Who owns rolling stock?

[Howardh]

Mod Note: Split from this thread.

Off track, but mentioned int the table above - who do the TOC's hire/lease trains off? Is every train available to be leased actually running? What happens to the trains when a company loses it's franchise? Who maintains the trains? Who buys them in the first place? Who do they buy them off??

To me it would seem obvious - but clearly wrong - that a company bidding, and winning, a franchise should buy (even if the money to do so is loaned) the trains so they physically own them when the franchise starts. Of course, they could buy the trains second-hand off the company who's franchise runs out to save cash and have the stock in place.

But personally - and a different thread altogether, wouldn't it be simpler, and cheaper, just to have one company who knows it's franchise is endless and it can plan years in advance and borrow the money off the government? It could be called British Railways at a push.

 

[swt_passenger]

Answered in a thread less than fortnight ago:

Who pays for new trains and where do they come from?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106838

99% of stock is owned by leasing companies. You should generally assume that in the event of refranchising the stock stays the same, the existing lease has an end date and a new lease starts. There's no possibility of an outgoing TOC taking its trains away, it just won't happen.

(Please, no need to mention the FGH HST's, as they are not at all usual or typical.)

 

[Emyr]

But personally - and a different thread altogether, wouldn't it be simpler, and cheaper, just to have one company who knows it's franchise is endless and it can plan years in advance and borrow the money off the government? It could be called British Railways at a push.

Small-goverment conservatives (small c, like US TeaPartyists) will use debt-based metrics to punish a Government which encroaches on their friends' opportunities to turn the money they have into even more money.

Whatever altenatives are devised, those with an interest in the status quo will field a battalion of straw men.

 

[starrymarkb]

(Please, no need to mention the FGH HST's, as they are not at all usual or typical.)

My understanding is the DfT hit the roof when they found out that First had bought some redundant HSTs. It was made clear that other TOCs were not to pull similar stunts and trains were to be leased from the big bank owned LeaseCos

Not sure if First still own them or if they've been sold to a LeaseCo

 

[455driver]

My understanding is the DfT hit the roof when they found out that First had bought some redundant HSTs. It was made clear that other TOCs were not to pull similar stunts and trains were to be leased from the big bank owned LeaseCos

Not sure if First still own them or if they've been sold to a LeaseCo

Correct on all counts, they are still owned by First.

Apart from the West Coast farce, have First won any franchises since purchasing these HST sets?

 

[jopsuk]

Off track, but mentioned int the table above - who do the TOC's hire/lease trains off?

As part of privatisation special companies were formed referred to as ROSCOs. These obtained the BR rolling stock at knockdown prices- one of the great crimes of the process

Is every train available to be leased actually running?

Pretty much.

What happens to the trains when a company loses it's franchise?

The lease contracts typically transfer to the new operator

Who maintains the trains?

With older stock usually the TOC maintains the stock (depots transfer as part of the franchise handover) but newer stock is being procured on total service contracts. These (eg Thameslink, Crossrail and IEP as far as I know) actually mean that the owner/maintainer must have X number of trains in service each day, the actual number bought is up to them

Who buys them in the first place?

ROSCOs or special purpose financing companies

Who do they buy them off??

A number of manufacturers!

 

[talltim]

Freight operating companies are different, they tend to own older stock outright and lease newer stock from financing companies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I still want to know what would happen in the unlikely event of a ROSCO getting a better offer for a fleet and say, leased them, or even selling them abroad...

 

[Class377]

So if First were to lose the Great Western franchise (and not gain any other long-distance one), and they pulled a massive hissy fit and took away all their own HSTs, how big a mess would the next operator be in? (Assuming this was before IEP stared etc)

 

[ainsworth74]

So if First were to lose the Great Western franchise (and not gain any other long-distance one), and they pulled a massive hissy fit and took away all their own HSTs, how big a mess would the next operator be in? (Assuming this was before IEP stared etc)

Not going to be an issue IEP will be in before the FGW franchise ends after the latest extension. Otherwise it wouldn't be a huge probably as it's only a three or four sets. It would require some significant changes but it isn't timetable destroying. But I don't know why First would do this there's nowhere else they could use them so the HSTs would be sit idle earning nothing.

