Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Puffing Devil, 20 Apr 2019.

  1. bobbyrail

    bobbyrail Member

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    So, if you de fragmented the railways and nationalised them what would be the benefit? Some on here call for nationalisation and believe it to be the ultimate answer however who the f*** is paying for all this?????? The unions would chew Corbyns arse and we would either all be paying more taxes regardless of if we use the railways or not or the passengers would pay more. Now if we were all paying more taxes to reduce the cost of travel then we would be subsiding the rich in the south east (not exactly Labour stomping ground), but if we instead paid more for our tickets then rail travel would cost more. Strangely both solutions are against Labour polices and ideals but they ring out with those who support the party line of nationalising "The fragmented privatised railway", cant get my head around it personally.
     
  2. Dr Hoo

    Dr Hoo Established Member

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    With multiple cancellations in the Hope Valley again anyone unlucky enough to miss the 1914 from Sheffield will have to wait for three hours.
     
  3. option

    option Member

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    Presumably no-one works on a Sunday...
     
  4. option

    option Member

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    What if the weekend off-peak wasn't so off-peak?

    eg. I did a return journey today for £9, in the weekday peak it would be £11.50.
    If it had been £10, would there be less journeys done? Likely not.
     
  5. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    Non sequitur, de-fragmentation does not mean re-nationalisation.

    This is a debate that could take us down many diversionary routes. What is clear is that 50 years ago the terms and conditions for rail staff were significantly more coherent across the nation than they are today. The railway industry is not alone in that. Large private companies have merged and de-merged with various bodies of staff carrying with them previous terms, conditions and pension arrangements. That gives major headaches to human resource managers, operational managers and unions alike.

    It has already been pointed out that buying out employees to even up the terms can be a very expensive operation, in many cases prohibitively so. Signing up new staff on new terms makes the operation even harder to manage. Businesses with a high turnover of staff requiring relatively little training may find it easier, but even then it's potentially very divisive. It would be divisive if east side crews were brought in to cover more west side diagrams.

    Northern is a classic case where there are several groups of staff who have moved from one company to another over time. Another potential transfer might come if, say, the Liverpool - Nottingham route were split from the East Midlands franchise and given to Northern. Staff on that route might be offered a TUPE to Northern, but if they did it would add another layer of complexity to an already confusing situation.

    This is not easy to resolve, but losing 3 return services today, on a route with an hourly service at best, leads to total despair that the railway industry seriously wishes to take more than it's miniscule 2% of the travel market.

    Or maybe we should give up on these rural lines, leave them for freight only and subsidise better buses? It may well cost less.
     
    Last edited: 13 May 2019
  6. Bungle965

    Bungle965 Established Member

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    Shouldn't alternative transport have been provided after the 2 hour mark?
    Sam
     
  7. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    I see that, notwithstanding the cancellation of the 2014 service, 2S77 (2132 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly non-stop) still managed to run okay.

    Does anyone know what the purpose of this journey is? You would think that, faced with the task of getting a DMU from Sheffield to Manchester, it would either be run ECS or used to provide a 2114 all-stations service. It doesn't seem to be shown in any NT timetable, and it apparently continues unchanged on the forthcoming schedules.

    Another fact about the Hope Valley services which appears to have passed me by up to now is that, on a Sunday, there is a Sheffield start/finish. Do Sheffield-based crews have duties on the route on a Sunday? I had been of the understanding that the Hope Valley route was entirely Piccadilly-worked.
     
    Last edited: 13 May 2019
  8. Llama

    Llama Member

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    Without checking the diagams, there'll be a 'pass' or taxi move for Piccadilly crew.
     
  9. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    So Northern has greeted the first day of the new timetable with another batch of cancellations "due to a shortage of train drivers". 1306 Piccadilly to Chester and 1504 Chester to Piccadilly cancelled, leaving 4 hour gaps between trains on the Mid Cheshire. Replacement buses provided according to the website, but the westbound bus started from Stockport and the eastbound skipped Stockport, running direct from Navigation Road to Piccadilly.
     
  10. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    Two return services cancelled on Hope Valley line so far today meaning 2 hour gaps on one of the busiest leisure days in the week!
     
  11. Matt_pool

    Matt_pool Member

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    I also noticed a few cancellations today on Liverpool to Man Oxford Rd and Liverpool to Man Airport!

    For example - 1H46, the 11.16 LIV to MIA:

    "This service was cancelled throughout due to an issue with the train crew (TG)."

    1F96, the 11.51 from MIA to LIV:

    "This service was cancelled throughout due to late arrival of an inbound service"

    1H40, the 15.16 from LIV to MIA:

    "This service was cancelled throughout due to an issue with the train crew"

    2O79, the 16.46 from MCO to LIV:

    "This service was cancelled throughout due to a planning error"

    2O91, the 18.25 from LIV to MCO:

    "This service was cancelled throughout due to a planning error"

    What the hell does that even mean!?


    It's going to be a looooong Summer!!!
     
    Last edited: 19 May 2019
  12. Matt_pool

    Matt_pool Member

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    Another one, 2F10, the 17.39 from Wilmslow to LIV:

    "This service was cancelled between Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street due to a planning error (TI)."

    P.S. I start a new job a week on Tuesday and will be relying on Northern to get me to and from work on time.

