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Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

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yorkie

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... so where are the similar reports for HS2 or all the other things that people need to be informed about?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wa...infrastructure-report-welcomed-by-uk-minister
A report calling for more investment in rail infrastructure in north Wales to harness the economic benefits of HS2 has been welcomed by a UK government minister.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16473296
The government argues that Britain's rail network is reaching capacity, while infrastructure owner Network Rail says the southern section of the West Coast Main Line - currently the quickest rail route between London and Birmingham - will be "effectively full" by 2024.

Ministers claim the London-West Midlands section alone will create around 40,000 jobs.

Groups such as the Campaign for High Speed Rail say there will be added knock-on benefits, while some MPs believe it could be a catalyst for economic growth and help rebalance the economy between the North and South.
I'm not sure why you bring up those other subjects; it's also a strange and curious mismatched list, is that a list of topics you deem unworthy of attention? If there is demand for news on particular subjects, and news is being generated, I don't see how anyone can expect the media to refuse to report it.
 
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The Planner

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It seems that Coventry will get a poorer service after HS2. There's talk of adding more local services that stop at halts like Marston Green and Lea Hall with less expresses. I avoid 350s and Cross Country like the plague. Trains like the 16:50 from New St are full now, even in 1st class to Coventry.
So the people at the local stations are not allowed an improved service so you can keep your fast service to Coventry?
 

si404

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There's talk of adding more local services that stop at halts like Marston Green and Lea Hall with less expresses. I avoid 350s and Cross Country like the plague. Trains like the 16:50 from New St are full now, even in 1st class to Coventry.
West Midlands and Chilterns Route Study Figure 5:13 (Potential post HS2 service structure on the Coventry corridor) - which is, of course, not something set in stone - does indeed have more local services at Marston Green and Lea Hall. But all of them terminate at Birmingham International, allowing the 8tph to Coventry (an small increase vs now) to run non-stop from the Airport to New Street.

There would be the same number of expresses from Coventry to Birmingham as now (4tph), just with a different balance and while you don't like Cross Country, that TOC will be refranchised at some point and the replacement might be tolerable. Likewise the 350s might be cascaded and replaced on the overcrowded Intercity XC routes in before 2026.
 

kylemore

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So if we make the city centre stations drab, cheap and functional, will you be in favour of the project?
When the French built the TGV Su-Est they built it between the suburbs of Paris and Lyon using existing city centre stations and approaches - something along these lines particularly if it avoided a controversial alignment might have garnered more support, coupled with incremental improvements to the aforesaid existing urban approaches and underused assets such as the Chiltern line. Another useful model is the Koeln-Frankfurt NBS again using existing urban infrastructure.
 

6Gman

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Of course there are questions about the project. There will always be questions about any project. I can think of several aspects of the design of HS2 that make me a little uneasy (though not enough to outweigh the likely benefits). But it's possible to object to something by engaging in rational debate and considering the points that people on the other side present - and also by giving suitable weight to the opinions of those with professional knowledge in the field. The impression I have from this thread and other discussions is that too many of the people opposing HS2 are not doing that. Too many of the anti-HS2 arguments are based on repeating stuff that is either absurd, speculative, or demonstrably untrue, and continuing to repeat that stuff even after being corrected. PR1Berske in particular seems to have a strong record on this thread of ignoring evidence and repeatedly making ludicrous claims. That's not a reasonable way of arguing, and to my mind, in that context, squizzler's remarks that you were replying to seem to me perfectly reasonable.

I posted a list of my concerns about HS2 on one of these threads (I was originally anti-HS2#, but now support it - reluctantly - because the alternatives are worse) and the follow-up was a sensible discussion. The problem with some of the anti-HS2 campaigners, here and elsewhere, is that their arguments are simply nonsense, irrelevant or deliberately misleading.

For example:
"HS2 isn't needed because the WCML isn't full. And if it is full it's because the railway planners are idiots and incompetent" - nonsense
"Pacers!" - irrelevant
"It'll cost {insert exaggerated figure, £100bn is currently popular} and it'll only run between London and Birmingham" - deliberately misleading. Don't pick a maxed-out figure from the ether and then apply it to only part of the scheme.

# By anti-HS2 I mean the current scheme. I support the principle.
 

The Ham

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I'll ask my questions again, as they appear to have been missed in my above post:

Has passenger growth been higher or lower than predicted?


