Why are XC allowed to continue?

[GoneSouth]

The question which really needs to be asked is why aren't XC generating enough revenue to fund investment in longer and more frequent trains?
The trains I have seen across a number of different routes always well loaded, indeed excessively so in some cases which often deters repeat business. But if the trains are packed with advance saver fares, they are probably struggling to break even. They need to invest in more capacity with a premium product and try to make more from upselling and meal service. Not a full blow onboard kitchen, but an easily delivered meal suitable for a 4+ hour journey. They need to maximise revenue to be able to invest.

Packed with advance saver fares you say… no chance, they are the most expensive train operator out of the 9 I have used in the past year (peak fares to London not included). No bargains to be had on their network. Artificially managing demand with high pricing is the name of the game, that being much easier to do and less costly to the DafT!

Oh, and they have destroyed the Cardiff to Nottingham service, anybody tried to use that recently? Probably related to increasing the frequency between Birmingham and Nottingham, but the Cardiff end has been in meltdown throughout December.

Yet swathes of the network continue to perform well, notably the bits free of above mentioned government interference. The Elizabeth Line has been a triumph, London Overground works well and has also been a huge success story since it launched. On the DfT side there are many issues, but (eg) GA and C2C get a good write up. So the above statement is far too general and simplistic.

What exactly is there to be gained by saying “it’s a disgrace” without considering why the problems exist?

What you’ve described there is a network in and around London that performs well and not the rest of the country… TfW, TPE, Northern, XC etc.

Maybe the OP could have specified the network is a disgrace outside London!

For the record I don’t necessarily agree completely, I have managed to get to my destination using Northern and XC recently, cost to me, nothing thanks to delay repay!

 

[WAB]

Isn't the problem that the cost of lengthening services goes far beyond additional rolling stock, also involving depot alterations, more staff, different timetabling, platform capacity, changes to the services of other operators and other hidden factors, not just lease cost and some more diesel? Simply too much to contemplate as a big bang, hence the proposal to just add 35 extra carriages.

For example, another thread indicated a Voyager stabling at Holbeck overnight, citing the reason as insufficient capacity at Crofton depot. Extrapolate that across the network, and it is obvious why the changes to XC don't happen as easily as people think they should.

Are there many platform allocations in the LTP which require single units only? I appreciate stabling is a different kettle of fish though.

 

[Killingworth]

For the record I don’t necessarily agree completely, I have managed to get to my destination using Northern and XC recently, cost to me, nothing thanks to delay repay!

Damned with such faint praise!

An old friend is probably going to give up his car. With multiple medical issues, but still independently able to travel, he decided to visit friends in Northumberland travelling from Cheltenham. Direct train to Newcastle, taxis each end, easy? Forewarned about overcrowding he booked first class. Wow, eye watering cost.

Train only 4 coaches and totally rammed full. Delayed almost 3 hours but the uncertainty was as bad as the delay. Cup of tea? No chance. Catering absent. Return journey dreaded. It was little better.

He wrote a strong letter to the Chief Executive. Delayed repay for full return fare of course. Voucher for a free return trip on Cross Country is currently viewed as punishment, not reward. There is great reluctance to set foot on any more trains, ever, at any price.

We're both experienced travellers. I've visited him from Sheffield and discovered that split ticketing at Derby and Birmingham can almost halve the price. Playing musical chairs up and down the carriages to find reservations can be a pain. Seatfrog for first class can work well.

It's a comical way to arrange things and doesn't encourage occasional users to return more often. Use the car or stay at home.

 

[Starmill]

But if the trains are packed with advance saver fares, they are probably struggling to break even.

This isn't the case. Advance tickets on CrossCountry are very rarely competitively-priced for long-distance journeys. They can be for short hops though, especially where there's another public transport provider on the same flow.

Some of XC fares are eye watering, and for distances of any length, other options such as travelling by coach or flying are often far cheaper, as is going via London and using different operators. The trains are often packed too, so the shortfall in revenue has always puzzled me.

