Which bus do you dislike most, and why?

[fowler9]

The Arriva buses operated around your neck of the woods are either Commanders (CX06), ALX400s (CX55/06), Gemini 2s (MX61), Enviro400s (DK64/SK15) or Gemini 3 Hybrids (BT66/BW66/BV17) mate. If it's none of those, let me know the first part of registration and I can tell you what it is (if you're interested, lol).

I think Urban 90s are okay, but it depends what they're used on and how long you sit on them for. I find they're alright on the DAF/East Lancs combination, but on the Dennis Dart they're diabolically poor.

Cheers mate, I get the 80 or the 80A to work and to be fair we get a good mix. They seem to throw on whatever is available these days which includes everything from the oldest to the newest. I did actually mean to ask about this because other routes like the 82 and 86A seem to have a pretty dedicated fleet. We have even had the odd President. Will keep you posted if you can provide further info.

 

[moogal]

The Scania Omnicity. Cheaply built, poor quality, and with the second most uncomfortable seats behind the Urban 90. Only good thing to say for it is that the legroom is very good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Scania Omnicity. Cheaply built, poor quality, and with the second most uncomfortable seats behind the Urban 90. Only good thing to say for it is that the legroom is very good.

That's interesting as I like those, they always seemed well built to me.

What I do think look really cheap and nasty are any Alexander Dennis buses built prior to about 3 years ago, certainly if gasket glazed. Wright were always far better at looks.

 

[GusB]

That's interesting as I like those, they always seemed well built to me.

What I do think look really cheap and nasty are any Alexander Dennis buses built prior to about 3 years ago, certainly if gasket glazed. Wright were always far better at looks.

I would agree that the "smiley" look that ADL introduced was pretty awful, but I liked the original Enviro 300 design, and I think the 500 shared a similar front end. The new E400 is okay, and I do like the MMC design.

As far as Wright designs are concerned, I've never been a huge fan. I liked the Endeavour/Commander era, but I wasn't too enamoured with the Eclipse/Solar. As for the Gemini 3/Streetdeck...

Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder, I suppose!

 

[pemma]

That's interesting as I like those, they always seemed well built to me.

What I do think look really cheap and nasty are any Alexander Dennis buses built prior to about 3 years ago, certainly if gasket glazed. Wright were always far better at looks.

Indeed. On High Peak's Transpeak route the Scania Omnicities provided much better ride quality than the Enviros that replaced them. A refurbishment of the Scania Omnicities including new seats would have provided a better passenger travelling environment than the newer Enviros.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Scania Omnicity. Cheaply built, poor quality, and with the second most uncomfortable seats behind the Urban 90. Only good thing to say for it is that the legroom is very good.

I think it depends who's had the Omnicity and how they've looked after them. Up here the Omnicities with Arriva and Go have Civic v3 seats, from new, and they've always been good. The Omnicities with Yorkshire Tiger are terrible though.

As for Urban90s, they were normally horrid but actually not too bad on Arriva's Lowlanders.

And yes, I hate the E200. Just nasty.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What I do think look really cheap and nasty are any Alexander Dennis buses built prior to about 3 years ago, certainly if gasket glazed. Wright were always far better at looks.

Think it depends, the ALX200 always looked naff but the 300 was pretty good. The 400 was also a bit naff, though it could be that the ones we see up here now are knackered ex-London bangers that should have been turned into baked beans cans years ago. I always liked the PS.

 

[fowler9]

The buses used on the 500 from Liverpool to JLA say on the outside that they have "Luxury seats". Please!

 

[Statto]

Anyone remember the Wright Pathfinder 320 buses, these were the first generation of low floor buses, but they were awful in every way, they shook, rattle & roll, i remember being on an LLW on the H91 the panelling was falling apart, the Arriva London ones were transferred to Arriva North West about 2000, not sure is any survive in preservation.

 

[J-2739]

Anyone remember the Wright Pathfinder 320 buses, these were the first generation of low floor buses, but they were awful in every way, they shook, rattle & roll, i remember being on an LLW on the H91 the panelling was falling apart, the Arriva London ones were transferred to Arriva North West about 2000, not sure is any survive in preservation.

I've always wanted to go on one of them, they seem pretty interesting.

So few of them were built though, so they don't really seem as significant as the first low floor double decker or the first Dart.

 

[Mikey C]

I'm not a fan of the Gemini 3, it might be beneficial to operators and save fuel, but to me is a big step backwards over the Gemini 2, with its large windows, and which looked particularly stylish with bonded glazing...

The ones with the revised styling also have large pillars at the front which are quite intrusive

The MCV Evoseti is a lot more attractive

 

[pemma]

The buses used on the 500 from Liverpool to JLA say on the outside that they have "Luxury seats". Please!

Not been on the current buses but from a photo it looks like they are normal Arriva style seating. Do they have extra padding or leather covers or something?

Although, if the target market is foreign tourists some may consider them luxury compared to what they get back home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not a fan of the Gemini 3, it might be beneficial to operators and save fuel, but to me is a big step backwards over the Gemini 2, with its large windows, and which looked particularly stylish with bonded glazing...

