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Where can CrossCountry trains reach 125mph?

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oscarthecat92

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Increased speeds from Bristol to Birmingham would be welcomed. The journey time at present is barely competitive with the M5 and the prospect of being crammed into an overcrowded train less so. Probably a fair bit of suppressed demand on this section
 
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Senex

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Increased speeds from Bristol to Birmingham would be welcomed. The journey time at present is barely competitive with the M5 and the prospect of being crammed into an overcrowded train less so. Probably a fair bit of suppressed demand on this section
Wasn't this one of the bits of the Operation Princess grand plan that never got done because Railtrack was incapable of delivering on its part of the agreement?
 

DannyMich2018

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Increased speeds from Bristol to Birmingham would be welcomed. The journey time at present is barely competitive with the M5 and the prospect of being crammed into an overcrowded train less so. Probably a fair bit of suppressed demand on this section
I think be more use to have increased speed on the pedestrian Exeter to Penzance stretch where possible as about three hours journey for 120 miles is a poor 40mph average.
 

hexagon789

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I think be more use to have increased speed on the pedestrian Exeter to Penzance stretch where possible as about three hours journey for 120 miles is a poor 40mph average.

I agree, raising the lower speeds south of Plymouth would have a greater affect though whether it can be done easily...
 

takno

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I agree, raising the lower speeds south of Plymouth would have a greater affect though whether it can be done easily...
It would have a greater effect, but on fewer journeys. Not that say that it shouldn't be done, but it's probably more of a discussion for GWR customers, and on the face of it it's a lot harder.
 

Brissle Girl

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About 5 mins if you're lucky
Indeed, the 36 miles between Long Ashton and Cogload would save 4.5 mins, plus anything you might get south of Taunton. A 5 min saving on the hour between Bristol and Exeter is not too shabby, particularly if a similar improvement could be yielded between Bristol and Birmingham. If the govt wants to get people out of their cars and also generate modal shift on the longer distance cross country rail routes it needs to look at all the areas where incremental improvements can be achieved. In isolation each one doesn't appear much, but added together start to make a difference. Likewise, "levelling up" should mean trying to improve connectivity between the regions, not purely a London-centric approach of improving the regions' transport links to the Capital.

And I agree that speeds west of Exeter are a big issue, but that is a separate issue, and off topic for a thread about 125mph capability on XC services, as any increases, whilst valuable, would still be well short of 125.
 

hexagon789

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It would have a greater effect, but on fewer journeys. Not that say that it shouldn't be done, but it's probably more of a discussion for GWR customers, and on the face of it it's a lot harder.

Which journeys if it's fewer? Just GWR fast services?
 

hexagon789

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Indeed, the 36 miles between Long Ashton and Cogload would save 4.5 mins, plus anything you might get south of Taunton. A 5 min saving on the hour between Bristol and Exeter is not too shabby, particularly if a similar improvement could be yielded between Bristol and Birmingham. If the govt wants to get people out of their cars and also generate modal shift on the longer distance cross country rail routes it needs to look at all the areas where incremental improvements can be achieved. In isolation each one doesn't appear much, but added together start to make a difference. Likewise, "levelling up" should mean trying to improve connectivity between the regions, not purely a London-centric approach of improving the regions' transport links to the Capital.

And I agree that speeds west of Exeter are a big issue, but that is a separate issue, and off topic for a thread about 125mph capability on XC services, as any increases, whilst valuable, would still be well short of 125.

I suppose 5 minutes isn't bad, it is better than gained by some suggestions to raise linespeed, I think it's my sense of expenditure - is a five minute saving worth the money required to bring the route up to 125mph spec?

Also, would capacity be adversely affected by any re-signalling work. Things like that
 

Jamesrob637

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I suppose 5 minutes isn't bad, it is better than gained by some suggestions to raise linespeed, I think it's my sense of expenditure - is a five minute saving worth the money required to bring the route up to 125mph spec?

Also, would capacity be adversely affected by any re-signalling work. Things like that

It does look good on the stats when you can add more miles of 200kmh capable track.
 

class26

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I suppose 5 minutes isn't bad, it is better than gained by some suggestions to raise linespeed, I think it's my sense of expenditure - is a five minute saving worth the money required to bring the route up to 125mph spec?

Also, would capacity be adversely affected by any re-signalling work. Things like that
Please remember that the ECML was progressively upgraded in small incremental steps, a minute save here, two minutes saved there. It all adds up.
 

The Planner

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Increased speeds from Bristol to Birmingham would be welcomed. The journey time at present is barely competitive with the M5 and the prospect of being crammed into an overcrowded train less so. Probably a fair bit of suppressed demand on this section
Wasn't this one of the bits of the Operation Princess grand plan that never got done because Railtrack was incapable of delivering on its part of the agreement?
No, the linespeeds were increased to an extent a few years back, but not to the level they thought they could. Level crossings were certainly an issue.
 

hexagon789

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Please remember that the ECML was progressively upgraded in small incremental steps, a minute save here, two minutes saved there. It all adds up.

The Flying Scotsman had 47 minutes cut with the 125mph timetable change, but I take the point.

It's all very well when it adds up in a grand scheme but when an entire scheme would produce less than 5 minutes it doesn't seem worth the money
 

Brissle Girl

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The Flying Scotsman had 47 minutes cut with the 125mph timetable change, but I take the point.

It's all very well when it adds up in a grand scheme but when an entire scheme would produce less than 5 minutes it doesn't seem worth the money
Except where there are similar enhancements all along the route, so it all adds up to a meaningful saving.
 

hexagon789

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Except where there are similar enhancements all along the route, so it all adds up to a meaningful saving.

