Why are there no sleeper services between London and continental Europe?

[wintonian]

Please don't end the story there it was just getting intersting......So what happend? why so near yet so far?

 

[caliwag]

Try this peeps

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...kLnSnn&sig=AHIEtbS2ABGT49UVmq3NpgMu83BtcIAFqA
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed Mike Guerra was the guy I met. Isn't Google marvellous?

 

[gordonthemoron]

One solution would be to build holding sidings on the French and English sides of the Channel Tunnel. Thus, a sleeper heading to France would stop at the holding sidings on the French side so passport checks and baggage searches could be carried out (although this would be difficult without disturbing passengers - one solution might be to ask passengers to give their passports to the train manager) and vice versa.

Nice, that'd be just like old times when the train from Hoek van Holland to Berlin passed through the Iron Curtain at Helmstedt. The East German border police boarded the train en-masse, locked the doors and took the train apart.

Back to the original question. DB seem to have 5 spare Talgo night train sets knocking about somewhere as they were taken out of service last December, How about using them? The last I saw of one of them was in the sidings in Pasing outside Munich in February

 

[stut]

I agree that for journeys such as London to Paris a sleeper is a no hoper. Where sleepers may have a role to play, and I'm not entirely sure that they do, is for longer journeys.

I think where sleepers have a role to play is where they cover journeys that are popular, but not particularly easy by other means. The West Highlands, for example, are perfect for a sleeper service - it's a pain to get to Fort William by plane or day train. There's not many of these left anymore, though.

The other possible market is for those journeys that are just a bit too long by plane to do a day trip, particularly with the time difference. Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Zurich - all good banking destinations, all under 1h30 flight - perfect for a day trip, even if it's a miserable experience (think leaving your house at 4am, getting home at 9pm).

So, where does that leave, either in the UK regions, or starting from London? West Wales, perhaps? No ferry traffic now, of course. France? Nah, every puddle in France is served by FlyBE and Ryanair. Germany? Why bother, all the airports are an hour away and linked to the rail network. The Netherlands? No, the rail route is too indirect, and the flying time is ridiculously small. Plus, getting anywhere from Schiphol is easy - not that there's really a market for Enschede or Leeuwarden from the UK. Zurich? Milan? Really on the edge of timing direct from the UK. Perhaps some ski trains?

Personally, I would use a sleeper on a business trip to Amsterdam, Frankfurt or Zurich on the way out (leave after 11pm, arrive before 9am, straight to office) as long as I could get a decent shower, then fly home. I've done this domestically a few times (the shower arrangements really let it down) and in Norway from Bergen to Oslo, but... I agree that there's a reason there's so few services.

 

[LE Greys]

I can think of a possible market for a sleeper with Motorail vans, if you are going on holiday with a lot of luggage and want your own car rather than hiring one. London to Marseilles/Rome would seem to be the most likely route. However, it is a small niche market, and probably only during the summer.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Nice, that'd be just like old times when the train from Hoek van Holland to Berlin passed through the Iron Curtain at Helmstedt. The East German border police boarded the train en-masse, locked the doors and took the train apart.

So, should enterting the UK be as difficult and as unpleasant for the travelling public as entering into East Germany c1985 ? !!

 

[Greenback]

I think where sleepers have a role to play is where they cover journeys that are popular, but not particularly easy by other means. The West Highlands, for example, are perfect for a sleeper service - it's a pain to get to Fort William by plane or day train. There's not many of these left anymore, though.

The other possible market is for those journeys that are just a bit too long by plane to do a day trip, particularly with the time difference. Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Zurich - all good banking destinations, all under 1h30 flight - perfect for a day trip, even if it's a miserable experience (think leaving your house at 4am, getting home at 9pm).

So, where does that leave, either in the UK regions, or starting from London? West Wales, perhaps? No ferry traffic now, of course. France? Nah, every puddle in France is served by FlyBE and Ryanair. Germany? Why bother, all the airports are an hour away and linked to the rail network. The Netherlands? No, the rail route is too indirect, and the flying time is ridiculously small. Plus, getting anywhere from Schiphol is easy - not that there's really a market for Enschede or Leeuwarden from the UK. Zurich? Milan? Really on the edge of timing direct from the UK. Perhaps some ski trains?

Personally, I would use a sleeper on a business trip to Amsterdam, Frankfurt or Zurich on the way out (leave after 11pm, arrive before 9am, straight to office) as long as I could get a decent shower, then fly home. I've done this domestically a few times (the shower arrangements really let it down) and in Norway from Bergen to Oslo, but... I agree that there's a reason there's so few services.

There's no reason why overnight and sleeper travel couldn't become viable again in the future. In another thread there;s been a realistic discussion on the future of flying, and it seems probable that at some point air travel will once again be out of reach of many people.

 

[shinkansen1966]

There's no reason why overnight and sleeper travel couldn't become viable again in the future. In another thread there;s been a realistic discussion on the future of flying, and it seems probable that at some point air travel will once again be out of reach of many people.

