Which little-used stations might be candidates for closure in the new age of cost-cutting?

[miklcct]

The criteria to close a station should not be based on cost cutting in my view, as the cost to stop a train at a station is minimal.

In my opinion, closing a station without closing the line should only be made on a capacity basis, i.e. when the demand of fast trains is so high that there is no longer track capacity to run slow trains without making the fast trains overcrowded, forcing the closure of stations which are only served by slow trains.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Ha ha ha! Says @Bertie the bus from the sofa. At Okehampton you can see people are walking out of the station having just left the incoming train. Many more were still leaving the train, and in the 10 minutes before the 1525 departure another 50+ passengers arrived at the station.

At Exeter the picture was 15 minutes before departure, many more arrived on the platform and others arrived on the delayed Paddington arrival (well done GWR for holding the connection). Also, most passengers travelling from Exeter were on the service on arrival having boarded at Exeter Central.

I’ve never taken or posted any pictures like this before but having read the nonsense written by those who believe ‘rural’ trains cart air around, I decided the reality should be demonstrated. Next time I’ll ask them to line up for a group photo!!

Where exactly do you expect me to be? In Devon perhaps? You posted some photos and claimed they showed just how busy services in Devon are. They didn't so don't blame me for you posting photos of 30 people on a platform and claiming they show that services are so busy they need a 3 car 158.

 

[BrianW]

I’ve read this thread having travelled to Okehampton today and also witnessed trains to Barnstaple. The Okehampton line is thriving, revitalising the town and wider community. What stood out at Okehampton was the number of passengers with luggage taking taxis or lifts to the station.

Barnstaple trains certainly need the 3-car 158s and when Okehampton Parkway is funded and built, I doubt very much 2-car 150s will suffice on many services.

I have no doubt that Ilfracombe and Bideford would benefit in a similar way. However, that’s unlikely to happen unless the wider benefits of rail and total cost of motoring are considered in future investment appraisals.

As for these routes requiring subsidies I’m not aware of the data being available to justify that statement. From my experience this year, carriages on services in London and SE are typically emptier than those in Devon. As for commuting, office occupancy figures for my company across the UK indicate that WFH is more popular in London and SE than elsewhere, and rail usage would appear to reflect this.

The pictures are Okehampton at 1515 today and some of the passengers waiting to board the 1619 Barnstaple at Exeter St Davids.

My conclusion is @21C195 Brentor and some other contributors underestimate the popularity of rail travel in Devon and Cornwall.

Busy throughout the year. The holiday season is much longer nowadays with people taking several shorter breaks rather than one a year with holiday parks opening from February to October half-term. Whilst there is higher visitor usage from May to September, this is counterbalanced by very high student traffic on the local network during the academic year. Many students attend higher education at Exeter College from a wide geographical area, and since the timetable varies for each student (not 8.45 - 3.15 for all students) the traffic is spread through the day.

What I see in the Exeter St Davids photo, timed at 16.04, is a lot of people spread out near the bottom of the stairs on a relatively narrow island platform, divided into platforms 4a and 4b, with two trains shown due at Platform 4 and a train for London due at Platform 5. In passing I also observe the narrow stairs and persons with a buggy not using the signposted lift. Some will be taking the Barnstaple train.

I guess there will be ridership figures to inform decisions into the future, together with projections regarding e.g. WFH and holidays; and politicians will use the ones that suit.

 

[Xavi]

Where exactly do you expect me to be? In Devon perhaps? You posted some photos and claimed they showed just how busy services in Devon are. They didn't so don't blame me for you posting photos of 30 people on a platform and claiming they show that services are so busy they need a 3 car 158.

The pictures were not about proving total numbers. Perhaps you’d be happier with 10 minutes of platform edge video? I made reference to needing 2 or 3-car trains and that’s what I witnessed first hand as a passenger today. If you don’t want to believe me that’s fine, just do everyone on here a favour and keep your uninformed negativity (there’s plenty of that on here I see) to yourself.

Your negative attitude to other contributors’ postings is very amusing.

Some will be taking the Barnstaple train.

I guess there will be ridership figures to inform decisions into the future, together with projections regarding e.g. WFH and holidays; and politicians will use the ones that suit.

From being there myself and viewing as I waited my train to Exmouth, I’d estimate 90% of those facing platform 3 travelled towards Barnstaple and, as mentioned earlier, many more passengers joined them before the departure 15 minutes later. The 3-car 158 was circa 80% full on departure.