If higher what's the option to facilitate for this growth if not HS2?


Maybe HSUK? Only that uses that week known under used line for getting out of London the MML.

Anyone that's opposed to HS2 who can provide an answer to those questions I'll be willing to hear what they have to say, but if they remain unanswered most other points about HS2 being cancelled are of little interest and are likely to be just repeating the she things which have been said before.

I'll ask my questions yet again, as they appear to have been missed in my above post (and the one before that):

Has passenger growth been higher or lower than predicted?


If higher what's the option to facilitate for this growth if not HS2?


Maybe HSUK? Only that uses that week known under used line for getting out of London the MML.

Anyone that's opposed to HS2 who can provide an answer to those questions I'll be willing to hear what they have to say, but if they remain unanswered most other points about HS2 being cancelled are of little interest and are likely to be just repeating the same things which have been said before.

For clarification a viable alternative needs to provide at least a 50% increase in capacity (which is just replacing an 11 coach 390 with a new full length HS2 train).

However that would still fall short of HS2 as a whole, but that's another matter.
 

6Gman

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When the French built the TGV Su-Est they built it between the suburbs of Paris and Lyon using existing city centre stations and approaches - something along these lines particularly if it avoided a controversial alignment might have garnered more support, coupled with incremental improvements to the aforesaid existing urban approaches and underused assets such as the Chiltern line. Another useful model is the Koeln-Frankfurt NBS again using existing urban infrastructure.

Which part of the Chiltern line do you consider "underused"?
 

tbtc

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Why not just come out and call them HS2 DENIERS?:)

There are to say the the least huge questions over this project - the sheer grandiosity of the new city centre developments seem to have more to do with enriching developers rather than economically providing extra capacity is one of them.

That sounds like a valid complaint to make - I can see your argument - I'd rather argue about such things than the fact that the timetable at Oxenholme isn't yet set in stone for the 2030s (despite timetables at many stations not yet being set in stone for a couple of months time!).

I suppose part of the idea is that they can't easily accommodate four hundred metre trains within existing stations (even if the platforms could take such lengths, there's going to be reliability problems trying to path eighteen high speed services per hour on the Euston corridor when they are at the mercy of congestion within the current lines at New Street/ Piccadilly/ Leeds etc - having segregated/separate stations makes some sense.

I'd like everything to be all in one place but realistically most big stations are already pretty busy so it'd be hard to find platform space for the HS2 services at them, without taking future growth in the 2020s/2030s into account. Eurostar wouldn't be as reliable if it was reliant on "metro" services clearing junctions around London Bridge etc.

Plus, if you build the HS2 platforms within the existing stations (or directly underneath, as I've seen suggested) you could face long disruption to existing passengers - we'd have people complaining along the lines of "why should my regular commute from Longbridge into New Street be disrupted for months at a time so they can build these HS2 sections, for the sake of rich businessmen etc etc").

And also the "sorry, but there's no space to increase services from Longbridge because all the spare capacity at New Street was taken up by the 400m platform for HS2 services, so any improvement to local services is hamstrung by the decision to try to accommodate HS2 services within the existing station". Maybe, if we were building HS2 in the 1970s/1980s and had plenty of space and spare capacity at New Street/ Piccadilly/ Leeds etc then we'd have found room for the High Speed services within the existing station footprint but things are busier now - it's enough of a struggle to cope with current service levels - e.g. look at the money they are spending at Leeds to remove a car park to put one extra platform on the "Harrogate" side of the station.

So, if you are going to have HS2 platforms separate to the existing platforms then why not spend a few quid more on creating "destinations", some civic pride in a new hub for the city that could attract new development - some businesses etc will want to have their premises near an HS2 station who might not feel much prestige being located next to a station occupied by Sprinters chugging away.

Brunel and the likes didn't build austere stations with a couple of bus shelters and little else - they built grand stations - cathedrals - Victorian stations were over-engineered partly because they were landmarks, they were sources of civic pride. Do we have to restrict station design to something as dull and functional as the British Rail WCML of the 1960s? The vast majority of the money will be spent on the hundreds of miles of track, signals, trains, bridges, tunnels etc - spending twice as much on a "nice" station rather than a "Tesco Value" station isn't a huge amount more - we always complain on here about how basic a lot of modern stations are, how they don't capture the imagination like a Paddington or a York does... I'm comfortable with spending a few quid more on having "flagship" stations.

