Why are the Railways more expensive than air travel between Scotland & the South?

[Envoy]

I have just been checking some rail fares for travel from the south to Edinburgh. Date = Tuesday 6th September (now 15th July 2016).

Bristol TM to EDB cheapest = £83.90 but most are priced at £168.80. Flight price = £37.

Cardiff to Edinburgh = £172.10 but you can do it cheaper by splitting the ticket at Crewe. So, ATW from CDF (dep 10.05am) to CRE = £20.50 + CRE (dep on 13.09 Virgin) to EDB = £16.50 so total is £42 = a whopping £130.10 cheaper than the through ticket. Just one problem, if the ATW train fails to make the connection at Crewe and one catches a later Virgin, penalties could be charged or even the full walk on fare. So, best to fly with a flight at £30 from Cardiff to Edinburgh.

The London (KGX) > EDB comes in as low as £30 for the 9am departure.

Clearly, something is wrong here. Why are the people in Bristol & Cardiff having to pay so much more than those travelling a similar distance from London? Is it because not enough rolling stock as been allocated to the former? If that is so, why is the split ticket price from Cardiff to Edinburgh so much lower than the through ticket price? Why are return tickets often just £1 more than singles? This does nothing to encourage travel around Britain.

This is no way to run a railway. Does anybody ever check the airfares? If people are buying split tickets, then it is impossible to figure out how many passengers are making longer journeys. It must just show up as lots of commuters making short hops on long distance trains when this may not be the case.

 

[Hadders]

I have just been checking some rail fares for travel from the south to Edinburgh. Date = Tuesday 6th September (now 15th July 2016).

Bristol TM to EDB cheapest = £83.90 but most are priced at £168.80. Flight price = £37.

Cardiff to Edinburgh = £172.10 but you can do it cheaper by splitting the ticket at Crewe. So, ATW from CDF (dep 10.05am) to CRE = £20.50 + CRE (dep on 13.09 Virgin) to EDB = £16.50 so total is £42 = a whopping £130.10 cheaper than the through ticket. Just one problem, if the ATW train fails to make the connection at Crewe and one catches a later Virgin, penalties could be charged or even the full walk on fare. So, best to fly with a flight at £30 from Cardiff to Edinburgh.

The London (KGX) > EDB comes in as low as £30 for the 9am departure.

Clearly, something is wrong here. Why are the people in Bristol & Cardiff having to pay so much more than those travelling a similar distance from London? Is it because not enough rolling stock as been allocated to the former? If that is so, why is the split ticket price from Cardiff to Edinburgh so much lower than the through ticket price? Why are return tickets often just £1 more than singles? This does nothing to encourage travel around Britain.

This is no way to run a railway. Does anybody ever check the airfares? If people are buying split tickets, then it is impossible to figure out how many passengers are making longer journeys. It must just show up as lots of commuters making short hops on long distance trains when this may not be the case.

The Off Peak Return from Bristol Temple Meads to Edinburgh is £168.80. This is a flexible ticket, which can be purchased on the day of travel, is not quota controlled and allows return within a month. Comparing this to an 'Advance' air fare that is quota controlled and limited to one plane is fraught with difficulty.

Split ticketing isn't always cheaper. On some journeys it works, on others it doesn't. There's no need to worry about missing a train if using split Advance tickets as long as you leave the minimum connection time.

It all very well criticising the fares structure but how would you change it, without disadvantaging passengers or train company revenue?

The fact is for some journeys air is best, some are best done by rail and some are better by road. Air is not going to go away (nor should it).

 

[47271]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132623

You mention Bristol and Cardiff to Scotland, so the above thread devoted to Cross Country may give you some of the answers you're looking for.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Cardiff to Edinburgh = £172.10 but you can do it cheaper by splitting the ticket at Crewe. So, ATW from CDF (dep 10.05am) to CRE = £20.50 + CRE (dep on 13.09 Virgin) to EDB = £16.50 so total is £42 = a whopping £130.10 cheaper than the through ticket.

There is actually a through ticket available for £39 (no splitting required) on the 10:05 departure from Cardiff, changing at Manchester Piccadilly and arriving at Edinburgh 17:36. See attached screenshot. So (in this case at least) the fares are there, but it's the limitations of the booking engines and journey planners used by the rail industry that means they can't be found.

