Why are tickets less often checked at night?

[boiledbeans2]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/railcard-26-30.227074/

[...]In practice it may well never have come up - ticket inspections on trains after midnight, unless you're using the Sleepers, are pretty much entirely unknown.[...]

Off topic, but why don't they check tickets at night? From my personal experience, I don't think I've had my tickets checked after 8pm. I've seen the guard walk up and down the train in case someone has questions for them. But they don't check tickets.

Possibility of anti-social behaviour at night?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Off topic, but why don't they check tickets at night? From my personal experience, I don't think I've had my tickets checked after 8pm. I've seen the guard walk up and down the train in case someone has questions for them. But they don't check tickets.

Possibility of anti-social behaviour at night?

In the case of guards it is often for reasons of personal safety. The reason the RPI squads tend not to be out is that it simply isn't worth the money as there won't be much fare dodging, as almost everyone at that time of night is on the return portion of a day return ticket or a season. WMT did, when they took over from LM, have gatelines closed for the full period of service, but the staff were just contract security guards who couldn't do anything other than let you out and point you to the TVM if you didn't have a ticket, it was just a deterrent to "pay when challenged" people. This now seems to have stopped.

 

[Hadders]

Off topic, but why don't they check tickets at night? From my personal experience, I don't think I've had my tickets checked after 8pm. I've seen the guard walk up and down the train in case someone has questions for them. But they don't check tickets.

Possibility of anti-social behaviour at night?

There is the safety aspect to consider but it's also worth considering how the British Rail fares structure helped revenue protection.

Take a day return journey, there are 6 opportunities to check tickets:

At the starting station barrier line
On board the outward train
At the destination station barrier line
At the barrier line at the start of the return journey
On board the return train
At the barrier line at the end of the return journey

A off peak day return costs 10p more than a single so as long as one of the above six checks is made the railway will effectively obtain its revenue.
Off Peak (period) return is £1 more than a single and so the same principle applies.

Admitedely this does fall down with the advent of single leg pricing but hats off to BR as it is a pretty effective revenue protection model.

 

[LowLevel]

I love checking tickets late at night, the look of surprise is worth it

When we had a Nottingham trolley on the last one from Liverpool I used to double team with the host out of Sheffield on a Saturday night - they'd go down flogging a final drink to people whilst I checked their tickets or took their fare. I have little reason to be concerned for my own safety but it used to reassure the host and there was often a pretty impressive amount of cash in the till by Chesterfield!

For some reason people seem to be innately worried about late night services but over the years I've learned that I'm far more likely to meet threats of or actual violence during the day time. In any case you either learn to manage and mitigate that, or you don't.

 

[L401CJF]

I love checking tickets late at night, the look of surprise is worth it

When we had a Nottingham trolley on the last one from Liverpool I used to double team with the host out of Sheffield on a Saturday night - they'd go down flogging a final drink to people whilst I checked their tickets or took their fare. I have little reason to be concerned for my own safety but it used to reassure the host and there was often a pretty impressive amount of cash in the till by Chesterfield!

For some reason people seem to be innately worried about late night services but over the years I've learned that I'm far more likely to meet threats of or actual violence during the day time. In any case you either learn to manage and mitigate that, or you don't.

I've only just started on the railway and not worked any night trains yet - still in training and got a few months to go - but I've worked the last 7 years driving buses and I agree. Always got more trouble, verbal abuse and fire evasion during the daytime than at night.

A lot of people don't like lates because of "the drunks", however i always find that both on the trains I travel on and the buses I've worked that most passengers at night are generally just workers wanting to get home after a long day. Friday Saturday nights, yeah there's a few drunks but 99% of them are merry and could always have a good laugh with them!

Also to add to your last point about dealing with abuse/violence and how to difuse situations, in my last job I found it was the same colleagues that seemed to get all the drama all the time, whereas I was only verbally abuse about 3 times in 7 years. The way you come across and the way you manage things makes a hell of a difference!

 

[Fokx]

Another factor not mentioned is often the last few trains are usually the ones where the guard/ticket inspector is on their way to their Home Depot.

From general experience, by this time usually my ticket machine is very close to dying, particularly if it’s been used for nearly 10 hours, or I’ll use that time instead to cash up and ensure all my takings are accurate with no loss and paperwork is completed (including reports to controllers/revenue) as there is no time or suitable location is available at the end of my shift once the train is disposed of that isn’t public.