Or, to look at things from the other perspective, look at the problems we are going to have at Sheffield Midland in accommodating HS2 services within the existing station - there are no spare platforms as it is before we give up the longest one to dedicate to HS2 - we are going to have potential for HS2 services being delayed and missing their slot further down the line because they clashed with a 150 on the Hope Valley stopper (or whatever replaces 150s in another decade or so) - Sheffield is going to struggle to cope with HS2 because we are trying to keep everything within the current station - in comparison, places like New Street/ Piccadilly/ Leeds will have some local capacity on current lines freed up by removing some (not all, but some) of the fastest services from the equation - e.g. the scope for more "local" stops to be accommodated on the Coventry corridor.

It seems that Coventry will get a poorer service after HS2. There's talk of adding more local services that stop at halts like Marston Green and Lea Hall with less expresses

You can call Marston Green a "halt" if you want, but that's a work I'd associate with quaint backwater stations on a GWR branch line (the kind that feature in thousands of model railways).

To me it looks like a suburban station with roughly 800,000 passengers per annum that cannot currently have more services stopping there because of the number of non-stop services zooming through - once some of those non-stop services are replaced (by services on HS2) then there's room for more services to stop at places like Marston Green - a station which would probably have many more services stopping there if it weren't on a two track line with 390s passing at high speed.

Same goes for Lea Hall, albeit with around 600,000 passengers per annum - not tiny numbers - but hamstrung by being on a line where there's no capacity for more local trains (because anything stopping there would soon have a 390 breathing down its neck.

These are stations that should benefit from HS2 though.
 

anme

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When the French built the TGV Su-Est they built it between the suburbs of Paris and Lyon using existing city centre stations and approaches - something along these lines particularly if it avoided a controversial alignment might have garnered more support, coupled with incremental improvements to the aforesaid existing urban approaches and underused assets such as the Chiltern line. Another useful model is the Koeln-Frankfurt NBS again using existing urban infrastructure.

The existing urban approaches to London and Birmingham are full, and the Chiltern line is hardly underused.
 

si404

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If we build a high speed railway from Cheddington to Canley (say), and avoided the Chilterns and urban area issues and instead bypassing a 125mph bit of track that doesn't have as many capacity problems, it would totally miss the point of why we're building HS2.
 

kylemore

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Which part of the Chiltern line do you consider "underused"?
As it stands probably you are right, however could it be tweaked (I mean tweaked compared to HS2 ie. electrified with speed upgrades where economical) to a railway capable of hosting say 5x12 car trains per hour to the west midlands?
 

anme

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As it stands probably you are right, however could it be tweaked (I mean tweaked compared to HS2 ie. electrified with speed upgrades where economical) to a railway capable of hosting say 5x12 car trains per hour to the west midlands?

Remind me what problem are we trying to solve?
 

ABB125

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On an online railway news website, the following comment has been posted:
If HS2 was to alleviate capacity problems, it would have been 4 track from London to Birmingham with all trains entering cities on existing classic lines, as happens in Berlin and Paris. It is not of course, being 2 track all the way with expensive tunnels and land CPOs into city centre stations. It was designed for speed and speed only to service only four cities. No one is fooled.
Well, as alluded to above, the existing approaches to cities are already full. New lines will at some point need to be built in the future. Therefore, if you build new approaches that remove all the fast services from the older lines, there are a few benefits:
  • Much quicker entry to the city centre
  • Less likelihood of disruption on the new approach, due to one type of train and service pattern
  • Released capacity on the existing approach(es) for enhanced/more reliable local services
  • Released capacity in existing city centre stations
Overall, the result is much better services for everyone. What's not to like?

According to the same person, phase 2B has "zero value", and speeds to Manchester from Crewe would be not much slower using the existing line.
However, the same argument as I have stated above applies to Manchester.
Apparently, updated classic lines can give Birmingham-Nottingham and Sheffield-Leeds journey times of less than 30 minutes, at a much lower cost. I, for one, don't believe that. Isn't much of the Birmingham-Derby line 125mph anyway?
 

6Gman

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As it stands probably you are right, however could it be tweaked (I mean tweaked compared to HS2 ie. electrified with speed upgrades where economical) to a railway capable of hosting say 5x12 car trains per hour to the west midlands?