 

[455driver]

So if First were to lose the Great Western franchise (and not gain any other long-distance one), and they pulled a massive hissy fit and took away all their own HSTs, how big a mess would the next operator be in? (Assuming this was before IEP stared etc)

FGW have 53 HST sets to cover 50 diagrams, remove the First group ones and that would leave GW with 48 HST sets for 50 diagrams!

In time, I can see the First group ones going over to (First) Hull trains, why lease 180s when you own 5 HSTs with no work!

 

[swt_passenger]

In time, I can see the First group ones going over to (First) Hull trains, why lease 180s when you own 5 HSTs with no work!

That'll save First Group their share of the proposed electrification costs then...

 

[NSEFAN]

Rolling stock is a long-term investment, so it is not surprising that the three big ROSCOs in the UK are owned by banks.

 

[455driver]

That'll save First Group their share of the proposed electrification costs then...

Are they electrifying to Hull?

 

[MCR247]

I think it was proposed at some point, and First offered to put money towards it to bump it up the list IIRC

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Apart from the West Coast farce, have First won any franchises since purchasing these HST sets?

First Capital Connect?

 

[455driver]

First Capital Connect?

Which they have since lost!

 

[richard1976]

Answered in a thread less than fortnight ago:



99% of stock is owned by leasing companies. You should generally assume that in the event of refranchising the stock stays the same, the existing lease has an end date and a new lease starts. There's no possibility of an outgoing TOC taking its trains away, it just won't happen.

(Please, no need to mention the FGH HST's, as they are not at all usual or typical.)

Dont stagecoach own all the Class 483 outright

 

[455driver]

Dont stagecoach own all the Class 483 outright

Yes, bought for the princely sum of one English pound each!

 

[bnm]

Rolling stock is a long-term investment, so it is not surprising that the three big ROSCOs in the UK are owned by banks.

No direct bank ownership of Angel Trains. They are owned by a consortium of companies. Arcus Infrastructure Partners; AMP Capital Investors Ltd; International Public Partnerships Ltd; PSP Investments; STC Funds Nominee Pty Ltd and Prime Super Pty Ltd, advised by Access Capital Advisers.

No direct bank ownership of Porterbrook Leasing. They are owned by a consortium of companies. Antin Infrastructure Partners Ltd; OP Trust Private Markets Group; Icon Infrastructure Ltd.

No direct bank ownership of Eversholt Rail Group. They are owned by a consortium of companies. STAR Capital Partners Ltd; 3i Infrastructure PLC; Morgan Stanley Infrastructure Partners*.

*Completely separate from Morgan Stanley's banking businesses.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are they electrifying to Hull?

The only hurdle remaining was getting the DfT to sign off on funding one of the GRIP stages (three rings a bell) which has now been done. Otherwise the funding is in place and it just needs a start date. I believe the current plan would have the route completed by 2017 but that is clearly a highly ambitious timescale open to slippage. But the fact remains it is going to go ahead.

 

[WatcherZero]

They were all originally owned by banks, been shed during the banking crisis as they focused on strengthening their balance sheets, now all owned by infrastructure investment funds. Porterbook changed hands (to be finalised later this month) last week and was part owned by a subsidary of Deutsch Bank. Now owned by German insurance group Allianz, Australian asset manager Hastings, Alberta Investment Management Corporation (Canadian public sector workers pension fund) and EDF Invest of France. Valued at £2bn.

 

[swt_passenger]

Dont stagecoach own all the Class 483 outright

Yes, but in the overall scheme of things they are completely insignificant - as I tried to suggest unsuccessfully about the FGH owned HSTs.

As is often the case when someone asks a relatively straightforward question, all the answers concentrate on the exceptions...

 

[jopsuk]

The only hurdle remaining was getting the DfT to sign off on funding one of the GRIP stages (three rings a bell) which has now been done. Otherwise the funding is in place and it just needs a start date. I believe the current plan would have the route completed by 2017 but that is clearly a highly ambitious timescale open to slippage. But the fact remains it is going to go ahead.

Which presumably will leave the HT 180 fleet open to be leased by GC, should they wish to expand even further than recently announced plans.

 

[455driver]

The only hurdle remaining was getting the DfT to sign off on funding one of the GRIP stages (three rings a bell) which has now been done. Otherwise the funding is in place and it just needs a start date. I believe the current plan would have the route completed by 2017 but that is clearly a highly ambitious timescale open to slippage. But the fact remains it is going to go ahead.

Thanks for the info Ainsworth, I didnt know about the Hull bit, but then it is North of Watford!