Where in Europe is rail travel a nightmare?

[Bletchleyite]

Actually I think it's discarded Fyra trains from BE/NL that are going to Greece.

I thought the Italians had taken those as Frecciargento?

No, it's not the Fyra trains, they have been rebranded for service in the south of Italy. These have gone to Greece

Ah, those - so unreliable they caused the collapse of the Cisalpino organisation, with FS and SBB taking over themselves.

Good luck with those!

 

[rg177]

I thought the Italians had taken those as Frecciargento?

Indeed and I did spot one in January working a Milano to Napoli service while trying to mentally process a short-notice Trenord strike. They're dreadfully ugly looking things in the flesh.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, it's not the Fyra trains, they have been rebranded for service in the south of Italy. These have gone to Greece

Ah yes, it's the ex-Cisalpino fleet.

Cisalpino Pendolinos to work Athens – Thessaloniki line

GREECE: Following its acquisition of national passenger operator Trainose, Italy's FS Group has decided to deploy its 200 km/h ETR470 tilting trains to accelerate inter-city services on the Athens - Thessaloniki main line. This follows trials with one of Trenitalia's multi-system ETR485...

www.railwaygazette.com

GREECE: Following its acquisition of national passenger operator Trainose, Italy’s FS Group has decided to deploy its 200 km/h ETR470 tilting trains to accelerate inter-city services on the Athens – Thessaloniki main line. This follows trials with one of Trenitalia’s multi-system ETR485 trainsets last year.
The first of five ETR470 Pendolino units formerly used on international services between Italy and Switzerland has been delivered to Trenitalia’s high speed train workshop in Vicenza for conversion to operate in Greece.

 

[superalbs]

Actually I think it's discarded Fyra trains from BE/NL that are going to Greece.
TrainOSE is now owned by Trenitalia, and they realised it was somewhere to use up the idle Fyras which they had bought for a song from Ansaldo/Hitachi.
Athens-Thessaloniki has had major investment in the middle of the route, where new tunnels avoid a couple of long slow sections round the coast.

No, it's not the Fyra trains, they have been rebranded for service in the south of Italy. These have gone to Greece

It's definitely Pendolinos. At the moment an ETR.485 has been sent for testing, with the ETR.470 fleet to follow.

FS Class ETR 470 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

FS Class ETR 480 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Presently, the Italian ETR.470 are used for Frecciabianca high-speed services. It was decided in 2019, that these will be used on the Athens – Thessaloniki railway line run by Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane subsidiary, TrainOSE. Units will be converted for use in Greece, the existing 3 kV DC equipment is to be replaced with 25 kV 50 Hz equipment and they will be fitted with ETCS onboard equipment. In August 2018, a similar ETR.485 unit transferred to Greece for testing purposes, in anticipation of the ETR.470 fleet's arrival.

There's an article with pictures of it on the way here:

[SI / Expert] ETR 485 31 en route to Greece, TrainOSE tests starting soon

An SŽ series 363 locomotive pulling an ETR 485? Yes, this combination was captured today near Divača in Slovenia. The tilting EMU is going to Greece, where it will make test runs for TrainOSE.Today an important journey began for ETR 485 31. The tilting EMU, also known as Pendolino, is currently

railcolornews.com

And a video of the ETR.485 at speed in Greece, currently on test:

As for the Fyra sets, they have been in service with Trenitalia for just over a year at this point, running on the Frecciargento services, the mid-tier high-speed services. I managed to capture one at Milano Centrale in February. I seem to remember it to be working the 1106 to Ancona/Lecce/Bari/Brindisi (not sure which). Doesn't seem to be too many problems, and they look very swish in the livery.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Rural France is quite backward compared to the ultra modern and frequent TGV network. The typical French branch line experience is of a handful of trains a day. They will run at different times each day of the week and will randomly be (scheduled) buses.

It is very much run the way we used to run our trains before Beeching and clockface timetabling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed and I did spot one in January working a Milano to Napoli service while trying to mentally process a short-notice Trenord strike. They're dreadfully ugly looking things in the flesh.