I actually thought the Gemini 2 looked best with gasket glazing. It seems to me that square windows with bonded glazing or rounded ones with gasket glazing look best. The opposites really don't.

I do agree that the small upstairs windows look odd, though. Allegedly it's for weight reasons, but I also wonder if it's a stylistic point relating to the Borismaster.

 

[90019]

The ones with the revised styling also have large pillars at the front which are quite intrusive

The most recent Lothian ones have windows in the front pillars and some in the roof as well, which makes a big difference.

 

[Statto]

Not been on the current buses but from a photo it looks like they are normal Arriva style seating. Do they have extra padding or leather covers or something?

Although, if the target market is foreign tourists some may consider them luxury compared to what they get back home.

Not really, the seats are similar to the latest Arriva NW Enviro 400s, passengers might as well get the 86A, only difference the 500 is an express route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The most recent Lothian ones have windows in the front pillars and some in the roof as well, which makes a big difference.

The Lothian livery seems to uniquely suit them for some reason. In TfL red they just look weird.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think it depends who's had the Omnicity and how they've looked after them. Up here the Omnicities with Arriva and Go have Civic v3 seats, from new, and they've always been good. The Omnicities with Yorkshire Tiger are terrible though.

As for Urban90s, they were normally horrid but actually not too bad on Arriva's Lowlanders.

And yes, I hate the E200. Just nasty.

Think you're right on the first point. I've experience the North East ones and they're fine; as I said, had a couple on Max services recently and they were fine. A few creaks here and there but they are 12 years old!

I found the Urban 90s awful on Arriva's Lowlanders. Fine for a short hop but not when travelling from York to Selby or Durham to Middlesbrough.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I had the privilege of travelling on the Coastliner 840 from Pickering to Whitby yesterday, with a Wright Gemini 2 B9 outwards and a Wright Gemini 3 B5TL on the return. Thought that might be worthy of a comparison.

The Gemini 2 was a good solid ride throughout though a little claustrophobic. It handled the climbs ok as I knew it would, especially the climb out of Goathland.

I was more interested in how the smaller, less powerful B5TL would handle the hills. Well, it climbed out of Whitby no problem. Blue Bank out of Sleights is a gruelling climb for any vehicle being a long 1:5. The driver handled the climb well, when reaching the steepest point by allowing the revs to drop and it dropping from 2nd to 1st and we then made our way reasonably well.

At Goathland, the real true comparison as the double run is the same for all journeys. It's a 1:4 out of the village and the B5 slipped into crawler (as had the B9) and handled that hill with no problem. Same with the climb at Saltergate, which it fairly flew up.

There does seem to be an obsession with enthusiasts about "power" but the fact is that modern vehicles can kick out as much as required with a smaller engine; the issues that some vehicles have is more in the set up (how the gearbox is mapped etc) rather than the inherent vehicle type.

I'd also mention that the Eclipse 3 had skylights which were a bit of a mixed blessing. Was getting quite warm but that and the absence of grab poles make it less claustrophobic than the Eclipse 2 despite the smaller windows. When sat on the bus (which is the important bit, not standing outside looking at the thing), you don't notice the window size and it's not like peering out like a tank commander!

Have to say the legroom on the Gemini 3 was also very generous; I'm a bit of a short ar5e but even someone 6'6 would be fine I would suggest!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Anyone remember the Wright Pathfinder 320 buses, these were the first generation of low floor buses, but they were awful in every way, they shook, rattle & roll, i remember being on an LLW on the H91 the panelling was falling apart, the Arriva London ones were transferred to Arriva North West about 2000, not sure is any survive in preservation.

Don't know about that. Badgerline had some that lasted some considerable time (withdrawn in 2013) and they weren't that bad IIRC.

One of these did linger in a non PSV role but that's now been scrapped AFAIK

 

[Mikey C]

The most recent Lothian ones have windows in the front pillars and some in the roof as well, which makes a big difference.

They do look a LOT nicer. I include a Gemini 2 (with bonded glazing) for comparison

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Anyone remember the Wright Pathfinder 320 buses, these were the first generation of low floor buses, but they were awful in every way, they shook, rattle & roll, i remember being on an LLW on the H91 the panelling was falling apart, the Arriva London ones were transferred to Arriva North West about 2000, not sure is any survive in preservation.

I think (but could be mistaken) that Yorkshire Rider Huddersfield had a fleet of 6 or so from around 1997ish, these were Huddersfield's first low-floor buses, and the last new YR ones prior to the Badgerline takeover. They were fairly well-specced If I recall correctly, and as they were dedicated to my local route I got them regularly. I still preferred the Atlanteans that were as old as me though!

The absolute worst though are the Plaxton Centros that Yorkshire Tiger have at Waterloo depot. Horribly rattly and woefully underpowered for the routes round Denby Dale they seem to often be on. People moan about MCV Evolutions but I much prefer them as most of Waterloo's ones at least have enough poke to get up Red Hill (between Kirkburton and Shelley) at faster than walking pace!

