Why do Class 57s scream?

[59CosG95]

Hi all,
I took the Night Riviera for the first time the other day (I know, long time waiting), and I was struck by how similar the engine sounds to that of the 66, with the exception of one thing-the scream. Could it be the alternator?

 

[richieb1971]

I am not mechanically minded but I recall most of the valenta HST's, 56's and other British traction relying on huge turbos and they tend to make the engine scream.

 

[TheEdge]

Is the 57 screaming because it is haunted by the souls of the cannibalised 47s within it?

 

[fgwrich]

Is the 57 screaming because it is haunted by the souls of the cannibalised 47s within it?

Post of the day! Especially 57303 - Ex 47705!

Hi all,
I took the Night Riviera for the first time the other day (I know, long time waiting), and I was struck by how similar the engine sounds to that of the 66, with the exception of one thing-the scream. Could it be the alternator?

The 57s are powered by the EMD 645-F3B series engine, which have more in common with Irish Rails 071 Class and our 59s than the 66s (powered by the EMD 710 Series). They are Turbocharged engines though, and the Alternators are refurbished from former Class 56s so any additional noise and screaming is likely to be a bit of both.

They're quite like the 071s really - albeit sadly a little silenced compared to their Irish cousins. You'd always be more likely to hear an 071 from the distance because of the rad fans though!

 

[Cowley]

I agree with The Edge.
It would be interesting to hear one less silenced though.

 

[fgwrich]

EMDs do sound quite interesting when they're not being silenced. Have you heard the EMD 710 in a 66 with no silencer before?

https://youtu.be/9gjV7WpoyLs

 

[Harbornite]

EMDs do sound quite interesting when they're not being silenced. Have you heard the EMD 710 in a 66 with no silencer before?

https://youtu.be/9gjV7WpoyLs

Good vid that, it does sound nice.

 

[Cowley]

EMDs do sound quite interesting when they're not being silenced. Have you heard the EMD 710 in a 66 with no silencer before?

https://youtu.be/9gjV7WpoyLs

That sounds a bit different! Thanks for that.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As someone who never got into Irish Rail perhaps someone can tell me how this DSB MZ compares to the IR 071 or "BR" 57. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYFe2qdAVOE Same power unit (EMD 645) but very likely different silencing.

 

[fgwrich]

As someone who never got into Irish Rail perhaps someone can tell me how this DSB MZ compares to the IR 071 or "BR" 57. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYFe2qdAVOE Same power unit (EMD 645) but very likely different silencing.

I'd say the first part sounds exactly like a 57. The second part - on powering up, sounds more like a 071. There's a certain almost whine the early EMD power units have that the 071s do as well.

Here's one of the 071s - not my video, I haven't had one for 3 years now!
https://youtu.be/uC1hCfdx09s

 

[co-tr-paul]

Hearing 57s every working day, can say a 57/3 has a deeper undertone to our 57/6s and very slightly louder.

 

[Cowley]

I'd say the first part sounds exactly like a 57. The second part - on powering up, sounds more like a 071. There's a certain almost whine the early EMD power units have that the 071s do as well.

Here's one of the 071s - not my video, I haven't had one for 3 years now!
https://youtu.be/uC1hCfdx09s

That's a really distinct GM sound then obviously. There's quite a deep down almost melodic tone to it which must be a family trait going back a long way.
I worked as an apprentice for British Road Services for about 18 months after I left school and they used to maintain all the Lynx delivery lorries. Among their fleet based in Exeter were a couple of Ford Cargo 17 ton (I think ) drop body chassis cabs with drawbars that were equipped with V8 2 stroke Detroit Diesel engines and they made a similar melodic sound and sounded totally different to anything else. They also fitted those engines to some Bedford TMs I think.
I don't know who else makes 2 stroke diesel engines, the class 28 was fitted with a 2 stroke Crossley engine and I personally can't wait to hear that, my Dad remembers them and says they were loud and smokey and made a kind of crackling noise!