I'll buy it's meaningful if by the end of the whole project other saves at least 5 minutes over 100 miles and at least ten for 200 or more. Two minutes if that's the entire saving seems pointless when it needs paid for and it will also incur higher maintenance costs as well AND that money for the initial project to increase speeds plus the money that will be spent maintaining the track for the higher speed could be spent more usefully elsewhere.
 

The Planner

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I'll buy it's meaningful if by the end of the whole project other saves at least 5 minutes over 100 miles and at least ten for 200 or more. Two minutes if that's the entire saving seems pointless when it needs paid for and it will also incur higher maintenance costs as well AND that money for the initial project to increase speeds plus the money that will be spent maintaining the track for the higher speed could be spent more usefully elsewhere.
Depends what it unlocks, one or two minutes often won't do a lot, but 3 is often a path and can cascade out.
 

class26

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Except where there are similar enhancements all along the route, so it all adds up to a meaningful saving.

If I understand you correctly you refer to the advent of the HST taking over from Deltics / 47`s ?
I refer to the times saved with the SAME traction as previous so it is a case of a minute here, two minutes there. The same on the Midland main line. Little steps.
 

hexagon789

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Depends what it unlocks, one or two minutes often won't do a lot, but 3 is often a path and can cascade out.

Interesting, I hadn't considered that aspect of pathing. In which case, I can see if being more meaningful.

I think it's like anything you have to sit down and work out the whole thing in detail to try and see what the real potential is
 

Brissle Girl

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If I understand you correctly you refer to the advent of the HST taking over from Deltics / 47`s ?
I refer to the times saved with the SAME traction as previous so it is a case of a minute here, two minutes there. The same on the Midland main line. Little steps.
Not at all. That was a completely different situation and a step change. I am referring to a number of infrastructure changes that, in isolation, don’t appear much, but when added together amount to a meaningful improvement.

So on the Exeter to Birmingham axis you could add to the line speed improvements already discussed with firstly remodelling of both sides of Temple Meads to have higher approach/departure speeds. You could also grade separate Westerleigh Jn along a new alignment that resulted in a much higher speed than 35mph. Those two alone could save another 4 or 5 minutes.

And on the approach to New St, if the new City Line rolling stock was operated on a DCO basis with automatic stopping and door opening you could speed up the service so XC services don’t have to crawl along behind stopping services on a regular basis. This last one is probably open to severe thread divergence, so let’s not go there, but if the mindset and funding is there, all these things could make a meaningful difference in journey times.
 

jyte

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Maybe I've bumped my head, but I swear NR proposed and costed 125mph operation in the vague area of Bridgewater? I now can't find anything online about this and wondering if I'm having a bernstein/bernstain moment.
 

class26

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Maybe I've bumped my head, but I swear NR proposed and costed 125mph operation in the vague area of Bridgewater? I now can't find anything online about this and wondering if I'm having a bernstein/bernstain moment.

I also remember this but i reckon it was some time ago and it was only as far south as Bridgewater as you say. 110 after that
 

hexagon789

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Maybe I've bumped my head, but I swear NR proposed and costed 125mph operation in the vague area of Bridgewater? I now can't find anything online about this and wondering if I'm having a bernstein/bernstain moment.

Rings a bell, think I've seen that mentioned in one or two other threads
 

LNW-GW Joint

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No, the linespeeds were increased to an extent a few years back, but not to the level they thought they could. Level crossings were certainly an issue.

The northern end has recently been resignalled into WMSCC and transferred from GW route to LNW, along with electrification extension to Bromsgrove.
I think the new boundary is at the Avon bridge near Tewkesbury.
I don't know if that has changed the route constraints at all (level crossings etc).
Gloucester is also due to be resignalled I think.
 

takno

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The northern end has recently been resignalled into WMSCC and transferred from GW route to LNW, along with electrification extension to Bromsgrove.
I think the new boundary is at the Avon bridge near Tewkesbury.
I don't know if that has changed the route constraints at all (level crossings etc).
Gloucester is also due to be resignalled I think.
I think it's probably added a little capacity to the mains north of Barnt Green and at Bromsgrove, although of course that probably only makes up for the extra traffic on the Lickey itself. South of there it's pretty much a case of sticking new signals in the same places as the old ones.
 

The Planner

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The northern end has recently been resignalled into WMSCC and transferred from GW route to LNW, along with electrification extension to Bromsgrove.
I think the new boundary is at the Avon bridge near Tewkesbury.
I don't know if that has changed the route constraints at all (level crossings etc).
Gloucester is also due to be resignalled I think.
Gloucester is a good way off, but all of the above hasnt altered the issues.
I think it's probably added a little capacity to the mains north of Barnt Green and at Bromsgrove, although of course that probably only makes up for the extra traffic on the Lickey itself. South of there it's pretty much a case of sticking new signals in the same places as the old ones.
Hasnt done anything at all to capacity.
 

takno

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Hasnt done anything at all to capacity.
There definitely isn't an extra path in it. I was mostly thinking about the fact that the terminators now get to turn around in the middle of the line at Bromsgrove rather than having to cross all the way over to the reversing siding at Longbridge. IIRC there were also a couple of extra signals on the bit that transferred over from Saltley, including one on the Kings Norton - New Street section, which probably just allows the trains to queue up slightly closer together, but nevermind.
 

R G NOW.

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I think it's probably added a little capacity to the mains north of Barnt Green and at Bromsgrove, although of course that probably only makes up for the extra traffic on the Lickey itself. South of there it's pretty much a case of sticking new signals in the same places as the old ones.
If you travel south of Bromsgrove they have replaced a lot of the signal heads on to the existing posts with 4 aspect led heads. I know that some have also been replaced in Gloucester, so maybe they are getting ready to increase the linespeed on that line, but probably not to 125mph though.
 
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