This is my feeling, too. I've been dipping in and out the future of flying discussion elsewhere on this forum.

30 years from now, it's quite possible that budget short haul flights will be a thing of the past. Either too expensive, or leglislated out of existance on environmental grounds.

Budget flights created demand. People haven't necessarily switched to budget airlines from other modes of transport. We are all fickle. And when belts tighten or airfare become expensive, there won't be much heartache giving up that cheap EasyJet weekend in Prague....

 

[Greenback]

They have created demand, but there has also been a bit of a switch from overnight services (see the Irish ferries now!), which is part of the reason there has been a decline in European overnight trains over the past decade.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

I realise there is competition with budget airlines. But I started the thread pointing out there are quite a few sleeper services within Europe. The angle I was trying to take is, how come London is left out?

 

[Greenback]

I realise there is competition with budget airlines. But I started the thread pointing out there are quite a few sleeper services within Europe. The angle I was trying to take is, how come London is left out?

Haven't we covered that? Sleeper trains in Europe are in decline currently, perhaps they will revive in a few years, but the Chunnel sleepers never got off the ground because it was decided they would not be economic.

In reality, I suspect that the plans for through trains from the regions of the UK were merely a sop to enable the tunnel to be built in the first place.

 

[shinkansen1966]

In reality, I suspect that the plans for through trains from the regions of the UK were merely a sop to enable the tunnel to be built in the first place.

This is my thinking too. £180 million was spent on regional eurostars
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/europe/reviewofregionaleurostarserv3325?page=3
what a waste of taxpayer's money.

Fast forward to 2010. Interesting how St Pancras is now promoted as a transfer point for onward connections on WCML, ECML and MML. Look at all these through fares being offered from (say) Sheffield to Paris.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, like I think I may have said somewhere, there's a large population in conurbations such as the South Yorkshire/Leeds/Bradford areas, Manchester and East Lance, Merseyside and the West Midlands that could make a sleeper service to Paris/Brussels viable in the future.

It's a shame that the services weren;t even tried after all that money had spent.

 

[gordonthemoron]

apparently (according to DB), the reason that they have reduced the capacity of the Munich to Berlin sleeper is becuase it 'only' takes 6 hours on an ICE. Now I like train travel, but judging by the reservations on the trains, not many others are willing to put up with the 3 hour 60mph stretch between Nuremburg & Leipzig to do the full stretch. I expect that most people fly

This will probable change when that section is replaced with a new High Speed line sometime around 2017

 

[LE Greys]

This is my thinking too. £180 million was spent on regional eurostars
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/europe/reviewofregionaleurostarserv3325?page=3
what a waste of taxpayer's money.

Fast forward to 2010. Interesting how St Pancras is now promoted as a transfer point for onward connections on WCML, ECML and MML. Look at all these through fares being offered from (say) Sheffield to Paris.

I'm not sure how much was spent on Nightstar, but all it ever did was provide VIA Rail with some very good rolling stock at a low price. It rather surprising that the stock did not find its way onto domestic sleeper services (despite the weight) which would have freed up a lot of MkIII sleepers for conversion to parcels vans. 125 mph parcels trains would probably have survived better than the 100 mph ones did, although there is no way to be sure.

Having been to Kensington Olympia recently, it is rather surprising that it was ever going to be an international terminal. Maybe there was going to be a refurb, but the station looks far too short to handle a Regional Eurostar.

 

[90019]

I'm not sure how much was spent on Nightstar, but all it ever did was provide VIA Rail with some very good rolling stock at a low price.

I thought VIA had loads of problems with the Nightstar stock?

 

[pinkpanther]

In my opinion, even if there was a sleeper between London and the continent, there just wouldn't be any business for it.

Firstly there is the normal Eurostar service, which can get you from London to Paris in is it an hour? I'm not sure I've never travelled Eurostar.

Eurostar is OK - I've travelled it quite a few times now (and Thalys and DB, for that matter).

We did Bournemouth - Berlin a while back, and it involved changes in London (not too bad) and Brussels (a 2 hour late night wait in the station from hell with everything closed). However when it arrived, the DB sleeper was fantastic - built in showers, one attendant for each coach and complimentary champaigne on embarkation.

The quality of the latter of course means that there's no way such a service could compete with budget airlines (which remember are effectively Government subsidised - fuel duty/VAT). That said, it wasn't trying to. We paid for the relaxed journey, and avoiding the hassle of check-in airports have to impose for even short distance flights these days.

Would I use it again? Without hesitation (we have a potential trip to Vienna coming up, and I'd really prefer not to fly if at all practical) - but I would [bfar[/b] rather catch a sleeper from at least London - and ideally from my nearest mainline station (Bournemouth Central) than have to wait on a cold platform in somewhere like Brussels Midi.

