Why do ferry services not seem to work in the UK?

[The exile]

Tunnels are another option. For example, Shetland Island Council are planning to replace 4 key ferry routes with tunnels, as has already been done in similar settings in the Lofoten Islands (Norway) and the Faeroe Islands. See article

Indeed - I was thinking about inland river crossings where anything that would justify the expense of a tunnel as opposed to a bridge is unlikely still to be reliant on a ferry alone. Shortish island hops where weather and sea conditions come into play are much more likely to be tunnel territory.

 

[markymark2000]

The Harwich/Shotley/Felixstowe ferry appears to be functionally useless for the casual passenger.
The first time that I attempted to use it, it was fully booked in as it had apparently been three days in advance. The skipper was almost rolling on the floor laughing that I wasn’t aware and explained that there was a mobile phone number (not obviously displayed).
The second attempt was met with a shrug. “We’re not operating today because we’re operating a non-landing see-the-ships cruise.”

Wow, that's really bad and I think confirms my point that it's not really seen as public transport. In this case, makes it difficult for the casual passenger and above all else happy to cancel the ferry as soon as a better opportunity comes along. No care in the world for the fact they provide a public transport service. Imagine if Avanti cancelled all their trains so they could do a 390 railtour, there would be uproar. I see no difference here. Cancelling key public transport links to make a quick buck on a tour.

Interesting only the Dartmouth Higher Ferry appears to be listed. There is the Lower Ferry run by the council and the passenger ferry from the pontoon operated by the Dart Valley Railway. This does run all year and not just when the Paighton to Dartmouth line is in operation. It is also close to the bus stops in both Dartmouth and Kingswear thus one might think it would appear on Bus Times.

Also interesting to note that Northlink is included that is a short sea ferry as opposed to river / esturine / coastal. However, other such services on the Irish Sea are not included even though some have bus links or operate from near bus stops.

The data in bustimes.org, for ferries at least, is all what local authorities have put into the Traveline database. IF Local authorities don't put the data into Traveline, Traveline can't send that data out to any journey planning site (meaning the data is also missing from Google Maps and other sites). Traveline Scotland input ferry data for Northlink because those ferries are a key part of Scotlands Public Transport network. Traveline Scotland are quite good with this sort of thing albeit they have said that they input data just by scraping off the ferry operators websites and so there can sometimes be incorrect data if the ferry company has a wrong website.

In general a ferry service is a niche “last resort”. To be economically viable it needs a steady (and fairly large) stream of customers, but once that gets above a certain level then a bridge is a more practical solution - given that with the exception of estuaries we have very few rivers that are too wide to bridge “easily”. Add to that the fact that a river crossable only by ferry limits the development of natural traffic flows.

I think there are plenty of places where a bridge wouldn't be viable and there could be a steady stream of customers if the routes were promoted properly. I don't think there will ever be bridges over Windermere yet there is minimal promotion at all of the ferries there other than for the big tourist routes (Fell Foot promotion is dismal. Bowness - Ash Landing isn't much better either). Fleetwood - Knott End again, you're unlikely to know of it unless you specifically search for it as despite being funded by Lancashire County Council, the council won't put it on Traveline.

 

[JGurney]

I think one cause of the decline of foot ferries is the spread of the car: when people routinely walked between neighbouring villages or into market towns then a rowing boat ferry over the intervening river was attractive if it saved a mile or so of diversion to a bridge. The motorist today has no use for a foot ferry, so unless they link up with bus or train services they only get used for very local journeys or by hikers (and ferry enthusiasts).
Another is the disappearance of the people who lived in cheap riverside cottages, had a rowing boat, and made a living (just about) through a mixture of ferrying, fishing, fowling and rush-gathering. The riverside cottages went from being the cheapest (as they were damp and kept getting flooded) to the most expensive.

I found an old list of English ferries which I complied in 2017 for the Cyclists Touring Club website. It was incomplete then, and probably out of date now. It deliberately omitted services which ran along rivers rather than across them, such as pleasure trips along the Thames.