Air travel is simpler than that as it's just a simple point-to-point journey with no intermediate stops. A lot of people (even within the industry, I feel) just don't appreciate what a complicated and far-from-trivial task planning a rail journey and calculating fares is, even for a computer.

 

[AlterEgo]

... a whopping £130.10 cheaper than the through ticket. Just one problem, if the ATW train fails to make the connection at Crewe and one catches a later Virgin, penalties could be charged or even the full walk on fare.

This cannot happen. Even if travelling on one ticket the railway has specific guidance not to penalise passengers in these circumstances.

 

[All Line Rover]

Cardiff to Edinburgh = £172.10 but you can do it cheaper by splitting the ticket at Crewe. So, ATW from CDF (dep 10.05am) to CRE = £20.50 + CRE (dep on 13.09 Virgin) to EDB = £16.50 so total is £42 = a whopping £130.10 cheaper than the through ticket. Just one problem, if the ATW train fails to make the connection at Crewe and one catches a later Virgin, penalties could be charged or even the full walk on fare. So, best to fly with a flight at £30 from Cardiff to Edinburgh.

Your example is one of many which highlights why the ability to purchase separate tickets is a necessary part of the mainland UK's rail fare structure. There is limited co-operation between train companies in the setting of fares, but most train companies (excluding CrossCountry and, in the case of first class fares, GWR) offer very reasonable long distance Advance fares for journeys wholly on their own network. Therefore, the sensible approach is, very commonly, to purchase separate tickets for each leg of one's journey.

As AlterEgo points out, you will not be charged extra or otherwise penalised if a delay on one train causes you to miss another train for which you booked a separate ticket. All train companies are subject to a single set of rules (the NRCoC), which provides that multiple tickets can be used to form one journey, as is only to be expected in the light of examples such as these.

 

[Denzo]

This cannot happen. Even if travelling on one ticket the railway has specific guidance not to penalise passengers in these circumstances.

If one purchases an advanced ticket from Cardiff to Crewe on ATW and an advanced ticket from Crewe to Edinburgh Waverley on VTWC, purchased as two seperate single advanced tickets, then proceeds to miss the Crewe-to-Edinburgh train due to the first train being late, surely that's the passenger's own fault?

I was under the impression that only if travelling on a single ticket would ATW then be responsible for getting the passenger to Edinburgh by alternative means, where that be a later train, or a taxi.

 

[All Line Rover]

If one purchases an advanced ticket from Cardiff to Crewe on ATW and an advanced ticket from Crewe to Edinburgh Waverley on VTWC, purchased as two seperate single advanced tickets, then proceeds to miss the Crewe-to-Edinburgh train due to the first train being late, surely that's the passenger's own fault?

I was under the impression that only if travelling on a single ticket would ATW then be responsible for getting the passenger to Edinburgh by alternative means, where that be a later train, or a taxi.

No, and no.

It is hardly the passenger's fault that VTWC and ATW have not co-operated to set an appropriate through fare for Advance tickets!

I am 99% sure that ATW is the one to blame here, as it repeatedly refuses to co-operate with VTWC.

 

[AlterEgo]

If one purchases an advanced ticket from Cardiff to Crewe on ATW and an advanced ticket from Crewe to Edinburgh Waverley on VTWC, purchased as two seperate single advanced tickets, then proceeds to miss the Crewe-to-Edinburgh train due to the first train being late, surely that's the passenger's own fault?

Never heard anything so anti-passenger in my life!

It's not the reality.

Q04 - Can a customer buy two Advance tickets which join together to make onejourney, e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel the throughout journey A-C?

A: Yes, provided the train calls at B. See travel with a combination of tickets.

Note 1: Where a passenger buys multiple Advance tickets in this way, if they then have tochange their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of £10 fee.

Note 2: Where separate train companies are used for A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through rail journey in the event of delays (see also Q21 below) provided connections were booked in accordance with the advertised minimum times for stations. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge to Leeds holding a combination of Cambridge – Peterborough ‘XC only’ and Peterborough – Leeds ‘EC only’ is allowed to take the next Virgin Trains East Coast service in the event of a delay on the CrossCountry journey causing the connection to be missed.

