Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[Tetchytyke]

Which would render it pointless; people would just use classic line services to Euston instead.

Would they? The City and Canary Wharf will be much easier to get to from OOC on Crossrail than from Euston.

 

[bastien]

Would they? The City and Canary Wharf will be much easier to get to from OOC on Crossrail than from Euston.

It's all a bit moot now, businesses in The City and Canary Wharf are packing up and moving to Dublin.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nope, all the paths stay on 16 platforms.

I'm impressed if so, as the talk at one point was to shut half the station for the building work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would they? The City and Canary Wharf will be much easier to get to from OOC on Crossrail than from Euston.

Not everybody is going to either of those. And the scrum aside (which many commuters avoid either using RTT or just knowing the platforms which are very consistent) boarding at a terminus is much more civilized than a through station.

 

[DarloRich]

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....d-faster-journeys-on-the-cumbrian-coast-line# says it's part of "the Great North Rail Project" and "By 2022 the Great North Rail Project (GNRP), part of Britain's Railway Upgrade Plan, will have delivered a multi-billion pound package of improvements for customers across the north of England."
I was just pointing out that bringing the track back up to 1930s standards hardly counts as an enhancement, an upgrade or an investment. Someone else has said here that most work across the Northwest is being badged as part of this, even if it's really just maintenance.

Maintenance is the preservation of the current asset. Enhancement is improving the asset. But what do i know.........

 

[Clip]

It's all a bit moot now, businesses in The City and Canary Wharf are packing up and moving to Dublin.

Dont be silly of course they are not - i mean even one of the big German banks is spending a fortune on a new HQ slap bang in the city of London

 

[Tetchytyke]

boarding at a terminus is much more civilized than a through station.

But if the terminus is OOC...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm impressed if so, as the talk at one point was to shut half the station for the building work.

The work has been descoped - there will be no rebuild of legacy Euston.

 

[adrock1976]

A thought regarding some of the negative connotations in the mainstream media on HS2:

Now that some of the prep work for the construction of HS2 is underway, and bearing in mind that the present day West Coast route began with the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, Grand Junction Railway, and London & Birmingham Railway (which all became part of the London & North Western), could the people in charge relaunch the project as "New London & North Western High Speed Railway"?

Likewise for the eastern arm of HS2, it could be relaunched as "New Midland High Speed Railway".

 

[si404]

could the people in charge relaunch the project as "New London & North Western High Speed Railway"?

Pointing out the age of the "Old London & North Western Railway" should go some distance to pointing out the need - it's going to not be far off its bicentennial when it HS2 opens.

 

[Ianno87]

But if the terminus is OOC...

Then *everybody* would be getting on at the terminus, making it a scrum at one station, not spreading it across two. Like Liverpool Street Main Line services picking up at Stratford. Spreads the load.

 

[PR1Berske]

A thought regarding some of the negative connotations in the mainstream media on HS2:

Now that some of the prep work for the construction of HS2 is underway, and bearing in mind that the present day West Coast route began with the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, Grand Junction Railway, and London & Birmingham Railway (which all became part of the London & North Western), could the people in charge relaunch the project as "New London & North Western High Speed Railway"?

Likewise for the eastern arm of HS2, it could be relaunched as "New Midland High Speed Railway".

I think that rebranding can work two ways. It could be seen as desperate if a project disliked and mistrusted tries to rebadge.

 

[kylemore]

Whatever happens, or indeed doesn't happen, on March the 29th, there is going to be a possibly quite radical political reset in the UK.

I think HS2's chances of surviving this may not be much better than 50/50, so our ramblings on here may turn out to be academic!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whatever happens, or indeed doesn't happen, on March the 29th, there is going to be a possibly quite radical political reset in the UK.

I think HS2's chances of surviving this may not be much better than 50/50, so our ramblings on here may turn out to be academic!

I'm not sure that's actually true. If things go left it'll probably stay, because public transport funding is a left-wing thing. If things go right, it'll probably stay, because right-wing parties like big national-pride infrastructure projects and trains (for rich people) over buses (for poor people).

Of course, it's possible that a bad Brexit means the country gets much poorer and so can't afford it.

 

[The Ham]

I'm not sure that's actually true. If things go left it'll probably stay, because public transport funding is a left-wing thing. If things go right, it'll probably stay, because right-wing parties like big national-pride infrastructure projects and trains (for rich people) over buses (for poor people).

Of course, it's possible that a bad Brexit means the country gets much poorer and so can't afford it.

However, there's an argument that by building it that it would act as a stimulus to the economy and so should be built as it would "pay" for itself through tax receipts and savings in social security payments (through more people in work and less people out work, either directly or indirectly in that the staff paid would need to buy this and services which employs other people).

P.S. given that spending on welfare is £115bn a year, even assuming that HS2 costs that over a 15 year period it would only need to stop unemployment payments by rising by 7% to totally pay for itself. However, even that doesn't allow for any tax receipts.

Now 7% may be very high for one project, however as it would benefit others beyond direct employees and the supply chain (for instance those staff getting their hair cut).