"English ferries from my own knowledge:

Cornwall:
Penzance - St Mary's
Scilly Isles inter-island ferries
Helford Passage
Falmouth - St Mawes
Falmouth - Flushing
Falmouth - Mylor
Falmouth - Truro
St Mawes - St Anthony
Trelissick - Philleigh (King Harry Ferry)
Padstow - Rock
Fowey - Boddinnick
Torpoint - Plymouth
Cremyll - Plymouth

Devon:
(Plymouth ferries as above)
Bigbury - Bantham
Salcombe - East Portlemouth
Dartmouth ferries (2)
Starcross - Exmouth
Lundy ferry

Dorset:
Sandbanks ferry.

Hampshire:
Lymington - Yarmouth
Southampton - Hythe
Southampton - Cowes
East Cowes - West Cowes
Portsmouth - Ryde
Portsmouth - Fishbourne
Portsmouth - Gosport
Southsea - Ryde (hovercraft)
Hamble - Warsash
Hayling Island - Southsea

Bristol:
Gas Street ferry

Surrey
Weybridge - Shepperton
Molesey - Hampton

London:
(Hampton as above)
Twickenham ferry
Woolwich ferry

Kent / Essex:
Tilbury - Gravesend

Norfolk:
Reedham ferry

Shropshire:
Hampton Lode ferry

Cumbria:
Windermere ferry
Ambleside - Bowness - Lakeside
Lakeside - Fell Foot

Tyne & Wear:
Shields ferry"

Other contributors added:

Devon also

Instow to Appledore (Torridge Estuary)
Plymouth Barbican to Mount Batten Park (River Plym)
Wembury Point to Newton Ferrers and Noss Mayo (River Yealm)
Shaldon to Teignmouth (River Teign)
Turf/Topsham (River Exe)
Topsham Ferry (River Exe)

Suffolk:
Butley
Walberswick,
Southwold
Bawdsey,
Harwich - Shotley - Felixstowe

Norfolk:
Kings Lynn - West Lynn

Since this 2017 list I have become aware of only one more - the Sunbury ferry over the Thames in Surrey.

• I bet you didn't know about the Thelwall or Little Hulme ferries? Most people don't because they aren't advertised by the company (who only operate them due to old laws) and no one will put them on Traveline.

Quite right, I hadn't. Thanks for posting about them.

 

[Howardh]

Is he old passenger ferry across the Manchester Ship Canal still working? Too small for cars and possibly bicycles too, but one little journey I'd have loved to have taken. One of my faves though is Fleetwood-Knott End, go when the tides in, takes longer and more value for money!!

 

[SynthD]

• Wandsworth Bridge to Lambeth Bridge – 25 knots
• Thames Barrier area – 15 knots
• St Saviour’s Dock (east of Tower Bridge) to Margaret Ness – 30 knots

These are the speed limits the Thames Clippers have, higher than the standard Port of London Authority rules. 30 knots certainly makes a difference, it’s worth seeking out a journey in that section east of Tower.

 

[AndrewE]

Is he old passenger ferry across the Manchester Ship Canal still working? Too small for cars and possibly bicycles too, but one little journey I'd have loved to have taken. One of my faves though is Fleetwood-Knott End, go when the tides in, takes longer and more value for money!!

I have done this, but beware that at extreme low tides it doesn't run at all! I find that the timetable is only availabe to people who are able or prepared to log in to Facebook https://www.facebook.com/FleetwoodtoKnottEndFerry/ ... disgraceful!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is he old passenger ferry across the Manchester Ship Canal still working? Too small for cars and possibly bicycles too, but one little journey I'd have loved to have taken.