 

[All Line Rover]

And NRCoC Condition 19 ("Using a combination of tickets"): "You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey...". Thereby entitling the passenger to all the rights conferred by the NRCoC for a journey by rail.

 

[Denzo]

Never heard anything so anti-passenger in my life!

It's not the reality.

I was under the impression that the rules WERE anti-passenger, to be fair

Last couple of times I've gone to London and back up to Scotland, we've been scheduled to arrive in Edinburgh Waverley very late in the evening such that there's only one remaining service back to Polmont.

We've always been careful to book full tickets Polmont to London, because the school of thinking was that if the VTEC (or East Coast, as it was a couple of years back) service ran late, then we'd be provided with a taxi back to Polmont, whereas if we'd just booked Edinburgh to London tickets and Polmont to Edinburgh separately, we'd be left stranded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never heard anything so anti-passenger in my life!

It's not the reality.

Interestingly it *is* the reality with airlines.

Fortunately, the railway is not an airline and tends to act more reasonably and does not deliberately set out to catch its passengers out.

 

[AlterEgo]

Interestingly it *is* the reality with airlines.

Fortunately, the railway is not an airline and tends to act more reasonably and does not deliberately set out to catch its passengers out.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[Deerfold]

I was under the impression that the rules WERE anti-passenger, to be fair

Last couple of times I've gone to London and back up to Scotland, we've been scheduled to arrive in Edinburgh Waverley very late in the evening such that there's only one remaining service back to Polmont.

We've always been careful to book full tickets Polmont to London, because the school of thinking was that if the VTEC (or East Coast, as it was a couple of years back) service ran late, then we'd be provided with a taxi back to Polmont, whereas if we'd just booked Edinburgh to London tickets and Polmont to Edinburgh separately, we'd be left stranded.

I'm afraid you've been misled.

I used to have a season ticket between London and Leeds and separate single tickets from Leeds to my final destination.

So long as I had bought the second ticket before arriving at Leeds, I was always transported to my final destination by (usually shared) taxi if the last valid connection was missed - by both VTEC and East Coast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The airlines' finest (legacy airlines, that is, not Ryanair) - miss your outward? We'll add to the injury by cancelling your return without refund.

Why that is legal I have no idea, but it is utterly unreasonable.

 

[Envoy]

No, and no.

It is hardly the passenger's fault that VTWC and ATW have not co-operated to set an appropriate through fare for Advance tickets!

I am 99% sure that ATW is the one to blame here, as it repeatedly refuses to co-operate with VTWC.

That being so, then surely it is up to the Welsh Government -as they now like to be known - to specify that any new operator for their services must have their fares able to combine with other operators for long distance travel.

When people see the sky high fares on some routes, they simply look for other options such as driving, coaches or air travel. (Many members of the public know nothing about this split ticket stuff). Anyway, it is good to hear the consensus of opinion stating that passengers who travel with separate tickets will not be penalised due to missed connections. I suppose one would have to hang onto the early stage ticket(s) as proof. (Perhaps that means no going to the shops at Birmingham New Street to kill time during more lengthy switches if the ticket gate has to be crossed)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is actually a through ticket available for £39 (no splitting required) on the 10:05 departure from Cardiff, changing at Manchester Piccadilly and arriving at Edinburgh 17:36. See attached screenshot. So (in this case at least) the fares are there, but it's the limitations of the booking engines and journey planners used by the rail industry that means they can't be found.

All well and good is your quotation for using ATW from Cardiff to Manchester & then Transpennine Express up to Edinburgh. Just one big problem; your journey on the 10.05 from Cardiff takes 7 hours 31 minutes. By changing to Virgin at Crewe, it takes only 6 hours 17 minutes.

It is a pity that no direct train operator goes from Cardiff to Edinburgh using the shortest route (via the Marches) and coming up with reasonable fares. If so, they could knock at least another 30 minutes off this journey.

 

[sheff1]

When people see the sky high fares on some routes, they simply look for other options such as driving, coaches or air travel.