1. How would these be accommodated at Marylebone. (Only 6 platforms, awkward layout, double track tunnel within a quarter mile of the throat)
2. Five (presumably fast) trains through High Wycombe and P Risborough mixed with stoppers and Oxford trains ... can't see that working
3. From Aynho Junction you're fitting these 5 with 2 XC Voyagers and a significant freight flow from Southampton
4. And then we pick up the locals from Leamington and the like.
5. How does this help Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield or Leeds?
 

ABB125

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Here is a Stop HS2 article from 11th Feb:
Stop HS2 said:
HS2 is like Building a Waitrose on Rails, Whilst Commuters Queue in Aldi.


The Stop HS2 campaign has responded to the current speculation over the future of the HS2 rail project, by labelling it as a ‘Waitrose on Rails’. Commenting on the speculation that HS2 might still be cancelled, Stop HS2 campaign manager Joe Rukin said:

“Currently, there are commuters in constant crush-hour conditions across the rail network, but instead of addressing those problems, out of touch politicians are promising to deliver HS2 for the business elite. Promising HS2 at this time is like building a Waitrose on rails that is of no use to the vast majority of commuters who are stood queuing in Aldi, all with the forlorn hope that someone will open another till.”

“When 72% of people say they want the HS2 money spent on the rest of the network, only 12% think it is value for money and 7% say they will never benefit from HS2, this only goes to prove that building HS2 is giving the country a Waitrose on rails, when the majority of people are queuing in Aldi.”

Speaking afterwards, Rukin added:

“Whilst about £4-5bn has been wasted so far on HS2 over ten years, we are now at the sharp end, and Government will soon have to decide whether or not to commit to spending around that amount every year for about 20 years on building HS2. That is a decision to give HS2 pretty much the entire rail infrastructure budget and accept that nothing else besides maintenance could be afforded for two decades, condemning commuters elsewhere to a cycle of continual crush-hour conditions.”

“It has been absolutely clear that HS2 has been out of control for a very long time, but instead of exercising scrutiny and control, we have seen the farcical spectacle of Government spending taxpayers money to lobby itself, to con people into supporting this Waitrose on rails.”

A ComRes poll commissioned to go alongside the Channel 4 Dispatches investigation “HS2: The Great Train Robbery”, has confirmed that there is little public support for HS2, with only 12% of respondents thinking HS2 is value for money and 72% of over 2000 respondent s believing the money would be better spent on the rest of the rail network.

With it being reported that the cabinet is divided over whether or not HS2 should go ahead, just 20% of respondents said that it should not be scrapped, and 7% of people were of the opinion that HS2 would ever benefit them in any way.

This is just the latest poll in which the public have shown a significant thumbs down to the project, and comes at a time when HS2 is more likely of being cancelled than it ever has been.

Penny Gaines, chair of Stop HS2 added:

“The next few months are crunch time for HS2. Yes, the Government has spent a lot of money already, but this is nothing compared to the ongoing spending that will be required for building HS2. As this poll shows, the general public aren’t impressed by the justifications made for HS2, and think the money would be better spent on other railways, such as Northern Powerhouse Rail or commuter trains.”

“Given the huge budget for HS2 which far exceeds any other government project, and the doubts about the whole project, it is time to scrap HS2 in its entirety.”
First of all, see the bits that I have emboldened; I think someone needs to proof-read the article! Personally I can't decide what these contradictory statements actually mean (or their significance): is it
  • 7% will NEVER benefit from HS2 (this seems quite a low figure for a national project - in other words 93% WILL benefit)?
  • ONLY 7% WILL benefit from HS2 (given this is Stop HS2, this seems more likely)?
  • Something else entirely?
Now, let's look at each bit in detail:
The Stop HS2 campaign has responded to the current speculation over the future of the HS2 rail project, by labelling it as a ‘Waitrose on Rails’. Commenting on the speculation that HS2 might still be cancelled, Stop HS2 campaign manager Joe Rukin said:

“Currently, there are commuters in constant crush-hour conditions across the rail network, but instead of addressing those problems, out of touch politicians are promising to deliver HS2 for the business elite. Promising HS2 at this time is like building a Waitrose on rails that is of no use to the vast majority of commuters who are stood queuing in Aldi, all with the forlorn hope that someone will open another till.”