 

[ac6000cw]

Going back a long way (to when I was a teenager in the late 1960s/early 1970s), Foden and Commer trucks and buses used 2-stroke diesels of their own design. In fact the Commer TS3 engines were derived from the same Jumo aero-engine technology as the Napier Deltic, being opposed-piston 2-strokes.

The GM (Detroit Diesel automotive and EMD rail/ship) two-stroke families started life with the Winton Engine Company, which (along with the Electro-Motive Company) were bought by GM in 1930 and effectively merged together as the 'Electro-Motive Division'. GM had been working on 2-stroke diesel designs, but decided they would get to market faster by buying expertise from someone else, so they 'bought the company' and the rest is history...

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I quite like the noise the 57s make (it's better than the 66s) and yes, the Irish 071s are much closer to a proper EMD 645 engine 'sound' because they have less silencing.

But if you want a comparison with the 'real thing', enjoy the noise of four V16 645-E3 at full throttle (from 01:35 onwards) here - https://youtu.be/4u5Np9zl4TE

[youtube]4u5Np9zl4TE[/youtube]

(If you watch from the beginning, the loud squealing/screaming noise as the two GEs go past is 'controlled wheelslip' in action on wet rails. The EMD pushers also slip a little in the same place - just to show you they are working hard lifting maybe 15,000 tons of train up the hill . The people on the footbridge were a group of enthusiasts from the UK enjoying the show - I just happened to be there at the same time).

 

[Cowley]

That certainly is impressive. Thanks for that. I must admit I didn't really know about the history of EMD.
I've looked on YouTube of clips of 071s before and thought they sounded quite nice, when the 59s first came over I did a trip to Westbury to see them and they looked and sounded so different to anything else.

 

[ac6000cw]

That certainly is impressive. Thanks for that. I must admit I didn't really know about the history of EMD.
I've looked on YouTube of clips of 071s before and thought they sounded quite nice, when the 59s first came over I did a trip to Westbury to see them and they looked and sounded so different to anything else.

If you took the big silencer off a 59, it should sound roughly the same as an American SD40-2. They are very similar under the skin, the 59 has a slightly more powerful engine (16-645-E3C), same traction motors, but no dynamic (electric) braking equipment to make room for the silencer . They are much lighter as well - 126 versus 167 tonnes.

The 66s have no US near-equivalent - they would be too 'lightweight' for that market, even if ballasted up to 167 tonnes.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

An interesting discussion all round. I have tended to be a little non-plussed by EMD powered locos: plenty of noise but highly variable in interesting "thrash". This is probably due to my earliest experience of them being Belgian 62 class locos; they were easy to get at one time, especially around Gent, but to me they sounded like very large hairdryers ie boring. And the much loved (apparently) Nohab types (DSB MX & MY, NSB Di6, MAV M61) to me were just as bad. All of these had the EMD 567 engine.

Yet I eventually came across some monstrous sounding GMs in Croatia (esp 2062s) and the DSB MZs, and even our own 57s, are quite interesting.

But the more recent EMD 710 engines don't have quite the same "attack" to their sound. The video linked upthread suggests that unsilenced the 710 would sound rather more appealing. I guess it shows just how much impact the silencing has on the nature of the sound emissions.

 

[ac6000cw]

Those Croatian 2062s are the EMD G26 design, using a Roots-blown V16 645 engine, so I'm not surprised they sound 'monstrous'. The non-turbo (Roots-blown) EMD engines always sound much more interesting to me (I'm not a great fan of turbo-charger noise). The old Irish 141/181 locos with Roots-blown V8 567s sounded good too. The modern 710 engines tend to make a loud humming noise, overlaid with turbo whistling and general fan roar - nothing like as interesting.

Compared to the 710s, I'll take a big four-stroke any day - listen to the deep rumble and bark of a pair of GE V12s in probably notch 3-4 (out of 8) from around 4:52 here - https://youtu.be/lyBWoOZg0cI?t=292 or notching up slowly from about 11:22 here - https://youtu.be/oJRV_tmfcys?t=682 (those GE ES44 locos are probably my favourite big diesels - the noise they make positively exudes 'brute force'...just wish the class 70s sounded like that...)

