If a 2-car third rail unit were available, the Lymington branch would be a good place for it.
As mentioned before, 456s and 466s are two car third rail units, the 456s all operated by SWR, so they are "available."
If a 2-car third rail unit were available, the Lymington branch would be a good place for it.
As mentioned before, 456s and 466s are two car third rail units, the 456s all operated by SWR, so they are "available."
As normal someone’s looking for a solution to a non existent problem...I still don't understand this obsession with bringing a microfleet back to the Lymington Branch.
Microfleets are a bad idea and best avoided if possible.I still don't understand this obsession with bringing a microfleet back to the Lymington Branch.
One of the big things about the 309s was that you could stand in the gangway between the units and read the speedometers. In my experience they were nearly always indicating over 95mph running through Ingatestone from a standing start at Shenfield. The run from Shenfield was 15.5km (9.6miles) with a run time of between 8m:00s and 8m:30s, and the average gradient was just over 1:200 falling in the down direction (just over 1:300 in the 5.5km to Ingatestone gates). In that first stretch at just over 1km was the 6.25/25kV changeover point which with a three unit train would add a 20-30 second break in the acceleration.Thank you for clarifying, seems I remembered some bits. Something I often wondered was how able the 309s were at actually reaching 100mph. Certainly a standard 10-car formation doesn't seem all that powerful by modern standards?
The other thing is how much 100mph running there was. From Modern Railways the GEML seems to have still been 90 max in 1962/3.
Just some observations and ponderings
One of the big things about the 309s was that you could stand in the gangway between the units and read the speedometers. In my experience they were nearly always indicating over 95mph running through Ingatestone from a standing start at Shenfield. The run from Shenfield was 15.5km (9.6miles) with a run time of between 8:00 and 8:30, and and the average gradient was just over 1:200 falling in the down direction (just over 1:300 in the 5.5km to Ingatestone gates). In that first stretch at just over 1km was the 6.25/25kV changeover point which with a three unit train would add a 20-30 break in the acceleration.
All things are relative, but for it's day, probably the most interesting short sprint on an electric train in its day.
One of the big things about the 309s was that you could stand in the gangway between the units and read the speedometers. In my experience they were nearly always indicating over 95mph running through Ingatestone from a standing start at Shenfield. The run from Shenfield was 15.5km (9.6miles) with a run time of between 8m:00s and 8m:30s, and the average gradient was just over 1:200 falling in the down direction (just over 1:300 in the 5.5km to Ingatestone gates). In that first stretch at just over 1km was the 6.25/25kV changeover point which with a three unit train would add a 20-30 second break in the acceleration.
All things are relative, but for it's day, probably the most interesting short sprint on an electric train in its day.
The two-car 309s had the same number of motors as a 4-car, so had an extremely meaty power-to-weight ratio. I read somewhere that this was specifically intended to boost the acceleration of 10-car trains, as they had a better power-to-weight ratio than 4- or 8-car sets, providing more resilience in the peaks, but I'm not sure how much truth there is in that.
I think it was a bit of that and a capacity boost as even then there were quite a few Clacton and Colchester commuters which might have overwhelmed an 8-car train. The GEML has always been one of the most intensively worked routes out of London from the GER setting up the 'jazz' service around the turn of the 20th century, - steam hauled suburban services with a four minute dwell at Liverpool St. including a reversal and a loco change! The section to Shenfield was progressively four-tracked between the 1890s and the early 1930s, each time to relieve the congestion caused by ever increasing passenger demand. In my GE travelling days, 1968-1976, the inner suburban (class 306) outer suburban (classes 305/307/308) and mainline (classes 37/47 + LHCS and 309) were all interwoven between main (fast) and electric (slow) tracks with half of the intermediate Southend Victoria trains starting on the fasts in London, a stop in Straford, then slotting in between the slows after Gidea Park and finally slotting in between the faster Southend services at Shenfield. It didn't take much for the whole lines' services to be heavily delayed (often by careless passengers leaving doors open) on the Southends at Harold Wood/Brentwood/Shenfield electric line stops. The Clactons could generally keep to their paths out to Shenfield despite the numerous double and single yellows encountered, but a Norwich class47+11 LHCS would struggle to regain it's momentum after a check. The 17.30 to Yarmouth Vauxhall left LST just 2 minutes before the 17:32 outer suburban Colchester, and the 305s were often checked before their first stop at Chelmsford by the 47s trying to accelerate away from a delayed Southend weaving in front.... Funnily enough that's exactly what my impression was as if related above!
They are better used providing maximum length 10-car trains as 455+455+456 formations where they are really needed.Always struck me as the ideal place for a 456..
Slightly off topic, but on the other hand, a couple of dedicated 456 sets for the Lymington branch would release a 450 to strengthen services elsewhere, seeing that they have no further use and will probably go for scrap. After all SWT were happy to keep 421 3-Cig units going on that branch for a few yearsMicrofleets are a bad idea and best avoided if possible.