“When 72% of people say they want the HS2 money spent on the rest of the network, only 12% think it is value for money and 7% say they will never benefit from HS2, this only goes to prove that building HS2 is giving the country a Waitrose on rails, when the majority of people are queuing in Aldi.”
HS2 releases capacity on the existing lines, allowing more frequent commuter services on the south WCML, and additional stops in the residual WCML fast services, benefitting currently overlooked locations such as the Trent Valley, Rugby, Milton Keynes etc. On the ECML, it is a similar story. One or two more stops added to the long distance services, leaving more space on the commuter services for passengers from intermediate, non-long-distance stations. So HS2 does address the "crush-hour conditions" on many lines. It doesn't, however, help "the vast majority of commuters" who are south of the Thames. Why not? Because it isn't designed to. That's what Crossrail 2 and other such schemes are for.
Surprise, surprise, HS2 will only be used by the "business elite" (whoever they are), presumably because of the fares, which are "guaranteed" (not a quote from the article) to be extortionately priced. So what will HS2 do to fill all the empty seats? Perhaps they will offer lower fares?
As for the comparison between Waitrose and Aldi, I have two things to say:
  • Wasn't a TOC forced to apologise in the not-too-distant past for implying that Poundland own-brand wasn't very good? Will Stop HS2 have to do the same?
  • According to the "German Supermarkets" thread in the General Discussion section, Aldi is very good at opening extra checkouts if needed.
Speaking afterwards, Rukin added:

“Whilst about £4-5bn has been wasted so far on HS2 over ten years, we are now at the sharp end, and Government will soon have to decide whether or not to commit to spending around that amount every year for about 20 years on building HS2. That is a decision to give HS2 pretty much the entire rail infrastructure budget and accept that nothing else besides maintenance could be afforded for two decades, condemning commuters elsewhere to a cycle of continual crush-hour conditions.”
  1. HS2 is going to take about 14 years from now until full opening
  2. No, it's not a decision to give HS2 the entire Network Rail budget, it's entirely separate, additional funding that the rail industry is lucky to be offered
  3. Nothing else besides maintenance, enhancements and renewals for the next decade and a half, I think is what they meant to write
  4. The "cycle of continual crush-hour conditions" will be broken by HS2, and all the other investment planned, such as new trains in the North (although there really need to be longer trains in the North too - unlike the WCML, the counter-argument to "we are at capacity" so beloved of those against HS2 actually applies to services in the North - all those two/three-coach trains running through services from Middle o' Nowhere to Much Emptiness)
A ComRes poll commissioned to go alongside the Channel 4 Dispatches investigation “HS2: The Great Train Robbery”, has confirmed that there is little public support for HS2, with only 12% of respondents thinking HS2 is value for money and 72% of over 2000 respondent s believing the money would be better spent on the rest of the rail network.

With it being reported that the cabinet is divided over whether or not HS2 should go ahead, just 20% of respondents said that it should not be scrapped, and 7% of people were of the opinion that HS2 would ever benefit them in any way.

This is just the latest poll in which the public have shown a significant thumbs down to the project, and comes at a time when HS2 is more likely of being cancelled than it ever has been.
Do these poll respondents realise that the money is available for HS2, or not at all (for anything - not rail, not the NHS, not schools...)?
Penny Gaines, chair of Stop HS2 added:

“The next few months are crunch time for HS2. Yes, the Government has spent a lot of money already, but this is nothing compared to the ongoing spending that will be required for building HS2. As this poll shows, the general public aren’t impressed by the justifications made for HS2, and think the money would be better spent on other railways, such as Northern Powerhouse Rail or commuter trains.”

“Given the huge budget for HS2 which far exceeds any other government project, and the doubts about the whole project, it is time to scrap HS2 in its entirety.”
How can NPR be acceptable but not HS2? I mean, everyone knows that NPR only exists so that the "business elite" of Manchester can get to Leeds 10 minutes quicker. Obviously, it won't release any capacity on the existing lines, whose services will be slowed down anyway to "encourage" people to use NPR, which will undoubtedly have rip-off fares. Oh, it also only has one intermediate station near Bradford, so the 6 residents of Little Notmuch won't benefit.
 

squizzler

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Quote attributed to StopHS2:
no use to the vast majority of commuters who are stood queuing in Aldi, all with the forlorn hope that someone will open another till

Ah yes, blame the Germans, always a surefire technique for rabble rousing. A thinly veiled dig at Arriva's Northern service perhaps? The well healed Nimby's on the Chilterns actually get a good service from them.
 