One factor could be that other operators run stations and are able to generate huge amounts of additional income from station car parking. XC gets no car parking revenue at all.

Car parking revenue is only a meaningful net gain at a small number of stations. Think Tonbridge, Gerrard Cross, Leighton Buzzard, Dorking Main, Farnborough Main, Luton... you get the picture.

TOCs don't exactly see much net revenue from ancillaries like car parking and advertising either because they've been outsourced to specialists who of course keep their cut.

 

[43066]

There is clearly a equilibrium point with a greater pax load / lower fares balance that the DfT should be aiming for. what they’ve actually done is reduce seat capacity further which can only lead to higher fares, but the fares are already essentially maxed out, so it’s a foolish strategy.

The extent of the current “strategy” is literally only to realise short term cost savings.. Nothing at all beyond that. They simply don’t care about the long term.

What you’ve described there is a network in and around London that performs well and not the rest of the country… TfW, TPE, Northern, XC etc.

Maybe the OP could have specified the network is a disgrace outside London!

For the record I don’t necessarily agree completely, I have managed to get to my destination using Northern and XC recently, cost to me, nothing thanks to delay repay!

There’s undoubtedly a north south railway divide, despite all the guff about levelling up.

 

[JonathanH]

Are there many platform allocations in the LTP which require single units only? I appreciate stabling is a different kettle of fish though.

Only really on the former Reading to Newcastle route - eg Reading P3, Doncaster P3B, Newcastle P9-11 and Birmingham East End. Not all trains use these short platforms but some still do.

In the past there was also Exeter P2 and double platforming at Manchester Piccadilly.

Some ECS workings have two units coupled to work different services, which is a valid, but perhaps more easily overcome issue.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Only really on the former Reading to Newcastle route - eg Reading P3, Doncaster P3B, Newcastle P9-11 and Birmingham East End. Not all trains use these short platforms but some still do.

In the past there was also Exeter P2 and double platforming at Manchester Piccadilly.

Some ECS workings have two units coupled to work different services, which is a valid, but perhaps more easily overcome issue.

Single-set working only west of Plymouth.

 

[Recessio]

I use them Reading-Banbury regularly and I don't think I've ever gotten a seat. Desperately needs either more trains or larger trains.

 

[WAB]

There is just no room for commercial nous in the current setup. Full-length trains and reasonably-priced advances would make a killing, but there probably isn't enough money to even reupholster the seats...

 

[Llanigraham]

They want a train to pick them up from A when it's meant to, and drop them off at B when it's meant to. And a lot of the time, the railway fails to achieve this.

Funny, but every train I have caught in the last 2 months have got me from A to B with very few problems or delays.

 

[MattSGB]

Cross-country have been making my blood boil for at least a decade now.

• The only operator I have ever used that has double booked my seat reservation (at least four times).
• The only operator that invariably wastes my time making me book five separate legs to the west country to reduce my ticket price by 50%, so that it is only moderately overpriced.
• The only operator with a reservation system that absolutely refuses to give me two seats facing each other at window table seats (it absolutely insists on booking one aisle seat and one window seat, so you sit diagonally to your companion and facing strangers).
• The only operator where the first class tickets are at least 3 times higher than my budget, which gets you a prepacked sandwich and a soft drink (if you are lucky).

Then there is a core of staff who have clearly picked up their customer service skills from the prison service. I'm not sure that the DfT micromanaging is 100% responsible for this pathetic failure of customer service.

 

[The Ham]

The question which really needs to be asked is why aren't XC generating enough revenue to fund investment in longer and more frequent trains?
The trains I have seen across a number of different routes always well loaded, indeed excessively so in some cases which often deters repeat business. But if the trains are packed with advance saver fares, they are probably struggling to break even. They need to invest in more capacity with a premium product and try to make more from upselling and meal service. Not a full blow onboard kitchen, but an easily delivered meal suitable for a 4+ hour journey. They need to maximise revenue to be able to invest.