Totally agree that politicians will use the figures that suit. You can make a spreadsheet tell you anything…

 

[Bald Rick]

As for these routes requiring subsidies I’m not aware of the data being available to justify that statement.

That’s because it’s not publicly available. However similar data for Scotrail is, where you will see that with the exception of Edinburgh - Glasgow, no services even come close to covering their operational costs, and require significant subsidy. That includes the heavily used commuter services around Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Take it from me, the hourly service to Okehampton will cost something in the region of £4m-£6m a year to run (Marginal cost). That will need around 1.5million passengers a year to break even.

 

[RPI]

Those photos show about 15 people at Okehampton and maybe 30 at Exeter. They don't back up the rest of your post. 30 passengers don't require a 3 car 158.

Two things, it was quiet yesterday being the Sunday after a strike day, secondly, that is St Davids, the majority board Barnstaple services at Central.

 

[Starmill]

Two things, it was quiet yesterday being the Sunday after a strike day, secondly, that is St Davids, the majority board Barnstaple services at Central.

You would if anything expect the day after a strike day to be busier...

 

[nw1]

You would if anything expect the day after a strike day to be busier...

Whatever the situation was yesterday: unless we want to go for Beeching on acid, I'd hope that anyone (such as the poster some months ago upthread) suggesting closure of lines such as Barnstaple or Okehampton (which has only just opened for heaven's sake) would be laughed out of court.

While we are enduring economic hard times this should not be an excuse for irreversible slash-and-burn policies.

 

[yorksrob]

You would if anything expect the day after a strike day to be busier...

That's not strictly true. I've noticed that days surrounding strike days also tend to be quieter, probably because people are being warned of continuing disruption.

 

[Techniquest]

That's not strictly true. I've noticed that days surrounding strike days also tend to be quieter, probably because people are being warned of continuing disruption.

This is certainly true. I was planning a journey yesterday, and all I kept getting was warnings and recommendations to avoid TfW services as they were expected to be very busy. So I went over to WMR and GWR who had nice and quiet trains! That was great news for me as I was 100% not in the mood for overcrowded trains, especially as I had my cycle with me.

So while TfW were telling people not to travel unless essential, WMR and GWR up my way at least were great to travel on!

 

[RPI]

You would if anything expect the day after a strike day to be busier...

No, it was eerily quiet yesterday, I worked a mid morning Exeter Paignton and there were 37 people on after Teignmouth, normally be 4 times that at least, the weather was a bit hit and miss though

 

[Starmill]

Whatever the situation was yesterday: unless we want to go for Beeching on acid, I'd hope that anyone (such as the poster some months ago upthread) suggesting closure of lines such as Barnstaple or Okehampton (which has only just opened for heaven's sake) would be laughed out of court.

While we are enduring economic hard times this should not be an excuse for irreversible slash-and-burn policies.

I'm not sure anyone's calling for closure? It seems to me that people are just pointing out that large subsidies are required to run these services, which is correct.

 

[JamesT]

The criteria to close a station should not be based on cost cutting in my view, as the cost to stop a train at a station is minimal.

In my opinion, closing a station without closing the line should only be made on a capacity basis, i.e. when the demand of fast trains is so high that there is no longer track capacity to run slow trains without making the fast trains overcrowded, forcing the closure of stations which are only served by slow trains.

On what do you base your assertion that the cost to stop trains at a station is minimal?
If it's staffed, then you're saving the cost of those staff. (Or at least there may be somewhere else you get more benefit from). You're saving the costs of maintaining the station.
Longer-term, there may be some track/signalling simplifications that could be made if it no longer has to have the station there.
Not quite a saving, but if you can speed up a service by losing a stop then you might attract more customers than used the station you've closed?

 

[BrianW]

Returning to the question, and questioning it without going back over the 221 posts in between, so sorry if it's been aired ...

I don't see many stations being slated for closure, due to the bureaucracy/ red tape/ democratic processes involved, noting the number of stations with no or minimal services.

I do see an age of cost-cutting, or maybe more accurately a time of apparent or claimed cost-cutting, for PR purposes- cutting bureacracy, burocrats (formerly Eurocrats), which we have had in fine words from time immemorial. My job and journeys are essential; you are an idler, etc.

'The axe' will be applied wherever it is expedient, and presented as 'good news' or on a 'good day to bury bad news'- remember Stephen Byers?

