Which parts of the network, if electric would take the most diesels off the rails ?

[YourMum666]

Which parts of the railway network (when electrified) would take the most diesels off the railway ?

 

[Snow1964]

The section from Bath (Bathampton) to Bristol sees 4-5 trains each way per hour, plus some freight.

Of course would only make a significant difference if connected to existing electrification and Chippenham and local trains via Westbury converted too.

 

[A0wen]

Surely the lines through Birmingham Moor St and Snow Hill must be up there ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Chiltern’s overall Network should definitely be a candidate here?

 

[zwk500]

Which parts of the railway network (when electrified) would take the most diesels off the railway ?

Is there a limit of STkm or cost?

I'd say Chiltern would probably be the largest amount of diesel services since Birmingham Snow Hill lines went to 4tph but it depends where you draw the lines.

 

[PG]

If we think along the lines of various freight trains that are diesel hauled throughout because that is easier than switching locos, then IIRC somewhere around North London is about a mile and a half which if it were to be electrified would enable many freights to do away with diesel haulage completely. No idea if there are sufficient electric locos available to haul all these trains?

 

[TheWalrus]

As I mentioned elsewhere on the forum Didcot-Oxford would take 4toh, 6 if XC got bi modes. Reading to Basingstoke could do 3.

Surely the lines through Birmingham Moor St and Snow Hill must be up there ?

That should be top of thelist with Didcot-Oxford in my opinion.

 

[zwk500]

If we think along the lines of various freight trains that are diesel hauled throughout because that is easier than switching locos, then IIRC somewhere around North London is about a mile and a half which if it were to be electrified would enable many freights to do away with diesel haulage completely. No idea if there are sufficient electric locos available to haul all these trains?

You'd also need to do the terminals as well.

As I mentioned elsewhere on the forum Didcot-Oxford would take 4toh, 6 if XC got bi modes. Reading to Basingstoke could do 3.

But XC don't have bi-modes and aren't in line to get any. Didcot-Oxford would let the hourly stopper be replaced by an re-extended Pad-Didcot and the IETs to use electricity through to Oxford. That's probably the single best return per STkm on the network, Bristol both ways being second (again because of the IETs).

EWR from Oxford to MK would permit 2tph from the off to go EMU (Better than Uckfield, Marshlink, or Reading-Basingstoke which would only be 1tph). Wire Bletchley-Bedford as well and you can add the 1tph Oxf-Bed and 1tph Marston Vale service in as well. These sections are also among the more affordable due to the rebuilding already being half done on the western half and the lack of serious engineering challenges on the eastern section.

In terms of volume of DMUs removed, Chiltern would probably win it but you'd need to get the entire network out at least as far as Banbury and Oxford converted to really notice it.

 

[YourMum666]

Is there a limit of STkm or cost?

I'd say Chiltern would probably be the largest amount of diesel services since Birmingham Snow Hill lines went to 4tph but it depends where you draw the lines.

A cost limit

 

[zwk500]

A cost limit

Cost wise,
1. Didcot to Oxford
2. Bristol Parkway to Bristol TM

Neither remove many DMUs but both allow bimodes to switch to electric running. Both would be among the cheapest schemes going as most of the work has already been done.

 

[NSE]

Whilst not in terms of tph, I find it interesting that some small stretches could make big changes. I.e. Uckfield and Marshlink. Whilst it’s generally 1tph each way, they run sections of service over electrified lines. Plus, they run empty between Eastbourne and Selhurst for servicing and maintenance. Not the longest ECS but electrifying the two lines would mean SN go 100% electric. The 171’s could then be cascaded to replace Sprinters. I’m no techy wizard, but I presume newer diesels are more fuel efficient than older ones?

 

[A0wen]

As I mentioned elsewhere on the forum Didcot-Oxford would take 4toh, 6 if XC got bi modes. Reading to Basingstoke could do 3.


That should be top of thelist with Didcot-Oxford in my opinion.

