers lives with no way into an alternative unaffected carriage it is always going to be safer to egress the train and move away from it .

In a situation when the train has struck an obstruction and brought wires down even with the driver incapacitated and no guard provided its going to be safer to remain on the train until help arrives .

 

[JN114]

You should only self-evacuate when your life is in immediate serious danger, and moving to another carriage isn’t possible or any better.

 

[Mag_seven]

I don't really think this can be boiled down to a "one size fits all" solution - you must apply common sense in such a situation.

 

[big all]

as above only consider if staying on board is more dangerous
remember at least one passenger will have a phone
phone emergency 999 and state you last station next station they will contact the railway control direct by recognised route
remember you detrain you then make yourself by default the person in charge
so do you have the organization skills the levels off knowlege about dangers and safe evacuation and safe location to go to via a safe route
remember you can possibly drop down 6ft easilly many cant

 

[TheEdge]

Flaming inferno where the option is leave the train or incinerate is probably the only situation where self evacuation is the best option. And I suppose if you and the whole train are lying on its side in a field next to the line.

Otherwise stay on board.

 

[cf111]

If it was a situation like recently at Uphall where two units uncoupled and the rear one was left at the platform I would be opening the doors.

 

[underbank]

Isn't all this "wait and call 999" risking a Grenfell scenario?

Personally, I'd get out. I know enough to know an electrified third rail when I see one, likewise overhead wires. Similarly, I'd look before, to make sure the escape route was OK, i.e. not a steep embankment, etc. Just common sense really to check what you're going to jump/step onto.

I'd far rather get away from the train as you never know what's going to happen next, i.e. there may be another 100mph about to crash into it (if it's derailed and straddling the other track).

 

[EM2]

I know enough to know an electrified third rail when I see one, likewise overhead wires.

Do you know enough to know them in the dark, or the rain or snow?
Could you differentiate between a 25kV cable lying on the ground and a point heater cable, for example?
Have you walked on ballast and sleepers much? Especially greasy, slippery sleepers?

 

[TheEdge]

Personally, I'd get out. I know enough to know an electrified third rail when I see one, likewise overhead wires.

So you can name to me and describe the one piece of OHL lineside equipment which sits on the ground and can, in certain circumstances, and an incident where evacuation is an option could be one, can be energised up to the full 25kV?

I'd far rather get away from the train as you never know what's going to happen next, i.e. there may be another 100mph about to crash into it (if it's derailed and straddling the other track).

If, if, if. As a passenger you don't know these ifs and can't really judge them. I had a very serious incident as a guard where people self evacuated from a damaged but otherwise safe train onto a still open 90mph line...

 

[Intermodal]

I'd far rather get away from the train as you never know what's going to happen next, i.e. there may be another 100mph about to crash into it (if it's derailed and straddling the other track).

I can honestly relate to this view.

My counterpoint would be that there are safety systems and procedures set up to deal with this exact scenario and every safety-critical member of train crew knows the very first thing they must do in the event of a train accident is check if any other lines are blocked, and if they are, stop trains on the affected lines. With GSMR nowadays this is an instant process at the press of a button. There is the slight grey area where you derail right into an oncoming service that doesn't have a chance to stop - in that case it is unlikely you'd have time to evacuate beforehand anyway and it'd probably be safer to be on the train when it is hit rather than next to the train.

There is also the issue of both members of safety critical staff being unconscious. I find the likelyhood of this happening very small and if it does happen then is probable that this incident has left you unable to evacuate anyway. You cannot account for every scenario but for the scenarios we can account for it is certainly safer to remain on the train.

 

[Intermodal]

If, if, if. As a passenger you don't know these ifs and can't really judge them. I had a very serious incident as a guard where people self evacuated from a damaged but otherwise safe train onto a still open 90mph line...

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I have been a railway enthusiast for my entire life and I worked on a heritage line (with PTS) for some time too. Despite this, when I did my mainline PTS I was taken aback just how many dangers there are when being on or near the mainline railway - even ones that a very conscientious and careful person might not think of immediately. I am not trying to suggest that passengers are idiots and cannot appreciate these risks - quite the opposite - most of them are much smarter than I! However, they have not had the appropriate training to really gain an understanding. Just a casual knowledge is not enough to decide it is safe.

