Why are West Yorkshire Metro contradicting the National Conditions of Travel

[yorksrob]

The National Conditions of Travel clearly state that where a zonal ticket is used in conjunction with ticket from the boundary, the train doesn't have to call at that station:

"If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid."

Why then does West Yorkshire Metro post contradictory advice in something called the "West Yorkshire Metro guide to cross boundary travel" which blatantly contradicts the national conditions of travel by stating that Metrocards cannot be used in this way on through trains run by some TOC's:

"Please note You cannot use these combinations of tickets on services operated by CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains, Virgin Trains or Virgin Trains East Coast."

Why does West Yorkshire Metro believe it is allowed to contradict the National Conditions of Travel, and why do operatives on Arriva Cross Country believe that this local document outranks the National Conditions of Travel.

 

[OwlMan]

Because they can, third parties can choose their own T&Cs.If they choose not have a contract with Cross Country that is their choice
TOCs do not have to accept tickets issued by a third party (including WY Metro) as they are not core products in the TSA. There would have to be an contract (which would cost WY Metro money) for XC to accept private settlement tickets
See NRCoT (quoted below)

from NRCoT
14.3 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will
be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets, and you cannot
use such a Ticket in conjunction with another except as set out in 14.1 above.
14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the
Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for
which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the
Conditions listed above.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The National Conditions of Travel clearly state that where a zonal ticket is used in conjunction with ticket from the boundary, the train doesn't have to call at that station.

Why then does West Yorkshire Metro post contradictory advice in something called the "West Yorkshire Metro guide to cross boundary travel" which blatantly contradicts the national conditions of travel by stating that Metrocards cannot be used in this way on through trains run by some TOC's.

Why does West Yorkshire Metro believe it is allowed to contradict the National Conditions of Travel, and why do operatives on Arriva Cross Country believe that this local document outranks the National Conditions of Travel.

(links etc to follow).

If the NRCoT apply, and you are not made aware of any restriction on the use of the product for non-stopping splits when purchasing, then the "guide to cross boundary travel" has no meaning, and TOCs can moan all they want but they cannot change the situation (nor the validity of a non-stopping split with a zonal product).

The question is merely whether the NRCoT apply to a West Yorkshire Metro product. That, I cannot say.

If anyone has any difficulties using a WYM product with a non-stopping split - having not been informed of any restrictions on doing this - then it would be useful to hear what has happened.

 

[yorksrob]

Because they can, third parties can choose their own T&Cs.If they choose not have a contract with Cross Country that is their choice
TOCs do not have to accept tickets issued by a third party (including WY Metro) as they are not core products in the TSA. There would have to be an contract (which would cost WY Metro money) for XC to accept private settlement tickets
See NRCoT (quoted below)

Its typical. The one good news story in terms of fares over the past couple of years, and this thieving, grasping sham of an industry can't even manage to get that right.

I've stopped advocating rail transport to my friends and family this year. The industry doesn't deserve my support.

 

[yorksrob]

If the NRCoT apply, and you are not made aware of any restriction on the use of the product for non-stopping splits when purchasing, then the "guide to cross boundary travel" has no meaning, and TOCs can moan all they want but they cannot change the situation (nor the validity of a non-stopping split with a zonal product).

The question is merely whether the NRCoT apply to a West Yorkshire Metro product. That, I cannot say.

If anyone has any difficulties using a WYM product with a non-stopping split - having not been informed of any restrictions on doing this - then it would be useful to hear what has happened.

I will certainly be writing some letters to find out.

It's funny - the TOC's wax lyrica about "simplification". What could be more simple than abiding by the conditions of travel.

 

[some bloke]

Metro's position may be weakened by the fact that the words "boundary", "guide" and the train companies do not appear in the actual terms and conditions:
https://m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/mcard-general-terms-and-conditions/
https://m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/day-weekend-ticket-terms-conditions/

The National Rail Conditions of Travel specifically refer to passengers being made aware of terms and conditions at the time of purchase.

The ideas that all passengers are told about the cross-boundary guide
https://www.wymetro.com/media/2280/1910-cross-boundary-leaflet-22318-final.pdf
and that the guide counts as terms and conditions are both perhaps questionable.

 

[TUC]

Is the issue that, whilst the NECoT can set that for the ticket covering thst non-Metrocard part of the journey, the train does not have to call at the boundary station, Metro can set what conditions it wishes about the validity of its own tickets? (Although I have to say that I'm not sure Metro understands the issue. I emailed them to query the position a while ago and I didn't receive the courtesy of a reply).

 

[some bloke]

Edit: This post is erroneous/irrelevant as pointed out by ForTheLoveOf below.