If you mean the one between Irlam and Flixton (a.k.a. the "Hulmes Ferry"), believe so, and what's more, it's free! Think it only operates on Fridays, Saturdays + Sundays.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The Shields ferry in various forms has been operating continuously across the Tyne for around 650 years! Wikipedia passenger numbers albeit from a 2012 reference suggest it carries an average of 20 passengers per crossing, avoiding a several mile diversion through the Tyne Tunnels, the bridges of Newcastle or the Metro. £5m has just been found by Nexus to refurbish the North jetty and secure its future a little longer. I've no doubt it has needed a significant subsidy from the PTE for decades now, but it soldiers on!

The car ferry service existed until 1968 when the Tyne Tunnel opened but two remain for foot and cycle passengers.

 

[Howardh]

If you mean the one between Irlam and Flixton (a.k.a. the "Hulmes Ferry"), believe so, and what's more, it's free! Think it only operates on Fridays, Saturdays + Sundays.

Thanks. Park your car up, go to the ferry, go across - "Oh, I'm not coming back, I finish at five..."!!!

 

[6Gman]

If you mean the one between Irlam and Flixton (a.k.a. the "Hulmes Ferry"), believe so, and what's more, it's free! Think it only operates on Fridays, Saturdays + Sundays.

Does the Woolston (Warrington) foot ferry still operate? And what about the similar foot ferry on the Dee at Chester (upstream of the immediate city centre)?

And, staying in Cheshire, there's the Audlem to Overwater Marina service!

 

[Howardh]

Took me 65 years to learn that you didn't have to walk way beyond Bowness to get the vehicle ferry; there's one passenger service from Bowness itself! However, think it's a lot more expensive, and part of a "cruise"?

 

[markymark2000]

I have done this, but beware that at extreme low tides it doesn't run at all! I find that the timetable is only availabe to people who are able or prepared to log in to Facebook https://www.facebook.com/FleetwoodtoKnottEndFerry/ ... disgraceful!

Seems like they could do with one of the duckmarine style vehicles that currently operates tours in Windsor and now in Liverpool so then it can operate on land and water. People can't use the ferry for jobs or education or make any meaningful plans. 'I'm sorry, I can't come and visit you today, the tides out so I can't get there till late on'.

Is he old passenger ferry across the Manchester Ship Canal still working?

If you mean the one between Irlam and Flixton (a.k.a. the "Hulmes Ferry"), believe so, and what's more, it's free! Think it only operates on Fridays, Saturdays + Sundays.

Thelwall and the Hulmes ones both run. Operated by Bilway Marine. Sadly underadvertised, the website isn't upto date either and they don't reply to emails. Perfect mix to show how unloved these ferries are.

Manchester Ferry Service | Bilway Marine Ltd

We proudly support a Manchester ferry service, established in 1885 and still in full operation! Find out details or call Bilway Marine Ltd today.

www.bilwaymarineltd.co.uk

And what about the similar foot ferry on the Dee at Chester (upstream of the immediate city centre)?

Yes the Sandy Lane Foot Ferry remains but it's very limited and the only source of information of it's existence is the councils website at the bottom of the Aquapark page and occasional social media posts (given the amount of social posts from the council, the occasional post about a ferry is easily missed). The ferry is ran in conjunction with ChesterBoat who run the boat trips. You'd never know though as ChesterBoat makes no mention on their website about it other than a 2019 job post.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does the Woolston (Warrington) foot ferry still operate? And what about the similar foot ferry on the Dee at Chester (upstream of the immediate city centre)?

Sorry, not really my normal patch. Anyone else know?

 

[John Luxton]

Took me 65 years to learn that you didn't have to walk way beyond Bowness to get the vehicle ferry; there's one passenger service from Bowness itself! However, think it's a lot more expensive, and part of a "cruise"?

I think you are referring to the old railway service steamers Lakeside - Bowness - Ambleside.

Still running with the two ships built for the LMS - SWAN and TEAL and also the older TERN a new vessel the SWIFT was built in 2020.

Was owned by Sea Containers for quite a while following the Sealink acquisition. SeaCo sold out shortly before buying a majority interest in the Isle of Man Steam Packet mid 1990s.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think another story is the relative lack of inter-island ferry services in the British Isles.