 

[Highland37]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zen6JvBI1r0

This is a great video which has the same engine as the Class 57?

 

[ac6000cw]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zen6JvBI1r0

This is a great video which has the same engine as the Class 57?

It's not the same engine (the SD40-2 uses a V16 645-E3. The 57/0 uses a V12 645-E3, 57/3 & 57/6 a more powerful V12 645-F3B), but they are from the same EMD 645 series engine family. See here for the 'family details' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_645

(The '645' is the displacement per cylinder in cubic inches. Complete engines were produced in V8, V12, V16 and V20 versions. The V16 is the most common version used in EMD locomotives).

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For static engine noise videos, try this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga5G9C65uQ0 (it's a GE ES44 on full load self-test, dumping its 'Notch 8' 4400hp into the dynamic brake resistor bank).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

For static engine noise videos, try this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga5G9C65uQ0 (it's a GE ES44 on full load self-test, dumping its 'Notch 8' 4400hp into the dynamic brake resistor bank).

Nearest I've ever come to that was an open day at Thornaby depot. Outside the shed was a road with a load-bank, basically a bunch of large resistors in a container-like cabin. On this day they hooked up a class 37 and periodically opened it up all the way, great fun as it was like window-hanging for thrash without worrying about trees, bridges, wind, etc. And somewhere in my video collection is footage of the same exercise with a class 56. Memories...!

 

[ac6000cw]

Last year when I was at the DRS Crewe open day, they were notching up one of the (then new) 68s periodically - much to the pleasure of the assembled diesel-heads . Since the 68s have dynamic braking - up to 2100 kW capacity - I wonder if they have the same capability for self load testing and it was being used then ?

 

[fgwrich]

Those loadbank units are quite impressive - as is a loco running at full chat on one. I was lucky enough to see 47841 on one a few years ago and a odd 57 or two in Eastleigh Works. There is at least one out there that's said to have the internal gubbins of an early AC Loco - 83/85 I think.

 

[ac6000cw]

There is at least one out there that's said to have the internal gubbins of an early AC Loco - 83/85 I think.

I'm pretty sure BR had one (converted early AC loco) that was used for load testing of AC OHLE, so maybe it's still around in some form or other.

But yes, it makes you think about energy and power when a loco like that GE in the video is standing there converting 3.3 MW of power into heat... 3300 one-bar electric fires lined up along the yard anyone ?

 

[Cowley]

The load bank loco was I think 84009 but was eventually scrapped in the 90s

 

[DarloRich]

Were the locomotive based mobile load bank designed to test OHLE rather than locomotives?

Was one not a converted class 84 in BR days and were there not a couple of 86/9 in NR yellow for similar duties.

 

[Cowley]

Were the locomotive based mobile load bank designed to test OHLE rather than locomotives?

Was one not a converted class 84 in BR days and were there not a couple of 86/9 in NR yellow for similar duties.

Sorry yes, didn't mean to put load bank, you're right.

 

[ac6000cw]

The ex-84009 became ADB968021 (picture from Wikipedia):

According to Wikipedia, the two NR 86/9s have been withdrawn and sold for scrap.

 

[Harbornite]

The ex-84009 became ADB968021 (picture from Wikipedia):

According to Wikipedia, the two NR 86/9s have been withdrawn and sold for scrap.

I've never seen a pic of an AC in that livery before!

Just to add some extra info, the scrapyard is booths of Rotherham and the two locos might still be intact, though slowly deteriorating.

 

[Freightmaster]

...or notching up slowly from about 11:22 here - https://youtu.be/oJRV_tmfcys?t=682 (those GE ES44 locos are probably my favourite big diesels - the noise they make positively exudes 'brute force'...

I'm a bit dubious about that last one - the cab markings clearly show that
the loco has been fitted with a BOSE sound system to enhance the bass!


MARK

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Not a class 37 but....

https://youtu.be/ex4HAZEQ4UQ