PR1Berske

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Ah yes, blame the Germans, always a surefire technique for rabble rousing. A thinly veiled dig at Arriva's Northern service perhaps? The well healed Nimby's on the Chilterns actually get a good service from them.
It truly isn't a dig at the Germans.

Why should the North put up with a reduced service while the South gets HS2 right to its door, that's all that blog is asking.

We know from this forum that nobody can guarantee that the North won't lose services as a direct result of hs2. That's the crux. The South gets a Waitrose version of the railways. We get Heron Foods.
 

EM2

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We know from this forum that nobody can guarantee that the North won't lose services as a direct result of hs2. That's the crux.
If, as many anti-HS2ers insist, the new line is for the benefit of the South, why do they insist on direct services to London? Trains generally run in two directions.
If there is a need to change onto HS2 to get to London, and this saves minimal time, or even no time at all, how are those areas worse off?
 

Ianno87

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We know from this forum that nobody can guarantee that the North won't lose services as a direct result of hs2. That's the crux. The South gets a Waitrose version of the railways. We get Heron Foods.

Let's spin the question around. HS2 adds a whole new main line route to the UK rail network from (eventually) London & Birmingham to Wigan, Manchester, Chesterfield, Leeds and York (lets assume that the Phase 2A and 2B bills recieve royal assent in due course). No rail network capacity is taken away anywhere. So why would anywhere in the north *have* to lose services if HS2 is a net addition to rail network capacity and capability?
 

anme

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It truly isn't a dig at the Germans.

Why should the North put up with a reduced service while the South gets HS2 right to its door, that's all that blog is asking.

We know from this forum that nobody can guarantee that the North won't lose services as a direct result of hs2. That's the crux. The South gets a Waitrose version of the railways. We get Heron Foods.

How could that be guaranteed? It would be good to understand you have in mind.
 

6Gman

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It truly isn't a dig at the Germans.

Why should the North put up with a reduced service while the South gets HS2 right to its door, that's all that blog is asking.

We know from this forum that nobody can guarantee that the North won't lose services as a direct result of hs2. That's the crux. The South gets a Waitrose version of the railways. We get Heron Foods.

Some places in the North may get a reduced service. Some places in the Midlands may also get a reduced service. As may some places in the South.

And many places in all three will get an enhanced service.
 

pt_mad

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On Question Time now they are discussing HS2 but it seems that the audience and then panel don't seem to know much about trains.
Was just going to mention that BBC Question Time from Aylesbury last night had HS2 as the first topic. The local audience were very much against the plans. In fact, when the presenter asked for a show of hands from anyone who supported the project, only one person put their hand up and was booed when they spoke up for the project.

The panel pretty much failed to make the case for the project imo. Apart from one member who was for it on infrastructure investment grounds. Nobody said the WCML is nearly full with little spare paths for the future. Or that it would be unrealistic, expensive and more disruptive to 6 track the WCML or to resignal it again to bring frequency down by one minute to a train every 2 minutes.

Instead debate seemed to be more focused towards the train not stopping in between the large cities or at Aylesbury. Or that it wasn't worth all the cost just to speedup journey times by 20 mins. Nobody at all mentioned capacity.

One person who spoke claimed that the station in Birmingham wasn't actually going to be in Birmingham and that passengers would need to catch another train to get to the HS2 station .Which the audience looked like they believed. Nobody mentioned that digging has already started either?
 
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tbtc

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Why should the North put up with a reduced service while the South gets HS2 right to its door

Please tell me how "the South" (the entire South!) gets an HS2 station at its door (when there are only two stations in the entire "south" - Euston and Old Oak Common) whilst 'the North" doesn't (despite HS2 stopping in Leeds/ Sheffield/ Manchester/ Liverpool etc?

Maybe more people live within walking distance of Euston than I imagined?

We know from this forum that nobody can guarantee that the North won't lose services as a direct result of hs2

We. Can't. Guarantee. Which. Lines. Will. Loose. Services. In. May. 2019.

And it's currently February 2019.

And you're still moaning about the fact that we can't guarantee the number of stops that each station will have/ gain/lose in the mid 2030s?

Do you not see a slight flaw in your complaint here?

If, as many anti-HS2ers inist, the new line is for the benefit of the South, why do they insist on direct services to London? Trains generally run in two directions.
If there is a need to change onto HS2 to get to London, and this saves minimal time, or even no time at all, how are those areas worse off?