..........

The last part of Condition 14.3 may be of interest:

14.1 Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a
journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change
from one Ticket to another.

14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such
as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last
station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are
the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be
valid.

14.3 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will
be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets, and you cannot
use such a Ticket in conjunction with another except as set out in 14.1 above.

14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the
Conditions listed above.

 

[yorksrob]

What with this and the WY pocket timetable fiasco, it seems as though Metro are losing the plot.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The last part of Condition 14.3 may be of interest:

Well, of course you can never be denied the right to do stopping splits!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, of course you can never be denied the right to do stopping splits!

I believe there is a legal precedent (against BR) which prevents that. In Ireland, which being a different country is not affected by UK legal precedent, stopping splits *are* explicitly banned (it is, or was, even printed on the back of the ticket), though I suspect enforcement is likely to be very patchy based more on whether someone has done it to extend a ticket or specifically to save money (a bit like the way break of journey restrictions on Off Peak tickets or stopping short on Advances are, or rather mostly aren't, enforced) - so more of a "we reserve the right" not a "we will".

 

[some bloke]

Well, of course you can never be denied the right to do stopping splits!

My apologies - I misread.

 

[marcouk2]

I've personally never had any issues using a WYMetro Dayrover for non-stopping splits. As @some bloke says the T&Cs for the Dayrover don't prevent non-stopping splits and don't refer to the Cross-boundary leaflet at all.

The Cross-boundary leaflet is ambiguous at best and appears to be totally false depending on how it's read.

Edit: plus I don't think you'd get far trying to use a WYMetro product on any Virgin Trains service.

 

[ASharpe]

I don't think the Cross Boundary Travel leaflet is part of the terms and conditions. I just think it's a simplified/dumbed down version of the NRCoT Section 14.

I think it's clear that Metro make no attempt to invoke section 14.3 on their tickets.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think the Cross Boundary Travel leaflet is part of the terms and conditions. I just think it's a simplified/dumbed down version of the NRCoT Section 14.

I think it's clear that Metro make no attempt to invoke section 14.3 on their tickets.

Indeed. From their website: the MCard terms and conditions make absolutely no mention of cross boundary travel on their website. Clearly Cross Country have no basis in which to say that this combination is not valid.

 

[Bantamzen]

Thinking back to my days living in South Elmsall, I remember whenever I caught a GNER between Leeds & Wakefield, the guards always made a point of informing passengers on approach to Wakefield that Metrocards (as they were then) were not valid beyond there. And as this was 10-15 years ago, so its an issue that's been around for a long while.

Being a West Yorkshire PTE (Metro) product, I would imagine that it's acceptance on all trains is subject to negotiation with the TOCs, especially as in most cases MCards are not cross-boundary products but WY only (save the Zones 1-6 & 1-7) Therefore any restrictions are set by the TOCs and not by Metro. However as to whether these are legal in context of the NCoT, that's the fuzzy part with them being third party products that TOCs happen to accept. What is clear is that with the exception of Darton WY MCards cannot be used to cross any border of West Yorkshire by train. So at the very least someone travelling on any cross boundary service will have to have a valid ticket from the last station in West Yorkshire onwards.

I suppose whether or not TOCS like XC ought to be accepting MCards as part of a split-ticketed journey that included a split at a boundary station comes down to whether or not MCards are specifically covered by the NCoT or not. Its worth remembering at this point that the MCard TOCs do state quite clearly that they are not part of Delay Repay (although as has been pointed out TOCs may choose to pay anyway), so this added does seem to suggest that either there is a gap in the NCoT or that third party schemes such as MCard are not covered by them but their own separate TOCs.

 

[yorksrob]

Thinking back to my days living in South Elmsall, I remember whenever I caught a GNER between Leeds & Wakefield, the guards always made a point of informing passengers on approach to Wakefield that Metrocards (as they were then) were not valid beyond there. And as this was 10-15 years ago, so its an issue that's been around for a long while.

Being a West Yorkshire PTE (Metro) product, I would imagine that it's acceptance on all trains is subject to negotiation with the TOCs, especially as in most cases MCards are not cross-boundary products but WY only (save the Zones 1-6 & 1-7) Therefore any restrictions are set by the TOCs and not by Metro. However as to whether these are legal in context of the NCoT, that's the fuzzy part with them being third party products that TOCs happen to accept. What is clear is that with the exception of Darton WY MCards cannot be used to cross any border of West Yorkshire by train. So at the very least someone travelling on any cross boundary service will have to have a valid ticket from the last station in West Yorkshire onwards.