On the basis XC doesn't have bi-modes - then actually you're looking at 4tph - I suspect the Snow Hill lines are more than that - even if you didn't wire the Chiltern in its entirety and focused instead on Leamington, Stratford, Kidderminster and Worcester.

 

[zwk500]

On the basis XC doesn't have bi-modes - then actually you're looking at 4tph - I suspect the Snow Hill lines are more than that - even if you didn't wire the Chiltern in its entirety and focused instead on Leamington, Stratford, Kidderminster and Worcester.

Snow Hill lines are 4tph for the foreseeable.

 

[A0wen]

Snow Hill lines are 4tph for the foreseeable.

TBF I hadn't checked - but given those are stop / start 'inner suburban' style commuter services running through the UK's 2nd city, it would have far greater impact than Didcot - Oxford which is an 'outer suburban' limited stop in a largely rural area.

If I were spending the money, it would go on the West Mids every time.

 

[zwk500]

TBF I hadn't checked - but given those are stop / start 'inner suburban' style commuter services running through the UK's 2nd city, it would have far greater impact than Didcot - Oxford which is an 'outer suburban' limited stop in a largely rural area.

If I were spending the money, it would go on the West Mids every time.

So I'd do Didcot-oxford because it's basically as ready as it'll ever be for work to start on site, and having Oxford wired ticks another box for EWR and Chiltern.

However I agree without the benefits for city-centre air quality and so on would make the Snow Hill lines a major target. The problem is phasing it properly, because as you pointed out you'd need to get to Worcester before you can start realising the benefits fully.

 

[adamedwards]

At the other end of the scale, Oxenholme to Windermere ought to be a no brainer given the 4 trains per day from Manchester Airport run under the wires for the vast majority of the journey and the electrification is simply wiring a single track with no points. Indeed this ought to be a test location for some carbon fibre posts to minimise the insulation required using metal and reducing the expensive foundations in rocky terrain. Once done the entire service is 100% electric and the 195s freed up can go to replace older units elsewhere in Northern's franchise. There's no shortage of EMUs needing a new home.

 

[Iskra]

At the other end of the scale, Oxenholme to Windermere ought to be a no brainer given the 4 trains per day from Manchester Airport run under the wires for the vast majority of the journey and the electrification is simply wiring a single track with no points. Indeed this ought to be a test location for some carbon fibre posts to minimise the insulation required using metal and reducing the expensive foundations in rocky terrain. Once done the entire service is 100% electric and the 195s freed up can go to replace older units elsewhere in Northern's franchise. There's no shortage of EMUs needing a new home.

Agreed, then do the Furness line afterwards.

 

[YourMum666]

How many diesels would be displaced if electrifying Chippenham to Bristol happens?

 

[A0wen]

At the other end of the scale, Oxenholme to Windermere ought to be a no brainer given the 4 trains per day from Manchester Airport run under the wires for the vast majority of the journey and the electrification is simply wiring a single track with no points. Indeed this ought to be a test location for some carbon fibre posts to minimise the insulation required using metal and reducing the expensive foundations in rocky terrain. Once done the entire service is 100% electric and the 195s freed up can go to replace older units elsewhere in Northern's franchise. There's no shortage of EMUs needing a new home.

I suspect the problem with Windermere might be some of the bridges and level crossings, especially given the level of farm traffic in that area, which makes it more problematic. Crossings like this https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.3...EmmJqi2W87rxFVjA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu which have high voltage wires running across the line for example.

Windermere is *ideal* for a battery OHLE hybrid EMU - it's a 20 mile trip (~ 10 each way), so a Battery - Hybrid unit could easily charge whilst under the 25kv wires coming from Manchester and easily complete a 20 mile round trip on batteries.

Agreed, then do the Furness line afterwards.

That's another one which would probably make more sense as battery / OHL hybrid. It's about 40 miles each way from Carnforth to Barrow - Stadler FLIRTs have got a 150km battery range, which is just under 100 miles, so again, easily covered by a hybrid unit and if necessary a short distance of OHL in the vicinity of Barrow station for charging purposes.