I think there's literally nothing good about them whatsoever beyond the fact that they aren't a bus. They look ugly (the Dutch have a bizarre ability to design and specify really, really ugly trains[1]), they are unreliable and the interiors are Dutch style basic. Just rubbish from start to finish.

[1] I know the "Hondekop" (dog head) is for driver safety, but a conventional pointy nose does the same (as the structure is the same underneath), just with a bit of fibreglass to make it not look awful.

 

[hexagon789]

I think that is debatable - it's heavily tilted towards "booked train only" ticketing. In comparison with DB or ÖBB (as examples) I'd say France was inferior. They're all inferior to Switzerland, of course.

Switzerland has the easiest network to use because of regular frequency and use of a nodal connection system, Belgium and The Netherlands use similar but arguably aren't as reliable particularly Belgium seems often plauged by delays of some kind often related to infrastructure.

Though even Switzerland isn't 100% infallible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Switzerland has the easiest network to use because of regular frequency and use of a nodal connection system, Belgium and The Netherlands use similar but arguably aren't as reliable particularly Belgium seems often plauged by delays of some kind often related to infrastructure.

Though even Switzerland isn't 100% infallible.

You've also got to consider that Switzerland (and the Netherlands, and Belgium) are quite small countries that while they might have train categories called IC don't really have any true long distance stuff - the longest Swiss ICs (Geneve-Aeroport to St Gallen) are little more than a variety of Thameslink, albeit with posher trains with a restaurant. They are probably comparable with what you'd have if the North of England was a country in its own right.

Germany is a better example of a walk-up InterCity railway, really.

 

[hexagon789]

You've also got to consider that Switzerland (and the Netherlands, and Belgium) are quite small countries that while they might have train categories called IC don't really have any true long distance stuff - the longest Swiss ICs (Geneve-Aeroport to St Gallen) are little more than a variety of Thameslink, albeit with posher trains with a restaurant. They are probably comparable with what you'd have if the North of England was a country in its own right.

Germany is a better example of a walk-up InterCity railway, really.

Very true, though Belgium at least has the densest network for its size meaning you can get almost anywhere by train there.

Not sure SBB would appreciate the Thameslink reference!

Germany though is no better than anywhere else for reliability now, particularly the long-distance sector seems quite prone to delays now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure SBB would appreciate the Thameslink reference!

To be fair, TPE might be a better comparison. As I said, Switzerland is demographically and physically very similar to what you'd get if there was Northern English independence and a load of extra money, though admittedly Northern England has larger cities.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Eastern Europe demonstrates that it is easier to buy fancy new trains (with borrowed money) than it is to have a long-term programme to restore and improve the knackered infrastructure.
There's progress in most countries, but it will be a long haul.

In Bulgaria they have been improving the main line towards Turkey for years; now Turkey has started a long project to upgrade the Edirne-Istanbul line.
Serbia/Hungary have now started a major project to improve the Budapest-Belgrade-Sofia route.
Any time now the last non-electrified gap in the route (Niš-Dimitrovgrad/Tsaribrod in Serbia) will be closed.
Either way it means interruption of the old Orient Express route for at least a decade, with a lot of bustitution.

Rail Baltica (Warsaw-Kaunas-Riga-Tallinn) is in serious planning, but just now the classic route is hopeless with existing EU borders.
Warsaw-Krakow/Katowice does have a decent modern line (some of it at 220km/h) out of Warsaw, but it gives up just over half way onto poor classic infrastructure.
It was built for freight as a by-pass line and has been adapted for fast passenger services despite not really being in the right place.
Romania is rebuilding the central line through Transylvania (via Sighisoara) but the current service is dire.

Much of this is part of the EU's TEN-T strategic plan, and in most cases is principally for freight (container traffic to ports mainly).

 

[BahrainLad]

Can you explain the SBB IC = Thameslink comment please? Having used both extensively I'm struggling to see any similarities. Geneva - St Gallen is almost 4 hours!

