WHR reopens to Pont Croesor

[j0hn0]

138 back in service in red
87 back in blue
new observation car

will be going on it in the next 2 weeks

follow all construction news here http://www.isengard.co.uk/#News

scroll down, there is tons to read for thos ebored at work

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Shame it won't be open all the way to Porthmadog until next year & I wish that this lot would act their age and settle their differences amicably. They really need their heads banging together.

 

[Greenback]

One of the saddest things is that the members of the two socieites work well together on the ground. Indeed, quite a few are members of both societies, as they both have diferent aims and ambitions! We were told last year whilst on a visit to the WHHR that the differences of opionion and conflict only exist at the top!

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Maybe it's just the fiery temper that the Welsh are famous for showing through.

 

[Nigel Cliff]

It really is like drawing teeth getting those last few miles to Porthmadog but t least they are heading in the right direction,hopefully once at Porth they will act their age and let the WHR1964 run heritage tarins to Beddgelert.

 

[Greenback]

On a personal note, I'm a at a bit of a loss as to how it's out of the question on safety grounds for the WHHR to operate over tracks they helped to fund and build. Or what involvement in running the service the WHHR has been offered!

 

[furryfeet]

have Daft settled up yet with the compensation bill regarding building the bypass ?

I thought that this lack of cash was the major factor in the WHR not being able to run to Portmadoc at present.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I think something to do with the road surface on Britannia Bridge is delaying things, because the H&S Taliban, are kicking up stink about cyclists getting their wheels stuck in the tramway. :roll: So they have to fill the tramway with tarmac so they don't get stuck in them.

 

[silvermachine]

On a personal note, I'm a at a bit of a loss as to how it's out of the question on safety grounds for the WHHR to operate over tracks they helped to fund and build. Or what involvement in running the service the WHHR has been offered!

I think that is at the heart of it- the whhr committed to funding and construction but delivered almost nothing -the whr/fr had to stump up the moeny and do almost all the work- allowingthe whhr to then cherry pick the most lucrative traffic which is needed to pay for the construction would be unsupportable.

In my opinion.....

 

[Mvann]

Part of the delay is to do with the highway agency needing to put traffic lights on the bridge. Also, there was probably a lot of work to do once the track had been laid, hence why the line has been opened in sections. Don't forget that this last phase was a lot longer than any of the previous phases. With reference to the 64 co, they were not allowed to work on the southern section until the whrs/fr had opened up to rhydd ddu. Also, they weren't allowed to try and get grant money from the same sources as the ffestiniog. Another problem for the 64 co is that there trains are air braked, whereas the whr/fr trains are vac braked. I believe that in the orriginal operating paper work submitted, only vac braked working was submitted. So it's probably a safety management system problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that is at the heart of it- the whhr committed to funding and construction but delivered almost nothing -the whr/fr had to stump up the moeny and do almost all the work- allowingthe whhr to then cherry pick the most lucrative traffic which is needed to pay for the construction would be unsupportable.

In my opinion.....

The 64 co would still have to pay an access charge. Also, it was the Ffestiniog that offered to allow them to run to beddgelert. The problem is that due to the gradient at that station, trains cannot terminate there.

 

[Greenback]

I think that is at the heart of it- the whhr committed to funding and construction but delivered almost nothing -the whr/fr had to stump up the moeny and do almost all the work- allowingthe whhr to then cherry pick the most lucrative traffic which is needed to pay for the construction would be unsupportable.

In my opinion.....

I don;t know enough about the detail to comment on the ins and outs, so I assume you're correct. With my limited knowledge, though, I can't see how the most lucrative traffic could be cherry picked by the WHHR. As far as I cna tell, they are only interested in running a limited service, more geared to family groups, along a short section fo the line. It's only the FWR that would run the through trains to the toruist area of Beddgelert from both directions.

To be honest, I think the full route is a bit long for a day trip from end to end and back. The best traffic will be from Caernarfon and Porthmadog into Snowdonia, with people opting to get a bus one way as it's quicker, they can then have a walk or a spot of luinch and still enjoy a ride on the steam train.