Good point.

People on here state that a service from a smaller town to a bigger city benefits the smaller town (e.g. Galashiels benefits from its railway to Edinburgh just as, say, Tavistock would benefit from a railway to Plymouth or Colne from a railway to Leeds).

People on here state that a service from a medium sized place to London will benefit the medium sized place (e.g. Huddersfield should have a through train to London, we shouldn't be talking about reducing the existing London service from other provincial places).

But when the planned service is a *High Speed* service, all of this logic is turned upside down. Whilst Colne is big enough to avoid becoming a dormitory town of Leeds, apparently we are meant to believe that having slightly faster services to London would make Birmingham/ Leeds etc dormitory towns for London, all life would be sucked out of places like Birmingham).

Normally I try to understand the opposite viewpoint but I'm struggling with the idea that having a fast train from Sheffield to London will benefit the people of London but won't benefit the people of Sheffield...

I could understand the idea that HS2 benefitted "the south" if all services from Leeds/ Sheffield/ Manchester/ Birmingham were being slowed down to stop at several stations in Buckinghamshire. But HS2 is providing these northern (and midland) cities with a faster service to London, so how is this benefiting the south and not the north?

If HS2 was benefitting the south then why are they building it to Manchester etc? If the idea was to benefit the south then wouldn't they be building it from London to somewhere like Brighton?
 

pt_mad

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For me, it's as simple as, many well developed countries now have a proper high speed line or network as part of their infrastructure. We do not. Things move on including technology and it's not something we necessarily all like but they do.
If this country, i.e. the UK is going to even try to keep up and people are expecting to have a modern high speed service in 30 years time which reflects that in other developed countries, then we need to build it now. Fair enough the costs are sky high, bit shelve it and return to it in 15 20 years and the cost will probably triple. If the Victorians hadn't build where would we be? I bet there was resistance to the West Coast Mainline back in the 1800s. Imagine if it wasn't there.

Infrastructure projects used to be seen as very positive. They are supposed to encourage prosperity, improve mobility within places and create jobs. Where and when this changed I'm not sure. When they built the M1 there were many people who were actually excited for it to open so they could visit goodness knows where without taking all day. Same with the M62.

They built the A1M Scotch Corner bypass a few years ago and you can't just leave things be for decades and decades.

Sooner or later we'd need either more tracks on the WCML, 20 car Pendolinos and longer platforms, or a new line, which actually has the capability to go the speeds over 125 in a place as well thought of in the world as the UK.
 

Meerkat

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If not HS2 then what?
Improvements we can afford. Do much less is the normal response in life when we find out our ideal solution is hugely expensive with an unconstrained budget heading toward monstrously expensive.
Those improvements might be disruptive , but that doesn’t normally bother people advocating rail capital projects. And smaller projects do not go tens of billions over budget. When budgets get this big absolute values start to matter more than percentages

Also no one is asking the question whether we should satisfy the increases in travel demand (particularly when taxpayers are paying). Does that extra travel improve the economy enough to justify the spending and considerable environmental damage?
 

si404

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They built the A1M Scotch Corner bypass a few years ago
That scheme was pronounced opened just shy a year ago (late Feb '18), though I'd imagine the main route at Scotch Corner was finished some time before that (being merely an online upgrade) - the bulk of works were the realignment at Catterick. Though, IIRC, the local access road either side of Scotch Corner was one of the last bits to be done.
 

6Gman

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If not HS2 then what?
Improvements we can afford. Do much less is the normal response in life when we find out our ideal solution is hugely expensive with an unconstrained budget heading toward monstrously expensive.
Those improvements might be disruptive , but that doesn’t normally bother people advocating rail capital projects. And smaller projects do not go tens of billions over budget. When budgets get this big absolute values start to matter more than percentages

Also no one is asking the question whether we should satisfy the increases in travel demand (particularly when taxpayers are paying). Does that extra travel improve the economy enough to justify the spending and considerable environmental damage?

Well, small schemes can't go billions over budget because they don't cost billions. And percentages do matter, because they're proportional.

So ...

If we accept the (dubious) claim of £100bn for HS2 then that's about 80% over budget.

The Walsall - Rugeley electrification (does that count as a smaller project?) was supposed to cost £36 million; now said to have cost over £100 million - nearly 200% over budget. (And 18 months late)
 
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