    I don't want to have to start getting out of bed half an earlier in the morning than I have to (like I had to for my previous job when I relied on Northern to get me to work on time) to see if the train is delayed or cancelled, and to have to make contingency plans so I don't get fired for being late!
     
    Last edited: 19 May 2019
  13. Aivilo

    Aivilo Member

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    Always get the train before the one you need to get
     
  14. Dr Hoo

    Dr Hoo Established Member

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    Quite! In a new job it is what "having to" is all about. (Same would apply if using bike, bus, car. Things can always go wrong.) Time for a cuppa or whatever takes your fancy if you arrive 'early'.
    (That is far enough 'off thread'. Best wishes for your new job, by the way.)
     
  15. underbank

    underbank Member

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    Which is a sad indictment of the state of our railways. What is the point of the "need for speed" where everything is about making journey times faster, if you have to allow for a cancellation or delay which of course means the speed isn't relevant? Surely it would be better to have a secure but slower railway system that people could trust and rely on?
     
  16. Aivilo

    Aivilo Member

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    It's just a good practice. You can never be early, you can however be late.
     
  17. Matt_pool

    Matt_pool Member

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    Well if I get the earlier train I will get into work an hour early, and doing set hours I can't start until 9am, so I will be sat about twiddling my thumbs!

    What happened to the good old days when you could rely on your train to be on time (and not cancelled) and to be able to walk into the office 10 minutes before your shift, hang up your coat, make a cup of coffee, and be sat at your desk bang on 9am!

    The only time that used to happen for me is 15 years ago when I lived a 10 minute walk from my office and didn't have to rely on Northern for screwing up my day! :rolleyes:o_O
     
  18. baz962

    baz962 Established Member

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    Even if all toc's had all their duck's in a row , you can get a breakdown/fault . Driver could be sick last minute , trespassers etc . I always get an earlier train , even if all trains are on time .
     
  19. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    1906 Piccadilly to Chester and 2059 Chester to Piccadilly now also cancelled at short notice. The latter is the last eastbound train of the day, yet no information on the website about replacement transport.
     
  20. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    "Cancelled due to a planning error (TI)".
     
  21. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    The new Northern leaflets show only an hourly Liverpool - Blackpool service on Sundays (no Wigan turnbacks) and an hourly Manchester Vic - Southport via Atherton (no Wigan turnbacks). The recent "Today's Railways UK" article says the missing trains are cancelled "until September". Anyone know what's happening in September to make any difference? Of course, these won't be shown on stations , RTT etc. as "cancelled", creating a false impression of Northern's performance.
     
  22. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    The Liverpool to Wigan NW and Victoria to Wallgate Sunday services are in the Working Timetable as starting from 15 September (see RTT). If that does not happen, they will be shown as cancelled.
     
  23. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    What is this supposed to mean?

    How can I do that if any of the following apply:
    • I am getting the first train of the day
    • I am getting the first 'off peak' train for the ticket held
    • I am arriving by bus and it is the first available bus connection
    • I am going after work and I cannot leave work any earlier
    • I am taking multiple trains but the reservations are all 'mandatory'
    I guess you work for Northern (or another train company), and are not seeing this from a passengers perspective.
     
  24. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    No trains have run today on the following routes.
    Manchester Piccadilly - Stoke
    Manchester Victoria - Clitheroe
    Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North
    Wigan North Western - Stalybridge
     
  25. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    They are supposed to have run from May 2018 but were regularly cancelled. Now their cancellation has been made semi-permanent. Who's to say they won't have disappeared altogether by December? Meanwhile several routes in Yorkshire have got improved Sunday services from today (Leeds to Doncaster, Selby and Sheffield via Moorthorpe).
     
  26. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    That's because AFAIK Yorkshire depots have different T&Cs with Sunday part of the regular working week. That is not the case at NW Depots. Legacy of Northern Spirit and First North Western that wasn't rectified when the franchises were remapped into Northern and TPE?
     
  27. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    Yes. My point is, does anyone know what action Northern is taking to rectify the situation in the North-West? Comments from other posts suggests "not much as they don't want to spend money on recruiting staff".
     
  28. Dr Hoo

    Dr Hoo Established Member

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    (I know you were replying to someone else's post but will comment anyway.) I am now retired but in my last job I had the pleasure of paying over £6,000 per year for my season ticket which was at least flexible. Fortunately my attendance at work wasn't time critical every day but if there was a particular meeting at 0900 (which there often was) it was very much a case of 'a train in hand'. I usually cycled to the station (to avoid the bus) but that also allowed time for walking if the bike was defective. We had trains from 05XX so there was no real 'first train' problem.
    This sort of thing is all part of the equation of working out where to live in relation to work. My dad always drummed into me about (a) never getting a second chance to create a good first impression and (b) catch the train before. Having worked shifts and needing to relieve colleagues promptly helps to instill a particular mindset too.
     
  29. Aivilo

    Aivilo Member

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    Obviously there are exceptions. This is based on what I do and have done all my working life. If it takes 30 minutes to get somewhere give myself an hour. Like I say you can never be to early
     
  30. jamesst

    jamesst Member

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    I'm with you on this one. Whether I should have to or not I try not to do anything last minute. If I'm driving to work I'll leave earlier than I have to go account for traffic conditions. If I get the bus I'll try and get an earlier one, I just see it as common sense.
    And no I don't work for Northern!
     

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