Obviously, some of these will have been affected by the rise of low-cost flights, but a route like, e.g., Heysham to Belfast would be more easily accessible from the M6 than Birkenhead, and could potentially shorten goods transit times from mainland Europe to NI with a faster ferry.

I'd also question why there aren't more longer distance overnight freight ferries from Scotland and north-eastern England to the continent, facilitating drivers taking a rest period as the ferry sails, and thus able to drive further once they reach continental Europe, or vice versa.

These could also provide a limited foot passenger capacity (max. 50 berths), as an alternative for passengers who prefer avoiding flying, or need to travel overnight due to time constraints.

 

[signed]

and could potentially shorten goods transit times from mainland Europe to NI with a faster ferry.

Shipping companies do not care about speed, unless it's by air.

A faster boat takes up more fuel and so is costlier to operate (they are voluntarily slowing down all container ships around the world to save fuel)

 

[AlastairFraser]

Shipping companies do not care about speed, unless it's by air.

A faster boat takes up more fuel and so is costlier to operate (they are voluntarily slowing down all container ships around the world to save fuel)

I was thinking more British Isles - Europe goods transit, not worldwide services that you generally use containers on.
I accept your point about fuel, I expect electric propulsion to help sort this issue (although some time off for commercial shipping I admit - probably at least 15 years.)

 

[JGurney]

Shipping companies do not care about speed, ....

A faster boat takes up more fuel and so is costlier to operate

True, but a faster boat can make more crossings per day or week and so bring in more fare revenue for the same staff costs. That may outweigh higher fuel costs.

 

[John Luxton]

Obviously, some of these will have been affected by the rise of low-cost flights, but a route like, e.g., Heysham to Belfast would be more easily accessible from the M6 than Birkenhead, and could potentially shorten goods transit times from mainland Europe to NI with a faster ferry.

Heysham to Belfast was briefly operated seasonally by the Isle of Man Steam Packet using fast craft for several years when in Sea Containers ownership and on the three occasions seemed to be well used by foot passengers and cars.

Stena run a freight service only carrying truck drivers Heysham to Belfast. They have ordered new ships but only with freight driver accommodation.

Seatruck did take limited numbers of passengers with cars until early 2023 when the company was acquired by CLdN when it was announced all Seatruck routes would be freight only.

Birkenhead does appear to be well used, much larger ships can use Birkenhead compared to Heysham which has various issues at low water particularly with deeper draught vessels as the Isle of Man Steam Packet have found out.

The big disappointment with Birkenhead is that whilst Stena has reopened the Birkenhead to Dublin route this year they are not taking passengers and are using a chartered in freighter BORE SONG.

That means there are no passenger ferry services to Dublin from Merseyside since P&O withdrew their car service at the end of last year. It's either train to Holyhead or the plod along the A55 which is becoming a notorious route for all sorts of incidents on almost a daily basis which lead to long delays.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Has there ever been a vehicle ferry across the Bristol Channel between South Wales and the south-western peninsula?
When I worked at Taunton Deane MSA I noticed a large proportion of Welsh accents among holidaymakers, and having to drive inland to Bristol to access the M5 would seem to me to be a bit of a pain. Certainly in the years before the M5 and the Severn Bridge(s) were completed, a ferry from Cardiff or Swansea to Barnstaple/Ilfracombe or the Bude area would have saved many hours of bumper-to-bumper traffic on the A38. Though I suppose the lack of quality roads in North Devon and Cornwall would create problems too. Particularly as a ferry would dump c.200 cars onto those roads at once, as opposed to the A30 and A38 which distribute the traffic more evenly... and only those heading to specific resort towns would need to use a particular stretch of windy A and B road.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Obviously, some of these will have been affected by the rise of low-cost flights, but a route like, e.g., Heysham to Belfast would be more easily accessible from the M6 than Birkenhead, and could potentially shorten goods transit times from mainland Europe to NI with a faster ferry.