The simplistic answer is that they need longer units (a 9 coach 221 would have the same seating capacity as a 5+5), in doing so it would mean that where trains were doubled up normally they'd save 10% in lease costs without missing any capacity.

They would also ease staffing complications (is it XC which require 1 staff per unit which isn't a driver?) as you'd only have one person doing first class catering on the 9 coach vs 2 on a 5+5 (or realistically 1, but only doing each half for about half the time).

The main problem to date has been the fact that the 22x's were too new to justify binning them, the 80x's were still being developed or delivered and there was a lack of other stock which could be used.

Arguably in 2025/26 they be 25 years old and so scraping them with 10 years (assuming a 35 year DMU design life) left in their design life probably isn't too bad (although maybe a bit less than 10 years buy the time a replacement is delivered). Especially if there was a need to do something major with the engines.

2025/26 would also mean that the 8xx orders should be fully delivered and so a follow on order for XC might be viable to be delivered over the following (say) 3 years (depending on if there's a need for further design developments).

 

[cslusarc]

Perhaps the 222s may be useful on Norwich to Liverpool

IMHO, could the class 222s be better off if exported?

 

[Topological]

As a semi-regular user of CrossCountry between Bristol Parkway and Manchester Piccadilly when TfW are having Marches issues, the service has always been within a few minutes of time and not overly crowded. Only at the Manchester end can southbound trains be busy, but that is due to the time I take them and the trains are nowhere near as bad as a TfW 150 for overcrowding.

The Cardiff to Nottingham train is something of a bigger issue though. I do notice how many fail to make the full journey. There was a move to have more 3 carriage trains on that route, but they seem to have more 2s again recently. Every now and then there is a 5 car though so that must be a better experience for travellers. I am not sure where all that leaves reservations, but the last one I took did not have the paper reservations out. Stansted trains seem to use labels, often they are placed out at Leicester then run on the slow Leicester to Birmingham which forms the subsequent Stansted. That is fun seeing people think the train is reserved when, to my knowledge, reservations are not given on that stopping Leicester to Birmingham train.

Undoubtedly more capacity would be good, especially to ensure that no single 4-car voyagers are showing up. 80x seem the obvious solution from the currently available stock, but hopefully with nicer interiors.

 

[Mark J]

I use them Reading-Banbury regularly and I don't think I've ever gotten a seat. Desperately needs either more trains or larger trains.

I used them on New Year's Day on that route. It was full and standing then!

 

[The Planner]

I used them on New Year's Day on that route. It was full and standing then!

That's because the south end of New St was shut and it required trains to go via Aston and Perry Barr. WMT don't sign Stechford Aston so Avanti and XC had to pick up the slack.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems that complaints about Cross Country more than doubled in latest ORR figures (table 2.2)

Also seriously missing the respond within 20 days (table 4.1) at 91.7% (most operators 100%)

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/5cci1h2z/passenger-rail-service-complaints-jul-sep-2023-24.pdf

XC also failed to deal with delay compensation promptly (table 2.1) of ORR delay report

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/zjwarxao/delay-compensation-claims-factsheet-2023-24-rail-periods-5-7.pdf

So clearly doing something badly wrong in customers opinion if complaints have skyrocketed.

 

[GoneSouth]

They’re all over the place with customer service. I’ve submitted delay repay claims that have taken over 6 weeks to process, but the last one was processed in 3 hours. It’s a lottery

 

[MattSGB]

They’re all over the place with customer service. I’ve submitted delay repay claims that have taken over 6 weeks to process, but the last one was processed in 3 hours. It’s a lottery

Same here, sometimes simple claims take weeks, but my last one was a complex five split ticket journey, for which I was entitled 50% compensation. It was approved in a day with 100% compensation.

 

[43OO4]

Given the recent talk of Avanti going OLR... Is it time XC went down the proverbial? I don't understand how people are mad at Avanti when I've had evenings at Reading where XC have cancelled at least three services back-to-back, or have otherwise started them at Basingstoke rather than the South Coast, and the ones that have run have been four cars. Short trains, a shortage of trains, but no shortage of excuses. It's time they bid their farewells.