 

[43096]

Can you explain the SBB IC = Thameslink comment please? Having used both extensively I'm struggling to see any similarities. Geneva - St Gallen is almost 4 hours!

Not just me, then.

It was an utterly ridiculous statement.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Old videos indicate that the ex-Eastern Bloc used to be a bit of a faff for visiting Westerners (of which there were a few) however countries such as Poland and the Czech Republic nowadays have very efficient systems even if the CZ one has suffered from a couple of incidents recently (see separate thread in this section).

I would go with France away from the TGV and Intercités as being a bit sparse, and some of Spain and Southern Italy too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

GVA to St Gallen is 372km or about 225 miles - like London to Lancaster, Darlington or Plymouth - or Brussels.
A UK equivalent operationally is maybe Euston-Birmingham-Liverpool on LNWR - medium distance, fast, efficient, multiple stops.
TPE Liverpool-Newcastle isn't far off either; XC Birmingham-Newcastle would be closer if it wasn't for the diesel Voyagers.
None of these are as far as the Swiss example (which runs on the Swiss high speed line for some of its journey).

 

[Bletchleyite]

GVA to St Gallen is 372km or about 225 miles - like London to Lancaster, Darlington or Plymouth - or Brussels.
A UK equivalent operationally is maybe Euston-Birmingham-Liverpool on LNWR - medium distance, fast, efficient, multiple stops.
TPE Liverpool-Newcastle isn't far off either.
Neither are as far as the Swiss example (which runs on the Swiss high speed line for some of its journey).

Yes, I slightly underestimated both how far that was and how not-far Thameslink's end to end journey was.

I think I'd compare it to something like Liverpool-Newcastle in retrospect, yes.

And I'd call travel on it in Standard class a nightmare, yes - the seats on IC2000 double decker coaches are incredibly narrow, have poor legroom (and a stupid bin in the way), inadequate luggage space and tiny windows (just what you need in one of the most beautiful countries in the world). Utter rubbish. 1st or bust!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes, I slightly underestimated both how far that was and how not-far Thameslink's end to end journey was.

I think I'd compare it to something like Liverpool-Newcastle in retrospect, yes.

And I'd call travel on it in Standard class a nightmare, yes - the seats on IC2000 double decker coaches are incredibly narrow, have poor legroom (and a stupid bin in the way), inadequate luggage space and tiny windows (just what you need in one of the most beautiful countries in the world). Utter rubbish. 1st or bust!

SBB stock has never been anything other than squeaky clean in 2nd. If you're on a Swiss Pass, which I have done twice now on various durations, 1st is not much more. 2nd is fine for short trips.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SBB stock has never been anything other than squeaky clean in 2nd. If you're on a Swiss Pass, which I have done twice now on various durations, 1st is not much more. 2nd is fine for short trips.

2nd isn't fine for anything if you're a larger gentleman (!) - the seat is only about 15" wide, which is narrower than even Ryanair's awful seating. It's 3+2 width seating in a 2+2 seated vehicle.

 

[hexagon789]

To be fair, TPE might be a better comparison. As I said, Switzerland is demographically and physically very similar to what you'd get if there was Northern English independence and a load of extra money, though admittedly Northern England has larger cities.

I think it's difficult to describe Switzerland as anything other than Switzerland to be fair but I understand the comparison. Nevertheless, at least in the case if the SBB there is a noteable difference between IC and IR and a small one between IR and R; mostly in terms of the number of stops more than anything.

 

[ainsworth74]

Old videos indicate that the ex-Eastern Bloc used to be a bit of a faff for visiting Westerners (of which there were a few) however countries such as Poland and the Czech Republic nowadays have very efficient systems even if the CZ one has suffered from a couple of incidents recently (see separate thread in this section).