There are several freight only routes from Heysham. Seatruck operate Heysham-Warrenpoint and Heysham-Dublin, and Stena operate Heysham-Belfast.

I'm surprised that there isn't a passenger ferry from Heysham to Belfast given that Cairnryan is such an awful place to get to from England. But there are length and draft restrictions at Heysham which may have an impact, as the Isle of Man Steam Packet have discovered with the Manxman.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Heysham to Belfast was briefly operated seasonally by the Isle of Man Steam Packet using fast craft for several years when in Sea Containers ownership and on the three occasions seemed to be well used by foot passengers and cars.

Stena run a freight service only carrying truck drivers Heysham to Belfast. They have ordered new ships but only with freight driver accommodation.

Seatruck did take limited numbers of passengers with cars until early 2023 when the company was acquired by CLdN when it was announced all Seatruck routes would be freight only.

Birkenhead does appear to be well used, much larger ships can use Birkenhead compared to Heysham which has various issues at low water particularly with deeper draught vessels as the Isle of Man Steam Packet have found out.

The big disappointment with Birkenhead is that whilst Stena has reopened the Birkenhead to Dublin route this year they are not taking passengers and are using a chartered in freighter BORE SONG.

That means there are no passenger ferry services to Dublin from Merseyside since P&O withdrew their car service at the end of last year. It's either train to Holyhead or the plod along the A55 which is becoming a notorious route for all sorts of incidents on almost a daily basis which lead to long delays.

That's a big shame about Stena and Seatruck, perhaps they can be convinced to take limited number of passengers again. I agree that Holyhead is an awkward place to reach, at the best of times.

There are several freight only routes from Heysham. Seatruck operate Heysham-Warrenpoint and Heysham-Dublin, and Stena operate Heysham-Belfast.

I'm surprised that there isn't a passenger ferry from Heysham to Belfast given that Cairnryan is such an awful place to get to from England. But there are length and draft restrictions at Heysham which may have an impact, as the Isle of Man Steam Packet have discovered with the Manxman.

Heysham to Warrenpoint would be a very useful route to have a dual passenger-freight route in particular, the border region around Louth/Armagh/Monaghan/Down doesn't have particularly good connections from Great Britain by air or sea.

How difficult would it be to upgrade Heysham port to support larger ships?

 

[Tetchytyke]

How difficult would it be to upgrade Heysham port to support larger ships?

It'd be possible, of course it would be, but it would be very expensive. Realistically I can't see Peel Holdings spending the money without a customer and I can't see any of the ferry companies wanting to be that customer.

Manxman is pretty much at the maximum size that Heysham can accept and at low tide or in strong winds it does sometimes struggle to get berthed.

Manxman is 133m long. For comparison, the e-Flexers which sail Liverpool-Belfast are 215m long and the two Superfast ferries which sail Cairnryan-Belfast are 203m long.

For car passengers, which is where the passenger traffic really is, Heysham could make sense for Belfast. From the north and east of Liverpool it is easier to get to than Birkenhead, especially since the new road bypassing Lancaster was opened. But if it was a untapped gold mine I'm sure someone would have tried it and kept at it. I'm not sure there would be enough traffic to justify service from both Heysham and Birkenhead and the sailing time to Birkenhead is about the same as it would be to Heysham.

Beyond that, the real issue is that ferries are slow. The E-Flexers do about 20kn in service. Even when the A55 is snarled up all the way to Holyhead, chances are that the average speed by road will exceed 23mph. So you may as well drive to Holyhead and get the ferry from there.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It'd be possible, of course it would be, but it would be very expensive. Realistically I can't see Peel Holdings spending the money without a customer and I can't see any of the ferry companies wanting to be that customer.

Manxman is pretty much at the maximum size that Heysham can accept and at low tide or in strong winds it does sometimes struggle to get berthed.