 

[daodao]

Liverpool South Parkway-Warrington Central-Deansgate, with trains from Sheffield to Manchester terminating at Piccadilly (main trainshed).

 

[A0wen]

Liverpool South Parkway-Warrington Central-Deansgate, with trains from Sheffield to Manchester terminating at Piccadilly (main trainshed).

This is another of those nasty ones with 3rd rail and OHLE cohabiting in close proximity.......

That said if Merseyrail's 777s have battery capability, it could be addressed by truncating the 3rd rail to Liverpool South Parkway (Merseyrail platforms) and running on battery to / from Hunts Cross. Then the lines through Hunts Cross could be wired without the contention between systems.

 

[Energy]

At the other end of the scale, Oxenholme to Windermere ought to be a no brainer given the 4 trains per day from Manchester Airport run under the wires for the vast majority of the journey and the electrification is simply wiring a single track with no points.

Agreed

Indeed this ought to be a test location for some carbon fibre posts to minimise the insulation required using metal and reducing the expensive foundations in rocky terrain.

Im not sure carbon fibre would save much piling on Windermere. Generally you need deep piles for soft ground and more substantial piles double track cantilevers. GWEP had both and inadequate ground surveys.

Windermere would be single track cantilevers and the ground up there isn't particularly soft (happy to be corrected) so piles wouldnt be too much.

You'd want the post to be made out of a conductor (and earthed) anyway, 25kv can make its way through a very thin layer of water. While the insulators on the cantilever should prevent the water I'd still the concerned about a non metal post.

A more interesting trial would be the Mott and Moxon wood laminate (and metal post!) cantilever below as it looks nicer.... also if the UK could finally start painting OLE masts green so they are less obvious.

 

[zwk500]

A more interesting trial would be the Mott and Moxon wood laminate (and metal post!) cantilever below as it looks nicer....

Ooh that looks interesting, do you know anywhere it's proposed for use?

also if the UK could finally start painting OLE masts green so they are less obvious.

The problem with painting them green is that then people complain they stand out against the sky....

 

[Energy]

Ooh that looks interesting, do you know anywhere it's proposed for use?

Nowhere in the UK afaik, they've only unveiled a single track cantilever. Id expect Network Rail to want double track cantilevers and portals before mainline use. Windermere would be fine though.

The problem with painting them green is that then people complain they stand out against the sky....

The current grey stands out from everything

 

[NSE]

How many diesels would be displaced if electrifying Chippenham to Bristol happens?

I don’t think many (if any) would be displaced. It would just allow fully electric running for GWR IET’s. It would also be another area of XC then electrified and build their case for bi modes.

 

[Peter0124]

Felixstowe and London Gateway branches. Atleast for the traffic that runs via NLL.

 

[HSTEd]

You'd want the post to be made out of a conductor (and earthed) anyway, 25kv can make its way through a very thin layer of water. While the insulators on the cantilever should prevent the water I'd still the concerned about a non metal post.

Traditionally wooden poles have been used on the railway at voltages as high as 50kV in South Africa and North America

If a solid earthing strap is provided to the cantilever equipment then I don't think the pole itself has to be conductive.
After all, wooden poles are used for voltages as high as 132kV in grid applications.

 

[Energy]

Traditionally wooden poles have been used on the railway at voltages as high as 50kV in South Africa and North America

If a solid earthing strap is provided to the cantilever equipment then I don't think the pole itself has to be conductive.
After all, wooden poles are used for voltages as high as 132kV in grid applications.

Fair point. Though carbon fibre supports (as suggested above) would still cost a lot more and wouldn't save much piling.

 

[Sm5]

Ooh that looks interesting, do you know anywhere it's proposed for use?

The problem with painting them green is that then people complain they stand out against the sky....

Someone will come along and suggest Yellow for Health and Safety.

 

[PG]

I don’t think many (if any) would be displaced. It would just allow fully electric running for GWR IET’s. It would also be another area of XC then electrified and build their case for bi modes.

I wasn't aware that XC had any services on that stretch of line, unless diverted?