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Why can Cambrian line only take 158s?

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wobman

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The 158 units run on level 0 outside the Cambrian, the VDU just displays the trains speed in mph. On the Cambrian the ertms is active/live and shows the speeds in kmh.

The onsaldo ertms on the 158's was very slow to boot up at the early stages of the installation, it was very unreliable aswell. Running in level 0 was part of the trial and is still slow to boot up whilst shunting units. Even putting the unit into shunt mode is slow whilst completing multiple changes of cabs shunting the 158's.

It's a shame the ertms can't be isolated outside the Cambrian as it's slow and cumbersome to use.

Portable equipment is a non starter according to people in the know, the system needs hardware fitted to the units running over the line. Maybe the next generation of ertms will be much improved.
 
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D6975

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LNW-GW Joint said:


Class 197s (the new TfW CAF fleet) will also be fitted with ETCS and deployed on the Cambrian.

Bletchleyite said:
Only the 2-car units, which is a pain as they could really do with 3-car on the Pwllheli portion in summer (as Central Trains used to do).


It's worse than that, only 21 of the 2 car units are to be fitted with ETCS. Unless that's been altered since the initial announcement.
 

Parallel

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Would it be possible to run a 150 or a 153, sandwiched between two ERTMS Class 158 units on the Cambrian line?
 

wobman

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Would it be possible to run a 150 or a 153, sandwiched between two ERTMS Class 158 units on the Cambrian line?
TFW won't risk anything other than the ertms 158's over the route, it's just not worth the risk or hassle.

No Mach or Pwhelli drivers sign anything other than the 158's and no other depots sign the Cambrian.

It's just not worth trying this for the problems that would happen if anything went wrong.
TFW are so short of units I doubt they can spare any to even try it.
 

tomuk

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Would it be possible to run a 150 or a 153, sandwiched between two ERTMS Class 158 units on the Cambrian line?
For the ECTS to work the length of the train needs to be known. I don't know if this is configured automatically when the 158s couple or if the driver inputs this. So this could be an issue if you sandwich units.
On the class 97 a preset train length is assumed, this can be annoying if running light engine or say hauling a short train like a tamper as the ETCS holds the speed limits until the whole train length has cleared the restriction.
 

krus_aragon

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It's worse than that, only 21 of the 2 car units are to be fitted with ETCS. Unless that's been altered since the initial announcement
Though the whole fleet (like most new-builds) is to be "compatible/ready", so can have the relevant equipment plugged in later as needed.

Not everyone knows that.
This forum is fantastic, but more and more people are forgetting basic manners and common courtesy.
Something may be considered common knowledge, but if it's not something we're born with, everyone needs to learn it for the first time at some point.

ten_thousand_2x.png


(Comic from https://xkcd.com/1053/ . Transcript here)
 

Llanigraham

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Would it be possible to run a 150 or a 153, sandwiched between two ERTMS Class 158 units on the Cambrian line?

According to a friend who worked Machy, yes but it would be very complicated by having to reprogramme to allow for the additional lenghths. As it is the system is only progrmammed for 2 or 4 car 158s. Anything is possible but it takes time (and money)
 

Llanigraham

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For the ECTS to work the length of the train needs to be known. I don't know if this is configured automatically when the 158s couple or if the driver inputs this. So this could be an issue if you sandwich units.
On the class 97 a preset train length is assumed, this can be annoying if running light engine or say hauling a short train like a tamper as the ETCS holds the speed limits until the whole train length has cleared the restriction.

The system is programmed to either 2 or 4 car units and that is all I understand the driver inputs.
Correct about the 97's, they run as a presumed length, which is only exceeded if the line is under a Possession.
 

krus_aragon

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According to a friend who worked Machy, yes but it would be very complicated by having to reprogramme to allow for the additional lenghths. As it is the system is only progrmammed for 2 or 4 car 158s. Anything is possible but it takes time (and money)
There's no 6-car services west of Shrewsbury, then? I thought there may have been some as far as Machynlleth.
 

PHILIPE

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There's no 6-car services west of Shrewsbury, then? I thought there may have been some as far as Machynlleth.

The last one down (2006 ex Birmingham) is booked to convey 6 on a Friday night to balance units up also 0930 ex Aberystwyth on a Sunday.
 

Llanigraham

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Yes, I checked with my friend over coffee this morning, and they can take a 6 car unit.
Apologies for the duff info.
 

JN114

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For the ECTS to work the length of the train needs to be known. I don't know if this is configured automatically when the 158s couple or if the driver inputs this.