I suppose whether or not TOCS like XC ought to be accepting MCards as part of a split-ticketed journey that included a split at a boundary station comes down to whether or not MCards are specifically covered by the NCoT or not. Its worth remembering at this point that the MCard TOCs do state quite clearly that they are not part of Delay Repay (although as has been pointed out TOCs may choose to pay anyway), so this added does seem to suggest that either there is a gap in the NCoT or that third party schemes such as MCard are not covered by them but their own separate TOCs.

And yet the conditions of travel specifically state that zonal products are valid to be used in this way. What zonal products are there on the railway that aren't provided by third parties ?

But it goes beyond such technicalities to become a matter of trust. It is a perfectly logical and reasonable aspiration that a passenger who has shelled out a lot of money for a zonal ticket, shouldn't be made to pay twice for his journey when travelling beyond the boundary, just because of the vaguaries of the timetable or the franchising map. This should be true, whoever provides the ticket.

The fact that some TOC's can't even bring themselves to keep to the spirit of their conditions of travel, just so that they can screw a few more quid out of passengers, is the reason why no one trusts them.

And this from an industry that professes to believe in 'simplification' of fares. They've no interest in simplification, just what they can extort from passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

Also, given that journeys made on PTE products are also presumably included in Orcats etc, what justification do TOC's have for not accepting them. I'm presuming that Arriva XC are more than happy to take their share of fares between Leeds and Wakefield, for example, and as many of these journeys will be paid for by Metrocard holders, Metrocard holders will already be propping up Arriva XC's business.

 

[Bantamzen]

And yet the conditions of travel specifically state that zonal products are valid to be used in this way. What zonal products are there on the railway that aren't provided by third parties ?

But it goes beyond such technicalities to become a matter of trust. It is a perfectly logical and reasonable aspiration that a passenger who has shelled out a lot of money for a zonal ticket, shouldn't be made to pay twice for his journey when travelling beyond the boundary, just because of the vaguaries of the timetable or the franchising map. This should be true, whoever provides the ticket.

The fact that some TOC's can't even bring themselves to keep to the spirit of their conditions of travel, just so that they can screw a few more quid out of passengers, is the reason why no one trusts them.

And this from an industry that professes to believe in 'simplification' of fares. They've no interest in simplification, just what they can extort from passengers.

And herein lies the problem, technically WY zonal tickets are not TOC products but one that they accept by mutual agreement with the PTE. So do they legally come under the terms as set by the NCoT, i.e. TOCs should allow cross-boundary use as part of split on a none-stopping service, or as a third party product do the TOCs as set by the PTE override this as it is not owned by the TOCs? I don't disagree that they should, but could they be required to is the question?

I do seem to remember some rumblings many years ago about the acceptance of Metrocards on any long distance services, with the suggestion that TOCs were not happy about them being used as most journeys used with them are short distance commuter routes served by commuter operators & just clogging up capacity. This was in the days before the half-hourly Leeds-Kings Cross when these and the XC services were regularly held up at Leeds in the peaks as people piled onto them en masse.

 

[yorksrob]

And herein lies the problem, technically WY zonal tickets are not TOC products but one that they accept by mutual agreement with the PTE. So do they legally come under the terms as set by the NCoT, i.e. TOCs should allow cross-boundary use as part of split on a none-stopping service, or as a third party product do the TOCs as set by the PTE override this as it is not owned by the TOCs? I don't disagree that they should, but could they be required to is the question?

I do seem to remember some rumblings many years ago about the acceptance of Metrocards on any long distance services, with the suggestion that TOCs were not happy about them being used as most journeys used with them are short distance commuter routes served by commuter operators & just clogging up capacity. This was in the days before the half-hourly Leeds-Kings Cross when these and the XC services were regularly held up at Leeds in the peaks as people piled onto them en masse.

Reluctant to take the passengers, but happy to take their money.

This is where TOC's need to have their hands forced. One set of conditions explicitly covering all rail tickets.

Needless to say, if this situation was in London, it would have been sorted out years ago.

 

[Bantamzen]

Reluctant to take the passengers, but happy to take their money.

This is where TOC's need to have their hands forced. One set of conditions explicitly covering all rail tickets.

Needless to say, if this situation was in London, it would have been sorted out years ago.

Maybe in London, but then they have a more joined up system aided by the fact that no other PTEs share borders with them. Its another small argument for a Rail North that could better set & control the prices and conditions of zonal tickets, and have more clout than smaller bodies like Metro who have slowly be receding in their influence (as well as budgets).

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yet the conditions of travel specifically state that zonal products are valid to be used in this way. What zonal products are there on the railway that aren't provided by third parties ?