But very expensive to maintain and have a sufficient pool of drivers (training and diagramming issues). Reliability also tends to be far lower as not much engineering effort is applied to them.Slightly off topic, but on the other hand, a couple of dedicated 456 sets for the Lymington branch would release a 450 to strengthen services elsewhere, seeing that they have no further use and will probably go for scrap. After all SWT were happy to keep 421 3-Cig units going on that branch for a few years
But does the overall fleet plan actually need that 450 to strengthen services elsewhere? AIUI from previous discussions SWR staff have said the vast majority of services are now running at maximum length in the peaks.Slightly off topic, but on the other hand, a couple of dedicated 456 sets for the Lymington branch would release a 450 to strengthen services elsewhere, seeing that they have no further use and will probably go for scrap. After all SWT were happy to keep 421 3-Cig units going on that branch for a few years
See my post above on the best use for 456s. There has been plenty of strengthening of mainline services in recent years following the 707 introduction, such that a 450 can be made available for Lymington.Slightly off topic, but on the other hand, a couple of dedicated 456 sets for the Lymington branch would release a 450 to strengthen services elsewhere, seeing that they have no further use and will probably go for scrap. After all SWT were happy to keep 421 3-Cig units going on that branch for a few years
Never anything powered with a REP unless isolated. The Dorking - Horsham shuttle was 2EPB. Wimbledon to West Croydon, Staines to Weybridge, Staines to Woking, Tattenham Corner to Purley and Lymington were all two car workings.They did work singly on the Lymington and Sheerness branches, Maidstone West, Dorking to Horsham backwaters and I'm sure, other branches on the former South Western Division; however, they were tagged onto peak hour main-line units to add additional capacity
It's simply because they are enthusiasts - something 'rare', localised or unusual is, by definition, more interesting.See my post above on the best use for 456s. There has been plenty of strengthening of mainline services in recent years following the 707 introduction, such that a 450 can be made available for Lymington.
I just don’t understand this micro-fleet obsession that some enthusiasts have.
That is probably one of the best explanations for it I’ve ever seen.It's simply because they are enthusiasts - something 'rare', localised or unusual is, by definition, more interesting.
The erstwhile London Transport Acton Town to South Acton shuttle was operated by a single modified G stock car until its withdrawal in 1959. Perhaps the UK's only passenger single car EMU (ESU?).
There seems to be an interest in creating and using microfleets with the 230 Vivarail conversions...
When the Vivarail project was initially announced, one of the stated advantages was that most day-to-day maintenance could be done (at least in theory) with a fitter in a van.There seems to be an interest in creating and using microfleets with the 230 Vivarail conversions...
stopping it would be more funA single-car EMU would be fun, imagine how good the acceleration would be
I fancy the idea of a 2-car Stadler Flirt with both ordinary bogies motored, 2600BHP. Pocket rocket.stopping it would be more fun
A rare type indeed, which I'd missed totally.It turns out the PKP have a somewhat modern ESU, the EN81 from 2005. Not the most powerful, still interesting.
In my commuting days on that line you could sit behind the driver's cab and you would only hear the buzzer, never the bell, from Liverpool Street to Gidea Park and often not before Shenfield.I think it was a bit of that and a capacity boost as even then there were quite a few Clacton and Colchester commuters which might have overwhelmed an 8-car train. The GEML has always been one of the most intensively worked routes out of London from the GER setting up the 'jazz' service around the turn of the 20th century, - steam hauled suburban services with a four minute dwell at Liverpool St. including a reversal and a loco change! The section to Shenfield was progressively four-tracked between the 1890s and the early 1930s, each time to relieve the congestion caused by ever increasing passenger demand. In my GE travelling days, 1968-1976, the inner suburban (class 306) outer suburban (classes 305/307/308) and mainline (classes 37/47 + LHCS and 309) were all interwoven between main (fast) and electric (slow) tracks with half of the intermediate Southend Victoria trains starting on the fasts in London, a stop in Straford, then slotting in between the slows after Gidea Park and finally slotting in between the faster Southend services at Shenfield. It didn't take much for the whole lines' services to be heavily delayed (often by careless passengers leaving doors open) on the Southends at Harold Wood/Brentwood/Shenfield electric line stops. The Clactons could generally keep to their paths out to Shenfield despite the numerous double and single yellows encountered, but a Norwich class47+11 LHCS would struggle to regain it's momentum after a check. The 17.30 to Yarmouth Vauxhall left LST just 2 minutes before the 17:32 outer suburban Colchester, and the 305s were often checked before their first stop at Chelmsford by the 47s trying to accelerate away from a delayed Southend weaving in front.
Frustrating as a commuter but interesting once the workings of the line was understood. All in all, not unlike the current MML peaks.
Why would it be any better than any other number of cars. One of the advantages of multiple units over loco-hauled is that power increases with the number of cars, s each car or unit has its own power.A single-car EMU would be fun, imagine how good the acceleration would be
Why would it be any better than any other number of cars. One of the advantages of multiple units over loco-hauled is that power increases with the number of cars, s each car or unit has its own power.