I don't understand the apparent assumption that rail should be the first option checked for any journey. If I were travelling from Cardiff or Bristol to Edinburgh I would look at flights first. Only if the flight times were unsuitable or the fares excessively high would I check the trains.

 

[6Gman]

The London (KGX) > EDB comes in as low as £30 for the 9am departure.

Clearly, something is wrong here. Why are the people in Bristol & Cardiff having to pay so much more than those travelling a similar distance from London? Is it because not enough rolling stock as been allocated to the former? If that is so, why is the split ticket price from Cardiff to Edinburgh so much lower than the through ticket price? Why are return tickets often just £1 more than singles? This does nothing to encourage travel around Britain.

It is not the function of the railway "to encourage travel around Britain".

It may, or may not, be the role of the railway to:

a) provide a level of service which contributes to the overall performance of the economy;
b) maximise the value of the franchise to the Treasury;
c) maximise the value of the franchise to shareholders (or other owners);
d) achieve modal shift from more polluting options.

But not to encourage travel per se.

 

[edwin_m]

It is not the function of the railway "to encourage travel around Britain".

It may, or may not, be the role of the railway to:

a) provide a level of service which contributes to the overall performance of the economy;
b) maximise the value of the franchise to the Treasury;
c) maximise the value of the franchise to shareholders (or other owners);
d) achieve modal shift from more polluting options.

But not to encourage travel per se.

That's debatable. In many cases better public transport links to encourage travel by the most sustainable means is seen as a benefit to the public. The most obvious example is probably the Northern Powerhouse.

 

[telstarbox]

Well said.

Also, last time I looked, neither Cardiff nor Edinburgh airports are in the city centres so the two modes aren't directly comparable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well said.

Also, last time I looked, neither Cardiff nor Edinburgh airports are in the city centres so the two modes aren't directly comparable.

Most people do not originate their journey in the city centre. Often, good accessibility of airports by car is a benefit compared with starting by rail in the city centre.

Increasingly many peoples' destinations aren't, either, as offices and the likes are much more distributed around towns than they used to be.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That being so, then surely it is up to the Welsh Government -as they now like to be known - to specify that any new operator for their services must have their fares able to combine with other operators for long distance travel.

When people see the sky high fares on some routes, they simply look for other options such as driving, coaches or air travel. (Many members of the public know nothing about this split ticket stuff). Anyway, it is good to hear the consensus of opinion stating that passengers who travel with separate tickets will not be penalised due to missed connections. I suppose one would have to hang onto the early stage ticket(s) as proof. (Perhaps that means no going to the shops at Birmingham New Street to kill time during more lengthy switches if the ticket gate has to be crossed)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


All well and good is your quotation for using ATW from Cardiff to Manchester & then Transpennine Express up to Edinburgh. Just one big problem; your journey on the 10.05 from Cardiff takes 7 hours 31 minutes. By changing to Virgin at Crewe, it takes only 6 hours 17 minutes.

It is a pity that no direct train operator goes from Cardiff to Edinburgh using the shortest route (via the Marches) and coming up with reasonable fares. If so, they could knock at least another 30 minutes off this journey.

None of these replies really homes in on the fact that the designated operator for Cardiff/Bristol to Edinburgh is XC, who have failed entirely to offer competitive fares to airlines for this flow.
It's all down to low capacity on its trains, and overcrowding via Birmingham leading to people being deliberately priced off the route as a result.
The enforced split between XC and WC on the WCML between Birmingham and Scotland also depresses demand (no through trains via the fastest/shortest route).

 

[tbtc]

I have just been checking some rail fares for travel from the south to Edinburgh. Date = Tuesday 6th September (now 15th July 2016).

Bristol TM to EDB cheapest = £83.90 but most are priced at £168.80. Flight price = £37.

Cardiff to Edinburgh = £172.10 but you can do it cheaper by splitting the ticket at Crewe. So, ATW from CDF (dep 10.05am) to CRE = £20.50 + CRE (dep on 13.09 Virgin) to EDB = £16.50 so total is £42 = a whopping £130.10 cheaper than the through ticket. Just one problem, if the ATW train fails to make the connection at Crewe and one catches a later Virgin, penalties could be charged or even the full walk on fare. So, best to fly with a flight at £30 from Cardiff to Edinburgh.