I’d also add that in a post-Covid world the amount of passengers wearing face coverings of a night drops dramatically as people travel to/from evening entertainment in their weekend-best, often consuming beverages/food

I too don’t find late services bad for behaviour, all my recent issues have been the first few morning trains around 4-6am

 

[telstarbox]

From years of experience, late trains are either dead quiet or busy and boozy (depending on the day of the week and whether it's intercity or local one). The latter can be lively but there would be a lot of people about if someone did kick off.

In suburban London people generally have to touch in at the central terminal barrier, so they will also touch out at their destination even if it's not barriered. The ones on paper tickets will have bought day returns as above.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

When we had a Nottingham trolley on the last one from Liverpool I used to double team with the host out of Sheffield on a Saturday night - they'd go down flogging a final drink to people whilst I checked their tickets or took their fare. I have little reason to be concerned for my own safety but it used to reassure the host and there was often a pretty impressive amount of cash in the till by Chesterfield!

That seems a good example of where you might expect people to have bought day returns for their outward?!

 

[LowLevel]

That seems a good example of where you might expect people to have bought day returns for their outward?!

Many do, however it's two un-barriered stations mostly served by Intercity services less than 15 minutes apart - plenty chance it.

 

[Llandudno]

Many do, however it's two un-barriered stations mostly served by Intercity services less than 15 minutes apart - plenty chance it.

You do wonder how many journeys between Chesterfield and Sheffield in either direction get unrecorded over the period of a year!

 

[robbeech]

You do wonder how many journeys between Chesterfield and Sheffield in either direction get unrecorded over the period of a year!

I don’t think I’ve ever had a standard class ticket check between Chesterfield and Sheffield on an intercity service and likely very infrequently the other way around, even on services starting at Sheffield. The EMR Liverpool - Norwich services and the Northern Stoppers very different though.

 

[Meole]

Most barriers are left open in the evening.

 

[londonbridge]

Always got more trouble, verbal abuse and fare evasion during the daytime than at night.

Agree that I’ve seen more fare evasion when travelling during the day than in the evening. Most recently a Saturday morning, I’d been up to Gunpowder Park for parkrun, got a train back to Liverpool Street, arriving just after 11am, saw two kids just climb over the barriers and walk off along the concourse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many do, however it's two un-barriered stations mostly served by Intercity services less than 15 minutes apart - plenty chance it.

Along similar lines the last evening train between MKC and Bletchley or Wolverton was locally known as "the free train" because nobody would ever bother checking. The thing is that a small number of £4s collected wouldn't pay for the RPI cover, and most south WCML guards don't do tickets ever, let alone at midnight.

Agree that I’ve seen more fare evasion when travelling during the day than in the evening. Most recently a Saturday morning, I’d been up to Gunpowder Park for parkrun, got a train back to Liverpool Street, arriving just after 11am, saw two kids just climb over the barriers and walk off along the concourse.

You may be right, though it doesn't always follow that someone climbing over/pushing through a gateline don't have a ticket if the gateline is remote-staffed. I've had to do this in a couple of places before because the remote monitoring was not in fact in place, demonstrated by the fact that nothing was done about it.

(Yes, I'm aware it's technically a Byelaw breach, but I doubt it is one that has ever been prosecuted - you would more likely get an apology if a ticket was held and a RoRA prosecution if it was not)

 

[londonbridge]

The manner in which they jumped/climbed over and their body language as they swaggered off left me in no doubt they didn’t have tickets…..

 

[RJ]

I love checking tickets late at night, the look of surprise is worth it

When we had a Nottingham trolley on the last one from Liverpool I used to double team with the host out of Sheffield on a Saturday night - they'd go down flogging a final drink to people whilst I checked their tickets or took their fare. I have little reason to be concerned for my own safety but it used to reassure the host and there was often a pretty impressive amount of cash in the till by Chesterfield!

For some reason people seem to be innately worried about late night services but over the years I've learned that I'm far more likely to meet threats of or actual violence during the day time. In any case you either learn to manage and mitigate that, or you don't.

Ha, wish there was a like button!

 

[johntea]

I've noticed at Leeds the gateline late at night (sort of 11pm onwards) particularly on Friday/Saturday nights seems to be single staffed and they just leave one gate wide open

An interesting 'chicken and egg' situation really as there are many services arriving into Leeds from unstaffed stations, if you can't buy a ticket for whatever reason (ticket machines out of order, wanting to pay cash etc.) and the guard doesn't come down the service then the first opportunity to pay is at Leeds, but by that time the excess fares window near Platform 1 have knocked off for the evening so the opportunity to pay is the ticket window on the concourse after passing through the gateline!

They do seem to be quite hot on checking tickets before letting you on the platforms for the twilight hour services though (e.g. York > Manchester Airport)