Where would you start a new Open Access operator?

[flitwickbeds]

Let's say you happen to find a couple of trains complete with driver and crew in your back garden one morning in 5 years' time when passenger numbers have largely returned after Covid*. Where would you start your new Open Access operation, where would it terminate, which route would it take and which stations would it call at?

Rules:

• Start and end must be places large enough to support the service and make it financially viable - no suggestions for a new service from your home station to work/family station without changing just because it would make your specific journey easier!
• Must be a route that exists to run passenger trains on.
• Must be at least somewhat likely to get "in principle" approval from ORR - so no revenue abstraction or largely services which largely already exist.
• Don't worry too much about available paths or platforms*

* Well, this is Speculative Ideas!

 

[Bald Rick]

Not answering the question, but I’ll tell you where I wouldn’t run one, and that’s Llanelli to Paddington.

 

[telstarbox]

Manchester - Stockport pick up only - (one of the High Peak stations?) - Chesterfield - Loughborough - Leicester.

Doesn't duplicate that much, provides NW - East Mids connectivity, and gives the students at Loughborough somewhere for a day out

I'm sure there are good reasons why this doesn't exist though.

 

[PTR 444]

With post-Covid leisure travel and days out by train now more popular than commuting, you’d think that it was a bit short sighted for Grand Central to cancel their Blackpool service when they did. If I was in charge of an OAO, I’d take on that route using the exact same schedule and stock that was planned to operate it. If successful, I’d then consider introducing other routes aimed at the leisure day trip market such as:

• Euston to Windermere
• Paddington to St Ives (Cornwall)
• Kings Cross to Skegness

 

[NorthOxonian]

I know paths on the GWML make this impossible, but:

(Nuneaton - Coventry - Leamington Spa - Banbury) - Oxford - Swindon - Chippenham - Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads. The part in brackets is optional, particularly the extension through to Nuneaton from Coventry.

If the part beyond Chippenham was deemed to be too extractive, then I'd instead run it to Salisbury via Melksham/Trowbridge. But a better connection between Oxford, the South West, and potentially Warwickshire would be rather busy. There are always a substantial number of passengers changing at Didcot for Oxford, so catering to this market could be useful.

Presumably a service of this type would work even better after EWR - I'd probably send it to Milton Keynes or Northampton going via Bicester. It'd provide a direct service through a rapidly growing area and on to Bristol.

 

[Bald Rick]

With post-Covid leisure travel and days out by train now more popular than commuting, you’d think that it was a bit short sighted for Grand Central to cancel their Blackpool service when they did. If I was in charge of an OAO, I’d take on that route using the exact same schedule and stock that was planned to operate it. If successful, I’d then consider introducing other routes aimed at the leisure day trip market such as:

• Euston to Windermere
• Paddington to St Ives (Cornwall)
• Kings Cross to Skegness

The first two would certainly fail on abstraction, the second on practicality, the third because no one in London wants to go to Skegness!

 

[tarq]

London Euston to Blackpool North

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think I personally would elect for Nottingham - East Mids - Loughborough - Leicester - Kettering - Bedford - Ridgmont (upgraded parkway) - Bletchley - Bicester Village - Oxford - Didcot Parkway - Reading Green Park - Basingstoke - Winchester - Eastleigh - Botley (upgraded) - Fareham - Fratton - Portsmouth & Southsea - Portsmouth Harbour.

That would be every two hours, and there would be an infill service from the future East Mids / Toton Hub to Southampton Central and Airport Parkway every other two hours.

People will naturally cry “but what about Reading” but as Green Park will likely not have an Intercity service, and as Didcot does not either on the Cross Country axis, and as Portsmouth finally joins the Intercity network I doubt it would be overly abstractive. Indeed, investing in Ridgmont and also serving places such as Bletchley to encourage other lesser flows such as Hemel or Buzzard to the East Mids and north via this route and then HS2 (etc) would be a positive; and it would give Leicester and the East Mids a truly viable non-Birmingham option to the South Coast, Isle of Wight, M4 Corridor, University city of Oxford etc.

 

[PTR 444]

The first two would certainly fail on abstraction

Apologies if I haven’t fully grasped the concept of abstraction but surely can’t it be worked around by altering the stopping pattern? For example on the Windermere service in the up direction, you could have intermediate stops at Northampton, Tamworth, Crewe and Lancaster only. These stations currently have no more than 1tph direct between them so I’d imagine an additional service calling at these wouldn’t be considered abstractive.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I'd get a steam train and run Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

St Pancras via HS1 pick up only at Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford and through the Tunnel to Calais Frethun and maybe Lille or Arras through to either Belgium/Germany a bit slower than Eurostar. Imagine Ashford to Calais in 25mins?

 

[Class465pacer]

St Pancras via HS1 pick up only at Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford and through the Tunnel to Calais Frethun and maybe Lille or Arras through to either Belgium/Germany a bit slower than Eurostar. Imagine Ashford to Calais in 25mins?

What rolling stock would you propose for this route?

373s and 395s aren’t compatible with the 15kV DC overhead electrification system in Germany.