 

[The Planner]

Given the recent talk of Avanti going OLR... Is it time XC went down the proverbial? I don't understand how people are mad at Avanti when I've had evenings at Reading where XC have cancelled at least three services back-to-back, or have otherwise started them at Basingstoke rather than the South Coast, and the ones that have run have been four cars. Short trains, a shortage of trains, but no shortage of excuses. It's time they bid their farewells.

Nothing would change with XC even with OLR.

 

[Topological]

Since this is in speculative, is there scope for the release of 80x from the South West local services to enable a greater GWR service between Reading and Birmingham? Banbury often comes up, but presumably to be useful the train needs to go to Birmingham. Could Moor Street handle 80x if New Street is not an option?

Certainly it seems the Reading to Birmingham corridor provides the greatest problems without any local alternative.

 

[43OO4]

By the logic I've seen, nothing would change with any operator under an OLR situation, and that simply isn't the case. XC run a below-skeleton standard of service, at least Avanti take pride in the "style" side of style versus substance, and at least over the past couple of weeks they've picked up their game dramatically. Even if it takes detraining and a set swap they'll run a service, whereas XC seem to resign themselves to the sorry state of affairs they're in. XC is unacceptable, and general consensus seems to be that, in their current form, unsalvageable. Either dissolve it and split it into its constituent areas (Greater Western, North Eastern, West Mids & North Western), or revoke their contract entirely and give it to a reputable operator such as MTR. It's barely a franchise and it's barely held together by red (or yellow, as the case may be!) tape.

 

[JonathanH]

By the logic I've seen, nothing would change with any operator under an OLR situation, and that simply isn't the case.

Can you give examples of what you think is going to change in an OLR situation for CrossCountry?

 

[43OO4]

Can you give examples of what you think is going to change in an OLR situation for CrossCountry?

Increase in funding as an arms-reach govt. entity rather than a private firm designed to maximise profits and minimise losses, leading to better staffing, reliable services, better fleet upkeep. XC is an example of cost cutting at its finest.

 

[Darandio]

Increase in funding as an arms-reach govt. entity rather than a private firm designed to maximise profits and minimise losses, leading to better staffing, reliable services, better fleet upkeep. XC is an example of cost cutting at its finest.

You're early, it's April 1st a week on Monday. It already is effectively an arms-reach govt. entity (as you put it), they all are.

 

[dk1]

Increase in funding as an arms-reach govt. entity rather than a private firm designed to maximise profits and minimise losses, leading to better staffing, reliable services, better fleet upkeep. XC is an example of cost cutting at its finest.

It’s the DfT that have held the whole XC operation back. OLR would make no difference to this franchise I’m afraid.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Increase in funding as an arms-reach govt. entity rather than a private firm designed to maximise profits and minimise losses, leading to better staffing, reliable services, better fleet upkeep. XC is an example of cost cutting at its finest.

Since 2020 XC has effectively been nationalised. The DfT pays all the costs and takes all the revenue. The DfT sets the budget, what stock is leased and agrees the staffing.

The TOC owner now only gets a relatively small management fee, which has a fixed element and a contract performance element. It does not currently get a share of any TOC “profit” and does not pay a share of any TOC “loss”.

There are now effectively two forms of the nationalised railway operations. The DfT either pays for former rail execs to sit on the TOC board (OLR) and they may change a few top managers when they takeover or it pays fees to an owning group to act as its managing agent (the rest of the DfT TOCs).

In both cases the TOCs work to an annual business plan which has to be agreed with the DfT, who are working to Treasury financial targets. Recently, this has resulted in cuts being prioritised rather than going for growth.

 

[mangyiscute]

The only feasible way to hope XC may improve is through a change in government, which should happen soon.

 

[JonathanH]

The only feasible way to hope XC may improve is through a change in government, which should happen soon.

Not exactly top of the list though for them is it, and any policy still needs to go through the DfT and Treasury for implementation.