The London (KGX) > EDB comes in as low as £30 for the 9am departure.

Clearly, something is wrong here. Why are the people in Bristol & Cardiff having to pay so much more than those travelling a similar distance from London? Is it because not enough rolling stock as been allocated to the former? If that is so, why is the split ticket price from Cardiff to Edinburgh so much lower than the through ticket price? Why are return tickets often just £1 more than singles? This does nothing to encourage travel around Britain.

This is no way to run a railway. Does anybody ever check the airfares? If people are buying split tickets, then it is impossible to figure out how many passengers are making longer journeys. It must just show up as lots of commuters making short hops on long distance trains when this may not be the case.

Cutting through the froth and the arguments about different TOCs...

...what should the cheapest ticket from Bristol to Edinburgh be?

Presumably somewhere close to £37 in the OP's eyes?

It's a journey of knocking on four hundred miles - I don't think that £83.90 is terrible for that distance?

It's a bit like the Money Saving Expert thread (where it was cheaper to do Sheffield - Essex via Berlin than getting the train - but the train fare was reasonable - about £45 IIRC - it was a quirk of air companies discounting empty seats).

Popular to bash the railways, sure, but if you want all of the bells and whistles that come with a railway (including all the guarantees about honouring connections etc). I don't buy into the argument that rail should always be seeking to undercut other modes of transport - rail is great at what it does but it won't always be cheapest (just as "cheapest" won't always be "best").

For everything else there's Megabus

 

[AlterEgo]

That being so, then surely it is up to the Welsh Government -as they now like to be known - to specify that any new operator for their services must have their fares able to combine with other operators for long distance travel.

1) This doesn't have much to do with ATW.
2) Through tickets to everywhere from everywhere are already available for all of Britain's stations. The problem here is split ticketing on other TOCs (or even between TOCs) is cheaper. How do you expect the Welsh government to fix that?

I understand the concept and paradox of split ticketing or over distance fares looks mad to the initiated, but the issue you've picked up today is older than privatisation!

 

[sheff1]

Also, last time I looked, neither Cardiff nor Edinburgh airports are in the city centres so the two modes aren't directly comparable.

Most journeys are not from city centre to city centre.

The thing to compare is the total journey from where you are to where you want to be. Unless you are driving direct from door to door the chances are that any given journey will involve a change of mode at one or both ends. Obviously the time and cost of getting to (and if necessary parking at) the departure point for the trunk journey will need to be taken into account along with the transfer from the airport or city centre station to your destination at the other end.

 

[Haywain]

Comments about TOCs failing to co-operate on fares setting fail to recognise that this is actually prohibited! Every station pair available has a designated TOC who set the fare for that journey, even if they do not provide the services that are then used. Collusion in fares setting is something that all Pricing Managers I know of will go out of their way to avoid becoming even a suspicion.

 

[All Line Rover]

Advance fares are not regulated. Co-operation in regard to the setting of these fares is common (but not common enough).

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder what the air fare is if you want a flexible return that allows you to come back any day for a month? People rarely post such a useful comparator...

 

[AlterEgo]

Why are return tickets often just £1 more than singles? This does nothing to encourage travel around Britain.

You're thinking about (most) Off Peak Returns. The "return for a pound more" pricing has been around for 20-30 years, and the intention was to encourage people to use the train for long distance leisure journeys.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder what the air fare is if you want a flexible return that allows you to come back any day for a month? People rarely post such a useful comparator...

It's £497.98, if you want to travel on Monday between Cardiff and Edinburgh.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder what the air fare is if you want a flexible return that allows you to come back any day for a month? People rarely post such a useful comparator...

And that would only give you a choice of two or three flights per day, which could well be fully booked. Whereas there's probably a train connection between Cardiff and Edinburgh every hour and if you can't find a seat you can still travel albeit having to stand for part of the way. And I'll chip in my usual spiel here about being able to do several hours work on a laptop on the train, but flying (including travelling to and from the airport and most of the waiting time there) is unproductive "dead time".