Rovers and Rangers are the main one where there is an obvious use case of wanting to purchase a separate ticket into the area covered from your actual origin.

 

[Clip]

Also, given that journeys made on PTE products are also presumably included in Orcats etc, what justification do TOC's have for not accepting them. I'm presuming that Arriva XC are more than happy to take their share of fares between Leeds and Wakefield, for example, and as many of these journeys will be paid for by Metrocard holders, Metrocard holders will already be propping up Arriva XC's business.

Surely anyone doing this journey would buy the cheaper rail only season?

Reluctant to take the passengers, but happy to take their money.

This is where TOC's need to have their hands forced. One set of conditions explicitly covering all rail tickets.

Id be careful what you wish for then because that could lead to abolishing PTE products completely

 

[55z]

West Yorkshire Combine Authority (Metro) can impose their own conditions on their own products and impose additional restrictions on their products (Metro cards, Day Rover tickets) just as Transport for London impose their conditions. So their products you can only use to tickets (products) to the last calling point within the county Leeds to Doncaster on LNER only to Wakefield Westgate as this is the last calling point in West Yorkshire, Leeds to Doncaster on Northern as far as South Elmsall. As far as the combined West Yorkshire timetable is concerned it is a shame it is no longer produced. It was a cost cutting measure by Metro as the TOC's have a requirement to produce paper based timetables and Northern have refused to produce a combined timetable for West Yorkshire.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I think the point missing here is that the zonal tickets are not valid beyond Wakefield
. Therefore if you have a ticket from the boundary station you are missing a ticket from there to Wakefield

 

[yorksrob]

West Yorkshire Combine Authority (Metro) can impose their own conditions on their own products and impose additional restrictions on their products (Metro cards, Day Rover tickets) just as Transport for London impose their conditions. So their products you can only use to tickets (products) to the last calling point within the county Leeds to Doncaster on LNER only to Wakefield Westgate as this is the last calling point in West Yorkshire, Leeds to Doncaster on Northern as far as South Elmsall. As far as the combined West Yorkshire timetable is concerned it is a shame it is no longer produced. It was a cost cutting measure by Metro as the TOC's have a requirement to produce paper based timetables and Northern have refused to produce a combined timetable for West Yorkshire.

Well, I believe it is unreasonable for them to go out of their way to disadvantage their own client base particularly when the National Conditions specifically allow zonal tickets.

Also the conditions of travel require a third party to explicitly state in their terms and conditions if you can't use an adjoining ticket without stopping, which they haven't done.

 

[johntea]

I've always thought this was the case, e.g. if I travel from Leeds to Sheffield with my 1-5 Metro I would have to buy my ticket depending on the service I catch :-

Northern Express or CrossCountry - Wakefield to Sheffield
Northern Stopper - Darton to Sheffield

 

[30907]

The Ts and Cs already linked start: "MCard is a smartcard designed for use within West Yorkshire." I think they could reasonably argue that a cross-boundary journey is not one "within West Yorkshire" and this covers them, whatever the NRCoT may say.
Whether this should be the case is another matter, but it has been the case as long as I can remember.

 

[yorksrob]

The Ts and Cs already linked start: "MCard is a smartcard designed for use within West Yorkshire." I think they could reasonably argue that a cross-boundary journey is not one "within West Yorkshire" and this covers them, whatever the NRCoT may say.
Whether this should be the case is another matter, but it has been the case as long as I can remember.

But one could equally argue that a point to point season ticket between points A and B is "designed for use between points A and B", however that doesn't stop it being allowed to be used between points A and C according to the conditions of travel.

There's also the political question of whether its desireable for Metro to provide worse terms and conditions to their constituents than those provided for all other passengers.

 

[Bantamzen]

But one could equally argue that a point to point season ticket between points A and B is "designed for use between points A and B", however that doesn't stop it being allowed to be used between points A and C according to the conditions of travel.

There's also the political question of whether its desireable for Metro to provide worse terms and conditions to their constituents than those provided for all other passengers.

The old Metrocard & new MCards are remarkably cheap for what they are. My Zones 1-3 costs £114.60 per month, my commute to Leeds alone would cost £136.50 per month not accounting for any buses I might use across Leeds each day, or the extra travel I use it for when not at work. So whatever financial deal is made between Metro & the TOCs (I assume they get at least a share of the sales money) probably doesn't come anywhere near what the TOCs might normally get from normal ticketing, so I imagine that they add stipulations like this to keep costs down. Therefore any change to the T&Cs might see MCard prices rise sharply to the detriment of most users.