 

[Mvann]

I don;t know enough about the detail to comment on the ins and outs, so I assume you're correct. With my limited knowledge, though, I can't see how the most lucrative traffic could be cherry picked by the WHHR. As far as I cna tell, they are only interested in running a limited service, more geared to family groups, along a short section fo the line. It's only the FWR that would run the through trains to the toruist area of Beddgelert from both directions.

To be honest, I think the full route is a bit long for a day trip from end to end and back. The best traffic will be from Caernarfon and Porthmadog into Snowdonia, with people opting to get a bus one way as it's quicker, they can then have a walk or a spot of luinch and still enjoy a ride on the steam train.

Having worked near Caernarfon in the late ninties, the main traffic flows would probably be Caernarfon to rhyd ddu for the walkers and climbers plus some campsite traffic in the opposite direction, porthmadog to bedgelert for tourist traffic, with some traffic from the Forrest campsite going to town and some traffic on the bedgelert to snowdon ranger section for walkers.
It would be interesting to see what the fares are, compared to the buses, for the locals on the north Wales residents pass. When I was living there it was only 10p more expensive to go by train from waunfawr to Caernarfon.

 

[Greenback]

Having worked near Caernarfon in the late ninties, the main traffic flows would probably be Caernarfon to rhyd ddu for the walkers and climbers plus some campsite traffic in the opposite direction, porthmadog to bedgelert for tourist traffic, with some traffic from the Forrest campsite going to town and some traffic on the bedgelert to snowdon ranger section for walkers.
It would be interesting to see what the fares are, compared to the buses, for the locals on the north Wales residents pass. When I was living there it was only 10p more expensive to go by train from waunfawr to Caernarfon.

As visitors, we found the roundtrip fares from Beddgelert to Caernarfon to be expensive. Mrs Greenback also found the jounrey long (her favourite trip was the Talyllyn Victorian train because it had photo stops and a lunch stop!) and would have preferred a one way trip.

Interestingly, on the train from Beddgelert there was a large Shearings tour group, who got off at Rhyd Ddu and got back on their bus! It's a nice run from Beddgelert to Waunfawr, but a return trip is obviously too much for a lot of people!

 

[Nigel Cliff]

One of the saddest things is that the members of the two socieites work well together on the ground. Indeed, quite a few are members of both societies, as they both have diferent aims and ambitions! We were told last year whilst on a visit to the WHHR that the differences of opionion and conflict only exist at the top!

Just what I heard when I was at the WHR1964 last year

 

[Mvann]

As visitors, we founbd the roundtrip fares from Beddgelert to Caernarfon to be expensive. Mrs Greenback also found the jounrey long (her favourite trip was the Talyllyn Victorian train because it had photo stops and a lunch stop!) and would have preferred a one way trip.

Interestingly, on the train from Beddgelert there was a large Shearings tour group, who got off at Rhy Ddu and got back on their bus! It's nice run from Beddgelert to Waunfawr, but a return trip is obviously too much for a lot of people!

Alot of the coach tours were doing single journies when I worked there. On the face of it, the fare looks expensive, but it does include a free child ticket. On that basis it's probably not bad. I never really understood why they did the pricing that way.

 

[Greenback]

I didn;t notice that. It makes it a bit better I suppose, if you happen to have a child with you, which we didn't!

 

[j0hn0]

I don't mind paying really, whatever the price, but I know that they need to make it attractive to all. I can see why there is the beef with WHHR because perhaps they are thinking that if they let them run trains to Pont Croesor or Beddgelert, then they wouldn't get that revenue themselves, which negates the need for the expensive cross town link.

I refer of course to passengers arriving via the Cambrian line. The link is easy there with the WHHR and could potentially take business away from the WHR.

But in general, they need to start to get creative with the promotion. In terms of walking and getting the trains. Snowdon Mountain included. Combining walks with train rides no matter where and how you arrive in North Wales. The problem is that there are lots of seperate businesses all fighting for the same money in that area, its getting a bit underhand

 

[Mvann]

I didn;t notice that. It makes it a bit better I suppose, if you happen to have a child with you, which we didn't!