The only exception being the one which seems to be fitted out for airport services as it has great big full-height luggage stacks taking up most of the front 3rd of the saloon- meaning a lower seated capacity even though they've been provided with a seat pitch that makes a 153 feel like the Royal Train!

 

[MCR247]

They do look a LOT nicer. I include a Gemini 2 (with bonded glazing) for comparison
]

Have to say, the bonded glazing and glass staircase make a massive difference to how the Gemini 3 looks. The gasket glazing (only one I've seen in person) really doesn't look good (all my opinion of course!)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think (but could be mistaken) that Yorkshire Rider Huddersfield had a fleet of 6 or so from around 1997ish, these were Huddersfield's first low-floor buses, and the last new YR ones prior to the Badgerline takeover. They were fairly well-specced If I recall correctly, and as they were dedicated to my local route I got them regularly. I still preferred the Atlanteans that were as old as me though!

The absolute worst though are the Plaxton Centros that Yorkshire Tiger have at Waterloo depot. Horribly rattly and woefully underpowered for the routes round Denby Dale they seem to often be on. People moan about MCV Evolutions but I much prefer them as most of Waterloo's ones at least have enough poke to get up Red Hill (between Kirkburton and Shelley) at faster than walking pace!

The only exception being the one which seems to be fitted out for airport services as it has great big full-height luggage stacks taking up most of the front 3rd of the saloon- meaning a lower seated capacity even though they've been provided with a seat pitch that makes a 153 feel like the Royal Train!

Yorkshire Rider was bought by Badgerline in 1994 so may have been ordered post takeover. L reg onwards were Badgerline stock.

 

[MotCO]

They do look a LOT nicer. I include a Gemini 2 (with bonded glazing) for comparison
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The short wheelbase of the London Gemini B5TL also makes the bus look silly. The long wheelbase Lothian bus, and extra glazing makes that bus look more elegant.

 

[GusB]

Have to say, the bonded glazing and glass staircase make a massive difference to how the Gemini 3 looks. The gasket glazing (only one I've seen in person) really doesn't look good (all my opinion of course!)

I would definitely agree with you there. I do also quite like Lothian's new livery application too. I'd imagine that the panes in the staircase would be rather expensive to replace, though.

 

[Mikey C]

The short wheelbase of the London Gemini B5TL also makes the bus look silly. The long wheelbase Lothian bus, and extra glazing makes that bus look more elegant.

Yes I've always though the hybrid Volvo chassis looks really unbalanced with its massive rear overhang, you expect it to do wheelies

 

[plcd1]

The short wheelbase of the London Gemini B5TL also makes the bus look silly. The long wheelbase Lothian bus, and extra glazing makes that bus look more elegant.

To be fair the photographs aren't a strict comparison because the London vehicle is a B5LH (hybrid) which all have the rear overhang. The Lothian one is a longer wheelbase B5TL which don't have the overhang even at shorter length. Lothian also use a rather higher standard spec than TfL are prepared to fund via their contract prices.

I haven't seen interior shots for the Lothian B5TLs but the B5LHs in London have a rather bizarre seating layout at the rear lower deck - again because of the way Volvo package their engine and transmission components. Certain seats are not very nice to use and have restricted headroom. They're decent enough buses overall provided you avoid the pitfalls.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The short wheelbase of the London Gemini B5TL also makes the bus look silly. The long wheelbase Lothian bus, and extra glazing makes that bus look more elegant.

Lothian have long (!) gone for very long wheelbase deckers, I guess the longest you can do on two axles. I always thought they look much better than the stubby London versions.

 

[Mikey C]

To be fair the photographs aren't a strict comparison because the London vehicle is a B5LH (hybrid) which all have the rear overhang. The Lothian one is a longer wheelbase B5TL which don't have the overhang even at shorter length. Lothian also use a rather higher standard spec than TfL are prepared to fund via their contract prices.

I haven't seen interior shots for the Lothian B5TLs but the B5LHs in London have a rather bizarre seating layout at the rear lower deck - again because of the way Volvo package their engine and transmission components. Certain seats are not very nice to use and have restricted headroom. They're decent enough buses overall provided you avoid the pitfalls.

The B5LH is very popular in London, but I agree the lower rear layout is far worse than the E400H (or Borismaster)

 

[507021]

Cheers mate, I get the 80 or the 80A to work and to be fair we get a good mix. They seem to throw on whatever is available these days which includes everything from the oldest to the newest. I did actually mean to ask about this because other routes like the 82 and 86A seem to have a pretty dedicated fleet. We have even had the odd President. Will keep you posted if you can provide further info.

Sorry for the late reply mate. Yeah the 80 and 80A does seem quite mixed at the moment, I think once the new buses on the 79 and 79D have settled in and the buses they've replaced have left for their new depots, there'll be more Gemini 2s on the 80 and 80A.

Those Presidents (LJ51 reg'd) have left now mate, the Gemini 1s (LJ51/LF02) will be leaving soon too. There's still a lot of buses due to move around between depots, I'll try and keep those interested posted in the relevant thread.