 

[si404]

Then *everybody* would be getting on at the terminus, making it a scrum at one station, not spreading it across two.

And OOC would be a through station with terminating sidings, as there's not enough room for a terminating station.

 

[Ianno87]

And OOC would be a through station with terminating sidings, as there's not enough room for a terminating station.

That too. And you'd need space for terminating trains equivalent to the Euston HS2 station footprint. The soonest place you could do that is probably, well, Euston!

All abit moot now anyway, given construction has started at Euston!

 

[AndrewE]

And OOC would be a through station with terminating sidings, as there's not enough room for a terminating station.

That too. And you'd need space for terminating trains equivalent to the Euston HS2 station footprint. The soonest place you could do that is probably, well, Euston!

Easy: send it somewhere south from Old Oak instead and get a more useful line that serves an extra region and cuts out some cross-London transfers.

All a bit moot now anyway, given construction has started at Euston!

Euston can probably use the extra space /platforms, although whether the costs of providing it could be justified is very doubtful!

 

[Bletchleyite]

All abit moot now anyway, given construction has started at Euston!

To be fair, Euston is quite intensively-worked these days - it's the same size (near enough, the parcels platforms might not have been used back then) as when it had about 3-4tph of IC, 2tph on the Northampton Line and 2-3tph DC trains on one platform. That does suggest some very good decisions were made when it was built in regard to futureproofing, but even if HS2 is canned it'd still be worth finishing the HS2 platforms as additional 12-car domestic ones Waterloo-style, though finding a couple of 319s there would be a bit of an anticlimax in a way. You could even perhaps use it as a dedicated suburban station like 8-11 used to be.

 

[The Planner]

Would require a redesign though, the HS2 platforms are lower down than the conventional ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would require a redesign though, the HS2 platforms are lower down than the conventional ones.

I'm sure some kind of connection could be built.

 

[Bald Rick]

Deleted

 

[Bald Rick]

od it would only need to stop unemployment payments by rising by 7% to totally pay for itself. However, even that doesn't allow for any tax receipts.

Unemployment benefit (Job Seeker’s Allowance) is 1% of the U.K. welfare bill.

 

[The Ham]

Unemployment benefit (Job Seeker’s Allowance) is 1% of the U.K. welfare bill.

OK, maybe I was being too simple with what I meant.

It's about £2bn unemployment benefit for 4.5% unemployment, under Thatcher it reached about 3 times that. (However if you look at the 1920's/30's then that was a good year when it was that low!). If we assume similar numbers then the payments could jump by £4bn.

On a 13 year build program gets you to £52bn.

However there's also the fact that your housing benefit costs would likely jump significantly, given that's currently £4bn, even an extra £2bn per year would then get you to a total £104bn over the same build period.

 

[underbank]

However, there's an argument that by building it that it would act as a stimulus to the economy and so should be built as it would "pay" for itself through tax receipts and savings in social security payments (through more people in work and less people out work, either directly or indirectly in that the staff paid would need to buy this and services which employs other people).

Depends if those currently unemployed have the right skills, experience and qualifications to take the jobs and whether they're located in the right area. If the majority of the jobs (or even a significant minority) are given to immigrants, then there may not actually be much reduction in the UK benefit bills. Not too sure whether that many ex-miners from Newcastle are going to be relocating to Birmingham.

 

[camflyer]

That's a heck of a lot of people to squeeze onto Crossrail....

18x Up to 400m trains per hour (7.2km of train per hour) squeezing on to 24 x 200m trains per hour (4.8km of train per hour). Plus people from Heathrow etc. already on Crossrail. That'll work...

Which is why Crossrail 2 is so necessary. Without it just imagine the number of people arriving at Euston and piling on the Northern Line for a connection to the Elizabeth Line at TCR.

 

[BR Boy 125]

As the title says.

I am a supporter of high speed rail in general, but I believe that the current plans for HS2 are far from perfect. Nevertheless I am a (reluctant) supporter of HS2. However, many people are opposed to HS2. Why is this?
Reasons I can think of include:

• Causes fairly significant environmental damage (although significantly less than a motorway!)
• Is built for speeds twice as fast as what we currently have
• Isn't a rebuild of an existing alignment
• Exists entirely so that businessmen and well paid bankers and executives can get to London quicker

Is there anything I haven't thought of? Replies from both sides of the debate are welcome.

Well. In order to build the line it will have to cut through dozens of properties which will without a doubt enrage the landowners. That's a reason.

 

[Ianno87]

Well. In order to build the line it will have to cut through dozens of properties which will without a doubt enrage the landowners. That's a reason.

Who have their land bought off them to do so at market rate, plus an amount as compensation for the inconvenience.

 

[BR Boy 125]

Who have their land bought off them to do so at market rate, plus an amount as compensation for the inconvenience.

Yes. It will kinda tick them off won't it though.

 

[camflyer]

Who have their land bought off them to do so at market rate, plus an amount as compensation for the inconvenience.

Or dig underneath their land which costs even more. If HS2 was just buying and flattening properties in its way the total cost would have been much lower.