It seems there pricing strategy is aimed either at the family Market or the locals, who get 66% discount when they buy the north Wales residents card.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was actually suggested years ago that on the through trains it would make more sense to change locos and service the garretts at pen y mount rather than Boston lodge.

 

[Greenback]

I don't mind paying really, whatever the price, but I know that they need to make it attractive to all. I can see why there is the beef with WHHR because perhaps they are thinking that if they let them run trains to Pont Croesor or Beddgelert, then they wouldn't get that revenue themselves, which negates the need for the expensive cross town link.

I refer of course to passengers arriving via the Cambrian line. The link is easy there with the WHHR and could potentially take business away from the WHR.

But in general, they need to start to get creative with the promotion. In terms of walking and getting the trains. Snowdon Mountain included. Combining walks with train rides no matter where and how you arrive in North Wales. The problem is that there are lots of seperate businesses all fighting for the same money in that area, its getting a bit underhand

The fact that someone who arrives by train wll see the WHHR by the side of the tracks will probably rankle a bit at the FR! But most people will be aware of the FR, as it has had such a long history, both locally and across the country.

It seems there pricing strategy is aimed either at the family Market or the locals, who get 66% discount when they buy the north Wales residents card.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was actually suggested years ago that on the through trains it would make more sense to change locos and service the garretts at pen y mount rather than Boston lodge.

They may need to adjust that strategy to focus more on shorter journeys or one way trips. On the FR people are happy to do a halfway or full round trip, or a single journey conencting with NR at either end. The latter is out for the WHR, and the journey time is simply too long for many to take a full trip both ways.

 

[Mvann]

It would be interesting to find out how the deal with bedgelert Forrest campsite is going. If it is working well, then something simillar should be done at the snowdon parc hotel site. Also, has anything happened about the betws y garmon station yet. Originally the whr/fr wanted to put a platform in at the bryn gloch campsite, but the owner didn't want it.

 

[Chris125]

As you can imagine the situation is very complex.

Lets first deal with the reopening to Port Harbour - due to a dispute with the Trunk Roads Authority, extra embankment work and the WHHR only rebuilding half the line to Pont Croesor and not funding the bridges (or track materials?) there wasnt the money to pay for the expensive LC installations.

However, as it was decided that the NR/WHR crossing would be designed to work with ERTMS, not RETB, opening before 2011 wouldnt have been possible anyway.


Moving onto the WHHR. Simplified, they agreed in the 98 agreement to the FR using their 'heritage train' to run a shuttle service on the WHR. They would've received a fee for the stock and volunteer crew plus a percentage of traffic receipts over the section of line they built.

Their current working proposal however is quite different - they would run a shuttle from their terminus to Pont Croesor and pay the F&WHR a track access charge. There are many issues with this, but most importantly (with Pont C now having a popular RSPB centre) this would act as competition with the F&WHR services as the fares would likely undercut them. However, even if fares were agreed the signalling will not allow such a service until ETS is installed which will not happen any time soon.

I suspect any way forward will be along the lines of that originally agreed to, however when the WHHR were offered the chance to run a Bedd-Port H shuttle a few years ago they declined so progress seems unlikely - for now at least.

Chris

 

[Mvann]

As the section between the 64 co station and pont croseor doesn't cross the network rail crossing the etrm is not needed, as far as I know.

 

[Chris125]

As the section between the 64 co station and pont croseor doesn't cross the network rail crossing the etrm is not needed, as far as I know.

No, but its needed for WHR trains to run into Harbour station which is the only practical terminus for them.

Chris

 

[Mvann]

No, but its needed for WHR trains to run into Harbour station which is the only practical terminus for them.

Chris

It's not the only practical station. It's just that the management don't want to use the alternative, even on a temporary basis. As for the 64 co not being able to run to pont croseor, the main problem eventually will be pathing problems. At the moment, whr/fr only have 2 or 3 sets of coaching stock, which would mean a long wait between trains.