 

[yorksrob]

This is certainly true. I was planning a journey yesterday, and all I kept getting was warnings and recommendations to avoid TfW services as they were expected to be very busy. So I went over to WMR and GWR who had nice and quiet trains! That was great news for me as I was 100% not in the mood for overcrowded trains, especially as I had my cycle with me.

So while TfW were telling people not to travel unless essential, WMR and GWR up my way at least were great to travel on!

I enjoyed some very pleasant, uncrowded train journeys yesterday and on Friday. Not necessarily good for the railway, but if life provides lemons, make lemonade, as they say !

 

[Xavi]

That’s because it’s not publicly available. However similar data for Scotrail is, where you will see that with the exception of Edinburgh - Glasgow, no services even come close to covering their operational costs, and require significant subsidy. That includes the heavily used commuter services around Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Take it from me, the hourly service to Okehampton will cost something in the region of £4m-£6m a year to run (Marginal cost). That will need around 1.5million passengers a year to break even.

Marginal operating costs (2021-22 prices) are:
£400k track maintenance (Coleford - Okehampton)
£550k fuel
£325k rolling stock
£550k crew
£1.825m total

Source ORR / Network Rail.

 

[Techniquest]

I enjoyed some very pleasant, uncrowded train journeys yesterday and on Friday. Not necessarily good for the railway, but if life provides lemons, make lemonade, as they say !

Quite so! I happily made up for not going anywhere on Thursday, if the strike had not been on I'd have been away on Wednesday and Thursday, spending a fair bit on fares. Instead, I had to make do with a much more local adventure on Wednesday and an extremely local adventure yesterday. Instead of £50+ on fares, depending on whether I'd have done London or Manchester, I spent £32.60 across the two days. WMR and GWR took my money quite happily, and I kept my non-fare money to food and drink in supermarkets. Which I'm sure the shop with the blue and red logo will have been happy about, more profits for them!

So I suppose I should thank the railway for going on strike, it saved me money

 

[Bald Rick]

Marginal operating costs (2021-22 prices) are:
£400k track maintenance (Coleford - Okehampton)
£550k fuel
£325k rolling stock
£550k crew
£1.825m total

Source ORR / Network Rail.

That will be for the two hourly service, and doesn’t include marginal overhead costs.

 

[Xavi]

That will be for the two hourly service, and doesn’t include marginal overhead costs.

Correct, no marginal overhead as unlikely to be any impact. Fuel, crew, lease, and maintenance are the hourly service. Not sure of the source of the maintenance figure, I’ll ask someone who may know.

 

[Bald Rick]

Correct, no marginal overhead as unlikely to be any impact. Fuel, crew, lease, and maintenance are the hourly service. Not sure of the source of the maintenance figure, I’ll ask someone who may know.

That crew figure is roughly half what it will be for an hourly service, as is the fuel. I suspect the estimates are wrong!

 

[paul1609]

That crew figure is roughly half what it will be for an hourly service, as is the fuel. I suspect the estimates are wrong!

Network Rail seriously underestimating costs on pet projects? Shock, horror.

 

[Bald Rick]

Network Rail seriously underestimating costs on pet projects? Shock, horror.

you might remember that NR delivered the project rather under budget

I don’t think NR is in the business of estimating TOC operating costs. It would be interesting to see the source of the numbers quoted. The train crew number is definitely well under unless GWR traincrew have taken a big pay cut. And I can’t get the fuel cost to less than a million a year, even allowing for First Groups legendary hedging contracts.

 

[BrianW]

I enjoyed some very pleasant, uncrowded train journeys yesterday and on Friday. Not necessarily good for the railway, but if life provides lemons, make lemonade, as they say !

Sign of the times: no Eurostar at Asford or Ebbsfleet until at least 2025. Shock, horror.

Eurostar services may not stop in Kent before 2025

The decision not to call at Ashford or Ebbsfleet is described as a "real challenge" for Kent.

www.bbc.co.uk

Who wants to go to 'Europe' anyway; what for?

 

[nw1]

Sign of the times: no Eurostar at Asford or Ebbsfleet until at least 2025. Shock, horror.

Eurostar services may not stop in Kent before 2025

The decision not to call at Ashford or Ebbsfleet is described as a "real challenge" for Kent.

www.bbc.co.uk

Who wants to go to 'Europe' anyway; what for?