 

[HowardGWR]

Hello, I would like to know when it is safer to safe-evacuate a train than to remain on board when there is no guard or driver available to ask for permission following a derailment or collision? By that I mean a scenario which has left the driver incapacitated and the guard is either incapacitated or no guard is present on board.

It's not possible to choose a different thread title is it, dear OP?
May I suggest self-detrainment?

 

[TurbostarFan]

It's not possible to choose a different thread title is it, dear OP?
May I suggest self-detrainment?

I can but would rather keep the current thread title.

 

[Darandio]

I can but would rather keep the current thread title.

And I thank you, it certainly helped me to use the toilet this morning.

 

[TurbostarFan]

And I thank you, it certainly helped me to use the toilet this morning.

Alright, I've changed the thread title to add the words "a train".

 

[Ken H]

It's usually safer to remain on the train but this is a difficult one, not least because every situation is so so different.

It depends on whats happened, where it's happened, is there any hazards from egressing i.e. Live rail / live ohle / other trains running / sheer drop.

The list goes on.

If it was a fire and the train was platformed I'd egress, else I would try and assess the situation. If no staff and I had signal id dial 999.

your phone has GPS. get a location then dial 999. you dont need a signal ID

 

[Ken H]

I would depend. If the line wasnt electrified and there was a road nearby I'd get out after a reasonable time with no rail staff on site. I would have dialled 999. I would get out on the side away from the line going the other way. I would sit on the door sill, not just jump. But if the weather was really bad then maybe I would consider differently. Do you really want to detrain at Ais Gill in a sub zero blizzard?
but if I was on the down fast between MK and Euston it would have to be pretty catastrophic to get me off the train

 

[Larry Trapp]

your phone has GPS. get a location then dial 999. you dont need a signal ID

Sorry I think it was the way I wrote it. I didn't mean Id of a railway signal I meant if I had signal on my phone. I should have put a ' between I and d

 

[underbank]

I would depend. If the line wasnt electrified and there was a road nearby I'd get out after a reasonable time with no rail staff on site. I would have dialled 999. I would get out on the side away from the line going the other way. I would sit on the door sill, not just jump. But if the weather was really bad then maybe I would consider differently. Do you really want to detrain at Ais Gill in a sub zero blizzard?
but if I was on the down fast between MK and Euston it would have to be pretty catastrophic to get me off the train

Have to agree with all that. It all comes down to common sense, the conditions on and off the train, and your own experiences/knowledge. One size doesn't fit all.

 

[LowLevel]

You could say 'Get off if you think you're going to die' but everyone's perception of mortal danger is different.

There's been plenty of cases of people thinking they're rescuing themselves only to actually have gone into headless chicken mode and either seriously hurt or killed themselves when they'd have been quite safe where they are.

 

[Ethano92]

I don't really think this can be boiled down to a "one size fits all" solution - you must apply common sense in such a situation.

I agree with this but the ongoing problem with this issue is a member of this forums common sense, that knows about all the hazards there are, and a member of the public's common sense that will think the TOC is just being lazy in a long delay are very different for obvious and understandable reasons.

Perhaps a campaign like the 'see it, say it, sorted' to promote safety in an emergency situation could help. Teaching about electrification, trip hazards and incoming trains from other tracks etc. Obviously, as well as genuinely helping, this could be considered fear mongering and could also give some an excuse to egress when there's the slightest delay.

 

[JN114]

No, I’m sorry - a little knowledge is dangerous. That’s exactly the problem that’s existed in previous self evacuation incidents. People who think they’re not doing something dangerous, who think “how hard can it be, I’ll be careful”.

And I don’t agree with the comparisons to Grenfell:

1) The stay put advice at Grenfell was sound for the building in its as built condition, as it remains so for many high rise buildings. It was the modifications to the building that exasperated the fire and nullified the effectiveness of stay put.

2) The advice on the railway includes the caveat of self-evacuating IF your life is in IMMEDIATE danger. High rise fire advice is stay put regardless, you’re NOT in immediate danger.