The sooner DB get access through the tunnel the better.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I'm not sure how much was spent on Nightstar, but all it ever did was provide VIA Rail with some very good rolling stock at a low price.

Very good? No. Low price? Yes!

I thought VIA had loads of problems with the Nightstar stock?

They did.

New VIA trains pose problems for disabled people: ruling
Last Updated: Saturday, March 29, 2003 | 12:31 PM ET
Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/03/28/Viadisability_030328.html

The Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) has ruled VIA Rail's new high-speed trains pose major accessibility problems for people with disabilities.

"It's confirmation that disabled people are encountering obstacles — that these are inaccessible trains," said David Baker, a lawyer for the Council of Canadians with Disabilities.

The CTA has ordered VIA to disclose technical information, including what it will cost to fix the trains. Once it has that information, the agency will decide whether to order changes to the cars.

Baker says VIA bought the trains at a reduced price and was trying to save money.

Renaissance cars are running in the Montreal to Toronto overnight service, the Montreal to Halifax day and night service, the Montreal to Gaspe day and overnight service and the Quebec City through Windsor corridor day service.

The council had argued the new cars would bar many disabled people from using the trains. Those with trunk control problems, balance problems, chronic pain, those who require oxygen and those who have frequent seizures are unable to transfer to another chair.

The ruling listed 14 obstacles which may be "undue," including:

* no moveable aisle arm rests on the double-seat side of the cars to help transfer a person from their wheelchair to the seat
* the space in the wheelchair tie-down area is inadequate
* the aisle between the two washrooms is too narrow
* there's a lack of closed stair risers
* insufficient space in the washroom

VIA Rail has defended its purchase of the cars because of its "remarkably low cost." It has also argued the trains are accessible.

"VIA Rail remains committed to providing all Canadians with accessible passenger rail service in accordance with the principles found in the voluntary code of practice signed by VIA in 1998," said Malcolm Andrews of VIA.

Make trains more accessible, top court tells Via
Last Updated: Friday, March 23, 2007 | 12:18 PM ET
Source: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/23/via-disabled.html

Via Rail must make changes to 40 of the new coaches it bought in 2000 to make them more accessible to people in wheelchairs, Canada's top court ruled Friday.

The Supreme Court upheld a decision by the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA), which in 2003 ordered Via to make changes to some of its 139 Renaissance coaches.

The CTA ruled that Via had to make accessible one coach car in each day trip and one sleeper in each overnight trip. That would entail modifications to 13 economy coach cars for the day trips, and 17 service cars for overnight trips.

The court ruled 5-4 in favour of the Council of Canadians with Disabilities (CCD), which has been pushing Via to make the changes since 2000. The CTA supported the council, but Via successfully appealed to the Federal Court of Appeal.

The top court has now overturned the appeal ruling. The decision and dissent were based on whether the CTA had properly exercised its authority.

Cost estimates to make the changes vary wildly. Via earlier said the changes could cost between $48 million and $92 million. The Supreme Court ruling, citing the CTA decision, said meeting "the Rail Code standard of one accessible car per train could be achieved … at a total direct cost of $673,400."

The ruling was welcomed by Pat Danforth of the CCD. "This decision puts Canada back on the map when it comes to access and travel for people with disabilities." It also may help any traveller struggling for access in the coaches, such as parents with children in strollers.

Before buying the Renaissance cars, VIA used its business-class cars for passengers with wheelchairs.

But in those cars, "personal wheelchairs could not be used anywhere." None of the three washrooms was wheelchair accessible. There was a "wheelchair tie-down" mechanism, but the space allocated for it would not accommodate a standard wheelchair.

The CCD wanted that space enlarged to fit wheelchairs. The group also wanted accessible washrooms.

The Renaissance cars, bought for the bargain basement price of $139 million in 2000, are a significant part of Via's fleet.

In 2003, the CTA ruled that Via's Renaissance passenger rail cars had undue obstacles for people in wheelchairs.

Via took the case to the Federal Court of Appeal, where the railway argued that the CTA lacked jurisdiction to rule on the issue because there had never been an incident in which a disabled person had encountered an undue obstacle.

The appeal court set aside the CTA order, and told the agency to reconsider the issue, after considering whether the cars do pose access problems, what alternatives are available in other VIA cars, and the cost and technical feasibility of making changes.

The CCD then appealed to the Supreme Court.

That's not even beginning to touch upon the huge technical difficulties VIA have faced in adapting them for use in Canada. Outside the Québec / Ontario "Corridor", few stations have high level platforms, so each carriage needed custom-designed motorised steps that fold out from beneath the doors. Similarly, the carriages simply weren't designed or built with -40ºC winters, driving snow or ice storms in mind.

They are also, I'm sad to report, hellishly uncomfortable in seated economy class on an overnight journey... hard hard seats and a proliferation of sharp pointy edges all over the place for you to jab bits of your body against when you try to sleep at night...