The B-word to blame of course, but the Schengen zone's new border bureaucracy (the USA started all this under George W. Bush, and now the rest of the western world seems to want to jump on the bandwagon) doesn't help either. So both the UK government and Schengen jointly to blame. Sad, though I do also think it's a bit of a cheek for a Conservative-led council to complain about it, as they were the party that started the whole shannanigans. Maybe the leader of Ashford council needs to reflect on that before complaining about something that was basically his party's doing.

But I suppose Eurostar was introduced in an era where "hard borders" were seen as increasingly unfashionable. The 2020s, of course, are quite the opposite, sadly.

 

[Mikey C]

The B-word to blame of course, but the Schengen zone's new border bureaucracy (the USA started all this under George W. Bush, and now the rest of the western world seems to want to jump on the bandwagon) doesn't help either. So both the UK government and Schengen jointly to blame. Sad, though I do also think it's a bit of a cheek for a Conservative-led council to complain about it, as they were the party that started the whole shannanigans. Maybe the leader of Ashford council needs to reflect on that before complaining about something that was basically his party's doing.

But I suppose Eurostar was introduced in an era where "hard borders" were seen as increasingly unfashionable. The 2020s, of course, are quite the opposite, sadly.

Hardly any Eurostar trains stopped in Ashford before Brexit anyway, the loss of services from Ebbsfleet is perhaps more significant, and even there the station was WAY bigger than it needed to be, with vast areas of unused car parks.

 

[philthetube]

On what do you base your assertion that the cost to stop trains at a station is minimal?
If it's staffed, then you're saving the cost of those staff. (Or at least there may be somewhere else you get more benefit from). You're saving the costs of maintaining the station.
Longer-term, there may be some track/signalling simplifications that could be made if it no longer has to have the station there.
Not quite a saving, but if you can speed up a service by losing a stop then you might attract more customers than used the station you've closed?

I am struggling to think of any stand alone stations which are staffed and likely to close, there are a few which could be if there are line closures.

 

[Xavi]

That crew figure is roughly half what it will be for an hourly service, as is the fuel. I suspect the estimates are wrong!

Apologies, caught up with colleague this week who checked the detail. Crew should indeed be double (2-hourly number wrongly quoted to me in previous conversation).

I’ve done a quick fuel calculation myself:

3mpg for a 150
15 round trips of 76 miles for 363 days = 414,000 miles
= 138,000 gallons
= 627,000 litres @ 90p = £564k

Interesting to note the actual NR to GWR charges too (I don’t know the basis of the previously quoted figure):
Okehampton station 21/22 = £80k *
414,000 miles cl150 track access @16.4p * = £68k
1.5% (based on total GWR train km operated**) of the fixed 21/22 NR charge of £81m * to GWR = £1.2m
* sourced from NR ** sourced from ORR

That would give revised figures of:

Lease /maintenance £0.3m
Crew £1.1m
Fuel £0.6m
NR charges to GWR £1.3m
TOTAL £3.3m

The NR charges allocation was possibly reduced in the figures previously quoted to me because of the route which is mostly simple single track.

 

[Bald Rick]

Apologies, caught up with colleague this week who checked the detail. Crew should indeed be double (2-hourly number wrongly quoted to me in previous conversation).

I’ve done a quick fuel calculation myself:

3mpg for a 150
15 round trips of 76 miles for 363 days = 414,000 miles
= 138,000 gallons
= 627,000 litres @ 90p = £564k

Interesting to note the actual NR to GWR charges too (I don’t know the basis of the previously quoted figure):
Okehampton station 21/22 = £80k *
414,000 miles cl150 track access @16.4p * = £68k
1.5% (based on total GWR train km operated**) of the fixed 21/22 NR charge of £81m * to GWR = £1.2m
* sourced from NR ** sourced from ORR

That would give revised figures of:

Lease /maintenance £0.3m
Crew £1.1m
Fuel £0.6m
NR charges to GWR £1.3m
TOTAL £3.3m

The NR charges allocation was possibly reduced in the figures previously quoted to me because of the route which is mostly simple single track.

3mpg for a 150 is rather optimistic on that duty. And wholesale ‘red’ diesel is now rather more than 90p/ litre!

and there is marginal overhead, albeit not much. But 10% is about the minimum.

 

[Xavi]

3mpg for a 150 is rather optimistic on that duty. And wholesale ‘red’ diesel is now rather more than 90p/ litre!

and there is marginal overhead, albeit not much. But 10% is about the minimum.

3 mpg used since that’s the low end of the typically quoted range. Like all energy prices, red diesel is volatile: 94p/litre as recently as 9 August 2022 and 60p a year ago.