I think any education campaign would have a negative impact - you’d teach people some of the hazards so they’d have the attitude of some posters here who think they know what they’re doing without any formal trackside training.

 

[Ken H]

Sorry I think it was the way I wrote it. I didn't mean Id of a railway signal I meant if I had signal on my phone. I should have put a ' between I and d

no worries.

 

[big all]

also i would suggest if there's is no danger
you are not only leaving yourself open to prosecution for various charges ranging from treaspass and opening doors when not permitted
if someone gets injured using the now open doors you will be responsible as you created the dangerous situation

 

[Alan2603]

A genuine question here, as I don’t know the answer.

If the driver/train manager on say LNER trains become incapacitated in an incident, are the ‘trolley dolly’s/buffet car attendant etc trained in train evacuation?

If yes, is it the same for example on Trans-Pennine where it is a contracted (I think) trolley person, similarly with the ‘Settle/Carlisle' people selling the onboard tea and coffee?

I think to the uninitiated average passenger, a ‘member of staff’ is a ‘member of staff’ be it selling tea/coffee, serving meals or being the guard, and would firstly look to them (if in the vicinity) to take the initiative on whether to and possibly how to disembark safely.

Thanks

Alan

 

[Intermodal]

A genuine question here, as I don’t know the answer.

If the driver/train manager on say LNER trains become incapacitated in an incident, are the ‘trolley dolly’s/buffet car attendant etc trained in train evacuation?

If yes, is it the same for example on Trans-Pennine where it is a contracted (I think) trolley person, similarly with the ‘Settle/Carlisle' people selling the onboard tea and coffee?

I think to the uninitiated average passenger, a ‘member of staff’ is a ‘member of staff’ be it selling tea/coffee, serving meals or being the guard, and would firstly look to them (if in the vicinity) to take the initiative on whether to and possibly how to disembark safely.

Thanks

Alan

They are certainly not trained in the rules regarding initiating an evacuation and would not be deemed competent to do this but they may have had some training in how to assist in one.

 

[43096]

I'm surprised there has been no mention of the 1995 Maidenhead accident, where a passenger "self evacuated" from a smoke-filled HST and was struck and killed by an HST travelling in the opposite direction after he had done so.
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HSE_Maidenhead1995.pdf

As the train came to a halt a number of passengers jumped from the train on the
unsafe side and made their way across the tracks to the far side. One of them
narrowly escaped being hit by a passing HST travelling at speed towards London on
the adjacent track unfortunately however, another male passenger Mr lan Jones,
was struck and killed by this train.

The train had travelled approximately one and a quarter miles after the tank dropped
and came to rest some half a mile before Maidenhead Station where the railway line
passes over Oldfield Road.

Fortunately there was good access for the emergency services to reach the site and
the Fire Service attended the scene within minutes and dealt with the small fire that
remained. Both the Civil Police and the British Transport Police were on site together
with the Ambulance Service.

Six passengers were taken to hospital suffering mainly from smoke inhalation and
minor injuries

 

[Alan2603]

They are certainly not trained in the rules regarding initiating an evacuation and would not be deemed competent to do this but they may have had some training in how to assist in one.

To be honest, I find that a bit worrying, and potentially a bit of a failure of the railway in general.

To your average or occasional passenger, during an emergency a 'train staff' member in uniform (contracted or otherwise) is in ‘authority’ and I am sure would be expected to have been trained and know about safe evacuation (even the basics) if needed. Particularly with, as has been pointed out many times upthread, the number of hazards to disembarking passengers.

I know they are different in many ways, but passengers on an aircraft would look to cabin crew (who are all thoroughly trained and re-trained in evacuation in differing circumstances) to take the lead in the cabin evacuation. But then on a train have to hope to god that the lady who was selling the tea a few minutes ago 'may have had some training' (or not as the case maybe) in order to help evacuate them safely, or at least make a decision about whether they should/should not evacuate - ie a dynamic risk assessment.

By not having these type of on-board staff properly trained seems to be a bit of a disaster waiting to happen (not that I want one to happen - ever).

Alan.