My only experience is with the “modern” implementation of ETCS on the GWML, and I know the Cambrian is non-standard (and that’s why it is being upgraded to standard eventually) - but train length information will be input by driver on setup or “Start of Mission” as it’s actually referred to in the system.
 

craigybagel

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While I understand that only ERTMS fitted trains can go on the Cambrian, are the ERTMS fitted trains restricted on where they can go on the rest of the system because of their ERTMS kit. Or is it switched off at Shrewsbury and is, therefore, irrelevant?
Normally it remains switched on at all times, running as "level 0". Away from the Cambrian, the only real impact this has is that it limits the top speed of the train to either 90 or 75 depending on how the driver has set up the train.

ERTMS can be isolated if it's faulty, and there is an analogue speedometer fitted for this purpose, but once isolated it can only be reinstated by a fitter using a special key that drivers don't carry - so it is only carried out when necessary and when the unit won't be going on to the Cambrian.

There is also a well known issue at Wooferton. The transmitting station there is next to the Marches line and radio signals frequently interfere with ERTMS fitted 158s passing through, causing the system to fail and the emergency brakes to apply.

As a further illustration of the train equipment modifications for the Cambrian route, this illustration from an Arriva report in 2011 shows the additional components installed to a Class 158 52xxx car for ERTMS:
View attachment 102526
(showing the car side-on and the locations of equipment, namely:
  1. GSM-R Data antenna & GPS on roof over the inside-end vestibule,
  2. Eurocabinet, European Vital Computer, fans, GSM-R rack, and Juridical Recorder Unit installed in the saloon adjacent to the inside-end vestibule,
  3. GSM-R Voice antenna on the roof over the outer-end vestibule,
  4. Driver-Machine Interface and GSM-R radio installed in the cab,
  5. Dopper radar installed under the cab,
  6. Odometry sensor installed on the bearing box of the inner axle of the outer bogie,
  7. Balise antenna and Balise Transmission Module installed near the inner end of the outer bogie.)

And this pair of photographs from an RDG Guidance Note show the cabs of a Class 158 unit (at left) and a Class 97 locomotive (at right) with the ETCS Driver-Machine Interface screen retrofitted to the dashboard:
View attachment 102527
As well as the large work required in the cab, the 158s also have an entire cabinet in the saloon full of ERTMS equipment that takes up the space of 2 seats. It's definitely not portable!
For the ECTS to work the length of the train needs to be known. I don't know if this is configured automatically when the 158s couple or if the driver inputs this. So this could be an issue if you sandwich units.

There's no 6-car services west of Shrewsbury, then? I thought there may have been some as far as Machynlleth.

My only experience is with the “modern” implementation of ETCS on the GWML, and I know the Cambrian is non-standard (and that’s why it is being upgraded to standard eventually) - but train length information will be input by driver on setup or “Start of Mission” as it’s actually referred to in the system.
On the 158s, there are preset options for train formation that the driver can choose from. I can't remember how high up it goes but it's definitely at least as high as 6 car 158. There are also options for coupled to other 90mph stock, and coupled to 75mph stock; the latter option then reduces the speed limiter in level 0 from 90 to 75.
I u8nderstand that a driver has to be competent on a ETCS 158 in their own right even if the equipment is not actually in use. This came to light when some working arrangement required a Bristol GWR driver to work one. This means that all TFW 158 competent drivers other than Machynlleth and Pwllheli would require the this required knowledge. Perhaps a driver could confirm if I am correct or not please.
I believe this is indeed true. You can't drive more than 2 feet without setting up ERTMS (otherwise the emergency brakes will apply), and I'd be amazed if a driver not trained on it would be able to work out how to do it by themselves - it's a simple process to train, but it's not the most intuitive.
 

D365

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As stated by @Tomnick above, ERTMS requires a far larger amount of train-borne hardware than RETB does, and requires it be much more deeply integrated with other elements of the train. There is absolutely no possibility of making any more than a tiny subset of that equipment portable - and even if you were able to make it portable, it would only work on trains that had been fitted with all the other kit anyway.

There is a pilot project for fitting ETCS equipment to Tornado (and also the new-build P2, later on) as part of the conversion of the south end of the East Coast Main Line to ETCS operation. Experience gained in that process will inform owners as to the feasibility of fitting it to other mainline kettles.
Absolutely spot on.

As a brand new locomotive, Tornado being the first steam loco to be fitted makes a lot of sense. In some ways, it may be even easier than the BR diesels and electric locomotives, given that the A1 Trust should have access to computer (CAD) models.
 

krus_aragon

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Yes, I checked with my friend over coffee this morning, and they can take a 6 car unit.
Apologies for the duff info.
No worries: I've put my foot in it with inaccurate recollections more than once recently. As long as we get things sorted in the end, it's all fine. :)
 
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This is also why all the PSR (Permanent Speed Restriction) boards are white numerals on a black background - they are displayed in KMH
I discovered this after we passed an 80 board one day but only got up to about 50 MPH, and asked the driver whether there was a fault on the 158, alas it was a fault with my knowledge :lol:
 
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