Must admit I was very impressed by České dráhy when I did my trip out there. Their website was absolutely excellent (and blows a fair few TOC websites out of the water seeing as it had a seat selector and the ability, as is common on the continent, to make reservations without a ticket), the carriages were very clean and comfy (though we were in 1st class), the on-board catering was tasty and the staff seemed a bit surly but very efficient (though that was probably the language barrier more than anything). Though there was one conductor who was fantastic on the train from Cheb to Prague who in very broken English and using the ČD app on my phone (their app is also fantastic by the by) managed to communicate to me that there was going to be a set swap at Pilsen and we'd need to get off this train and our replacement train would be waiting on the other side of the island platform. He even came back to check we were getting off the train at Pilsen and gave us a wave goodbye (probably a bit confused by a pair of English tourists in the back end of beyond ).

PKP in Poland were a bit more of a mixed bag. The trains were fine in particular their Pendolinos between Krakow and Warsaw are amazing whilst the WARS restaurant car on the train from Warsaw to Berlin was brilliant and the staff again not exactly chatty but efficient and helpful (particularly the one that negotiated with some other Poles a seat at their table in the restaurant car) but their website was a bit clunky (but usable) and there did not appear to be any obvious sources of real time information that I could track down. Certainly the PKP app appears to only work in Polish which made things tricky!!

Have to say my (admittedly limited) experience of Czech and Poland was very very positive. I've just not yet managed to wangle an excuse to get back out there yet!

That being said Albania does sound like it might be quite good fun from what's been said here

 

[Bletchleyite]

That being said Albania does sound like it might be quite good fun from what's been said here

Have some photos, though this was about 10 years ago and I'm quite a bit podgier now than pictured!

Albania is a fascinating (if very poor) country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remaining 4 photos...

(I'm on the third one - yes the train was in motion albeit at about 15mph!)

The poster is good - look what they aspire to! (They could probably buy some now if they wanted!)

 

[gordonthemoron]

The Baltic states aren't very good, apart from Kaunus-Vilnius in Lithuania

 

[ainsworth74]

Some of those photos almost look like they could have been taken on a heritage railway in the UK

The poster is good - look what they aspire to! (They could probably buy some now if they wanted!)

Oh yes that is excellent!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Have to say my (admittedly limited) experience of Czech and Poland was very very positive. I've just not yet managed to wangle an excuse to get back out there yet!

I found cross-border trains in CZ and PL very good, with good restaurants on board (for the obligatory pork 'n dumplings and Budvar!).
Free eats in 1st on PKP was a surprise, after having to pay on ÖBB/DB.
Local trains are a different matter in PL though, with ancient stock and really poor infrastructure.
Stretches of 25km/h seemed a regular thing on pretty straight track (Krakow-Katowice/Oswiecim).
Crossing into UA things are little better, but the Hyundai Rotem EMUs were rather nice, although there are only a few of them.
It's odd travelling on electrified lines that are in such poor shape.
I don't think we have any electrified track which has been let go in the same way.

ČD now has RailJets and Taurus locos on the Graz-Vienna-Brno-Prague run, matching the similar ÖBB units on the same service.

 

[ainsworth74]

Stretches of 25km/h seemed a regular thing on pretty straight track (Krakow-Katowice/Oswiecim).

...

I don't think we have any electrified track which has been let go in the same way.

Yes it was a bit of a clash travelling from Prague to Bohumín (on the border) gliding along at a fair old lick to then crawling along all the way to Oswiecim at what felt like not much above a brisk jog! And agreed regarding the oddity that was having an electrified railway that felt somewhat neglected (the concrete OHLE masts were also quite an oddity).

 

[hexagon789]

Some of those photos almost look like they could have been taken on a heritage railway in the UK

Except the coaches look like they are still awaiting restoration.

 

[superalbs]

Remaining 4 photos...

(I'm on the third one - yes the train was in motion albeit at about 15mph!)

The poster is good - look what they aspire to! (They could probably buy some now if they wanted!)

What's the 5 leke ISIS charge?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the 5 leke ISIS charge?

I assume it's their equivalent of VAT.

 

[route101]

Noticed that going from Budapest to Belgrade , the line speed drops when you go into Serbia. Our train was one loco and one carriage , very bouncy . Linespeed must of been 20mph.