 

[Bald Rick]

Apologies if I haven’t fully grasped the concept of abstraction but surely can’t it be worked around by altering the stopping pattern? For example on the Windermere service in the up direction, you could have intermediate stops at Northampton, Tamworth, Crewe and Lancaster only. These stations currently have no more than 1tph direct between them so I’d imagine an additional service calling at these wouldn’t be considered abstractive.

Lancaster to Windermere and Lancaster to London would be very abstractive. As would London - Windermere due to the nature of the market.

The rest would be noise in the system.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Steam - Llanelli -Llandrindond Wells with an operating base at Pantyffynon. Open access , summer only "Major" stops only , timed dead stand on Cynghordi Viaduct.

 

[Bald Rick]

Steam - Llanelli -Llandrindond Wells with an operating base at Pantyffynon. Open access , summer only "Major" stops only , timed dead stand on Cynghordi Viaduct.

Sounds like someone with local knowledge and an excellent understanding of railway operation is needed to make that happen...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Sounds like someone with local knowledge and an excellent understanding of railway operation is needed to make that happen...

Possibly consider Llanelli- Tenby also. (from PF) , for variety. Not that there is a dearth of capacity down there. (Not calling Carmarthen)

Slight issue with track at the moment north of Llangennech.

 

[30907]

Assuming I had only 2 sets but 100% availability, they were bimode, and such trivia as paths existed: I would explore with Glasgow or Edinburgh and Liverpool to SW England, which are missing links in the present setup.
Something like Liverpool-Crewe-Hereford-Maindee Jns-Bristol-Plymouth or Paignton working back to Glasgow via WCML.
Edinburgh would be better for connections but more abstractive; there probably isn't time to run through from Perth or even Stirling via GLC.
Birmingham would make more money than Hereford but would be totally abstractive even if pathable.
I would avoid putting in loads of intermediate stops for the sake of overall journey time, though obviously this service is aimed mainly at the leisure market so not too time sensitive. That said, possibly Weston s M could be included.

 

[43096]

Steam - Llanelli -Llandrindond Wells with an operating base at Pantyffynon. Open access , summer only "Major" stops only , timed dead stand on Cynghordi Viaduct.

Wouldn’t it be better running that as a charter type operation, much as RCS did on the S&C this year?

 

[The Planner]

Something like Liverpool-Crewe-Hereford-Maindee Jns-Bristol-Plymouth or Paignton working back to Glasgow via WCML.

That is one I have considered in the past, though I probably would run it via Chester, Wrexham and avoid Crewe. I wouldn't run it north of Liverpool.

 

[backontrack]

Manchester Victoria to Aberdeen. (3 per day)

Calling at Preston, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell, Cumbernauld, Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Stonehaven and Aberdeen.

Birmingham New Street to Inverness. (1 per day)

Calling at Stafford, Preston, Penrith, Carlisle, Cumbernauld, Stirling, Perth, Pitlochry, Kingussie, Aviemore and Inverness.

 

[PTR 444]

Would a ‘Coastway Express’ type of service from Poole to Brighton/Eastbourne break the rule on abstraction?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Would a ‘Coastway Express’ type of service from Poole to Brighton/Eastbourne break the rule on abstraction?

I mean it would probably have no use but I suppose it probably would only abstract...

 

[mrcheek]

I realise it wouldnt be allowed, but I would love to restore the Bristol Temple Meads to Glasgow Central service, via the West Coast main Line.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would a ‘Coastway Express’ type of service from Poole to Brighton/Eastbourne break the rule on abstraction?

I mean it would probably have no use but I suppose it probably would only abstract...

Agreed. And it couldn’t be an express either. Although at least for the demand it would generate, it would be short enough to fit in P3 at Brighton.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Euston to Windermere

I'm surprised such a service doesn't exist

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Wouldn’t it be better running that as a charter type operation, much as RCS did on the S&C this year?

Probably the right model , though with walk on excursion tickets (no abstraction) - really is a market to be exploited with staycations and hopefully easements. Ticks a few boxes I reckon. (might even amuse myself by doing some sample timings)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm surprised such a service doesn't exist

It's such an easy connection that there's probably not a lot of point. The Windermere branch is barely more than an airport people mover, really.

 

[CW2]

Liverpool - St Helens - Warrington BQ - Hartford - Crewe - Stafford - Wellington - Shrewsbury (reverse) - Hereford - Abergavenny - Newport (reverse) - Bristol TM.
The end-to-end journey time wouldn't be spectacular, but it would provide a lot of missing links, and couldn't be accused of being primarily abstractive.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm surprised such a service doesn't exist

How many people make the trip on wet Tuesdays in February?

 

[tetudo boy]

A few WCML Services:

1. London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street (5tpd): London Euston - Milton Keynes Central - Rugby - Nuneaton (1tpd) - Tamworth (1tpd) - Litchfield Trent Valley (1tpd) - Stafford - Crewe (1tpd) - Liverpool South Parkway - Liverpool Lime Street
2. Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverly (8tpd): Liverpool Lime Street - St Helens Central (2tpd) - Preston - Lancaster - Oxenholme Lake District (3tpd) - Carlisle - Lockerbie (Then: ) - Carstairs (1tpd) - Motherwell (4tpd) - Glasgow Central (4tpd) (Or: ) - Haymarket (4tpd) - Edinburgh Waverly (4tpd)