 

[Chris125]

It's not the only practical station. It's just that the management don't want to use the alternative, even on a temporary basis.

I think the 'alternative' isnt being cosidered is because putting the operational, legal and safety responsbility of their trains and therefore their reputation in the hands of a different railway with whom they have a long history of diagreements could be considered more than a little unwise, especially when there is no sign of a working agreement for WHHR heritage trains.

Besides, its hard to see the financial incentive of going beyond Pont Croesor without the increased shop and cafe takings of running into Harbour, and the chance to use and stable a 3rd carriage set at Boston Lodge.

Chris

 

[yorkie]

I think that is at the heart of it- the whhr committed to funding and construction but delivered almost nothing -the whr/fr had to stump up the moeny and do almost all the work- allowingthe whhr to then cherry pick the most lucrative traffic which is needed to pay for the construction would be unsupportable.

In my opinion.....

That's not an opinion, that's a version of events. And a version of events that you will either need to stand by, or retract, if lawyers got involved.

Posting something that appears as fact then adding 'in my opinion' does not make it an opinion.

In the absence of anything to the contrary, I'll take your word for it for now..

 

[Mvann]

I think the 'alternative' isnt being cosidered is because putting the operational, legal and safety responsbility of their trains and therefore their reputation in the hands of a different railway with whom they have a long history of diagreements could be considered more than a little unwise, especially when there is no sign of a working agreement for WHHR heritage trains.

Besides, its hard to see the financial incentive of going beyond Pont Croesor without the increased shop and cafe takings of running into Harbour, and the chance to use and stable a 3rd carriage set at Boston Lodge.

Chris

The alternative doesn't put the opperation into 64 co hands. Any movement on the whr has to go through control at harbour. As for the historical disagreements, that's why russel has been used on the Caernarfon section while Palmerston went to 64 co with a couple of carriages and one ore two of the 64 co locos have been used on the construction.

 

[Chris125]

The alternative doesn't put the opperation into 64 co hands.

For legal reasons im afraid it does, as the WHHR is responsible for all trains, volunteers and staff operating over their line. This is a pretty fundamental issue and probably why the FR were going to in effect pay for the use of the Heritage Train and its crew so that in case of any incidents, responsibility for safety and operation are clear.

I also cant imagine that any agreement reached between the two railways for running for into Tremadog Road wouldnt have some kind of break clause and the ability to refuse trains for operational reasons. There would always be the risk that an argument, operational reason or safety incident would prevent trains running into the WHHR's terminus, which with all the other drawbacks of paying to upgrade the WHHR station, not benefitting fully if at all from the cafe/shop sales and the need to still finish the CTRL at great expense make it undesirable.

Chris

 

[Mvann]

The only bit of the line owned by the 64 co is between pen y mount & the station opposite the main line station. The only other bit of the line they have worked so far is to about half way between there and pont croseor. Therefore legally there is no problem with running to pen y mount. Legally, the only thing stopping either company running on each others lines is that the rellevant company would need to have a pilotman on board or the footplate crew need to be signed for the road and know the relevant rule book. When russell went to dinas in 2000, the crew was a mix of both companies crews, if I remember correctly. I was on the illicit ng 15 stand. Also there are people who either do have driven on the festiniog, welsh highland and 64 co lines.
By the way, what's your connection with the Ffestiniog. I worked out of dinas shed from 1998 till 2001 when I moved jobs. I also went back a couple of times after that, but haven't been up there since 2003, but still get the odd visit from Barrie Hughes now and again as he lives in Wellingborough.

 

[Chris125]

The only bit of the line owned by the 64 co is between pen y mount & the station opposite the main line station. The only other bit of the line they have worked so far is to about half way between there and pont croseor. Therefore legally there is no problem with running to pen y mount.

There's no problem running to Pen-y-Mount if the trackbed is brought up to standard, but its hardly a suitable terminus.

Chris