Manxman is 133m long. For comparison, the e-Flexers which sail Liverpool-Belfast are 215m long and the two Superfast ferries which sail Cairnryan-Belfast are 203m long.

For car passengers, which is where the passenger traffic really is, Heysham could make sense for Belfast. From the north and east of Liverpool it is easier to get to than Birkenhead, especially since the new road bypassing Lancaster was opened. But if it was a untapped gold mine I'm sure someone would have tried it and kept at it. I'm not sure there would be enough traffic to justify service from both Heysham and Birkenhead and the sailing time to Birkenhead is about the same as it would be to Heysham.

Beyond that, the real issue is that ferries are slow. The E-Flexers do about 20kn in service. Even when the A55 is snarled up all the way to Holyhead, chances are that the average speed by road will exceed 23mph. So you may as well drive to Holyhead and get the ferry from there.

Interesting. Do you think a smaller fast ferry would work to compensate for the issues at Heysham, plus the slow sailing times? Maybe a twice daily daytime service, and then one service at night time.

 

[The exile]

Has there ever been a vehicle ferry across the Bristol Channel between South Wales and the south-western peninsula?
When I worked at Taunton Deane MSA I noticed a large proportion of Welsh accents among holidaymakers, and having to drive inland to Bristol to access the M5 would seem to me to be a bit of a pain. Certainly in the years before the M5 and the Severn Bridge(s) were completed, a ferry from Cardiff or Swansea to Barnstaple/Ilfracombe or the Bude area would have saved many hours of bumper-to-bumper traffic on the A38. Though I suppose the lack of quality roads in North Devon and Cornwall would create problems too. Particularly as a ferry would dump c.200 cars onto those roads at once, as opposed to the A30 and A38 which distribute the traffic more evenly... and only those heading to specific resort towns would need to use a particular stretch of windy A and B road.

In the days before the Severn Bridge (and Beeching) most holidaymakers would have arrived by train!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

P. A. Campbell - 'White Funnel' fleet - ran passengers services (but not for cars) across the Bristol Channel up to 1979. Sailings from Penarth / Barry to Ilfracombe, Watchet, Clevedon etc. M.V. 'Balmoral' is preserved, offering occasional trips.

 

[Howardh]

If you could wave a magic wand, where would you put a passenger ferry, and car ferry?

Up here, passenger at least, Fleetwood and Barrow (an argument for a car ferry?). Not sure but if memory served wasn't there once a hovercraft service between Southport and Lytham? Passenger ferry would be out as the tide almost never reaches the shore so boats can't dock.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not sure but if memory served wasn't there once a hovercraft service between Southport and Lytham?

Believe you're right. Operated only from May 1973 to September 1973, or thereabouts, so was fairly short-lived. Apparently it only ever ran at around half capacity.


(Pic of the timetable for the one-time Hovertravel service between Southport and Squires Gate (Blackpool)).

 

[Howardh]

Believe you're right. Operated only from May 1973 to September 1973, or thereabouts, so was fairly short-lived. Apparently it only ever ran at around half capacity.

View attachment 163545
(Pic of the timetable for the one-time Hovertravel service between Southport and Squires Gate (Blackpool)).

Thanks, glad my marbles are still intact!

Wonder if such a service could be profitable today, purely as a tourist attraction? On saying that, I believe that hovercraft are costly to maintain and run, parts difficult to obtain, although the still "fly" across the Solent. Maybe those smaller ones could make money?

I'm sure Southport's beach has been used for light aircraft, and maybe when small-seater aircraft are electric there could be a service - purely for the tourist pound - of pleasure flights circling the Ribble Estuary and calling at both Lytham and Southport?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Do you think a smaller fast ferry would work to compensate for the issues at Heysham, plus the slow sailing times?

Highly unlikely. To go at 30 knots burns 2-3 times as much fuel as 20 knots, which is why the two Stena Superfast ferries usually only pootle around at 20 knots.

If you want to travel quickly you'd fly.