Why do Network Rail still use some imperial measurements?

[Irascible]

A lot of outdoor people and the military refer to the kilometre as a click

It's radio brevity ( I think it's with a K but as it's spoken rather than written, it's irrelevant ).

 

[William3000]

People tend to use what suits. A foot is a very well known unit of length that people can easily grasp the length of, 33cm is less so in my opinion. Metre and yard are pretty close in length. It's common for joiners to go into a woodyard and ask for 5 metres lengths of 3" by 2".

Utter stupidity is pricing petrol in litres, when everyone judges fuel consumption in MPG. Petrol should obviously be sold in gallons. The reasons it's sold in litres is that the government of the time thought the price in gallons was frightening the public and they would be less concerned if it was in litres as the price would not appear to be as bad (it was just perception).

I would argue that the stupidity is using MPG rather than l/100km. I always measure fuel consumption in l/100km because it makes more sense.

 

[JamesT]

Quite. That's why that piece of timber is 100×50, not 10×5, and that spanner is 10mm.. And the Ångstrom unit has fallen out of use.

The Angstrom is about to be back in. Intel announced they would label future processors with that as we’re getting down to the point where steps in nanometres are too large.

 

[Whistler40145]

You Brits are weird...

I was brought up on Feet, Inches, Miles and Yards and after 50 years on this planet I ain't changing

 

[Annetts key]

Well, Network Rail is increasingly moving to metric for everything.

This extract of a signalling plan for Swindon station shows nearly everything in metric only (metres), with only some existing infrastructure items also having an imperial measurement.

In this case, just the ATP infill loop distance. Also not shown, are the mileage and quarter mileposts. But under each one on the diagram is the metric distance in metres.



So the length of the platforms are in metres. The distances between signals are shown in metres. And important items are shown with their position as the number of metres from London. E.g. the position of the signals. Speed sign positions are also in metres from London.

 

[AM9]

I was brought up on Feet, Inches, Miles and Yards and after 50 years on this planet I ain't changing

So was I, but not being a dinosaur, I familiarised myself with metric measurements when the UK made a decision that imperial measurement was not the standard for general use. In 1973 and 1978 the government legislated to that effect. Of course once the effort has been made, metric measurement became far easier than using units that had irrational relationships with each other. Why saddle ourselves forever with units that are based on the length of three end to end barleycorns, twelve of those units being 2/33rds of the length of sixteen men's left feet, - and three of those units making ther length of a (particuilar) stick, and so it goes on!
It's not the root standard that matters be it a defined fration of a planetary dimension or three bits of grass seed, it's the totally irrational increments by which larger (or smaller) units are derived and actually used making for unnecessary complication and inevitable errors.

 

[snowball]

I was brought up on Feet, Inches, Miles and Yards and after 50 years on this planet I ain't changing

I've been on this planet for 72 years but I've been fairly fluent in both since primary school, and more especially since road design (a subject in which I was interested but with no professional connection) switched to metric circa 1973.

 

[alxndr]

Well, Network Rail is increasingly moving to metric for everything.

This extract of a signalling plan for Swindon station shows nearly everything in metric only (metres), with only some existing infrastructure items also having an imperial measurement.

In this case, just the ATP infill loop distance. Also not shown, are the mileage and quarter mileposts. But under each one on the diagram is the metric distance in metres.

View attachment 105933

So the length of the platforms are in metres. The distances between signals are shown in metres. And important items are shown with their position as the number of metres from London. E.g. the position of the signals. Speed sign positions are also in metres from London.

And just cut off are the loc numbers as previously discussed in this thread which involve miles and meters.

 

[snowball]

Actually, 'k' is verbal and written shorthand for 1000 or 'kilo' as in 50k (pounds, dollars, euro), or a 25k crowd as well as a race length. The unit being expressed in its thousands is understood in the context of the conversation.

Kilo is also the expanded version of the letter K in the Nato phonetic alphabet, in the same way that F is Foxtrot.

 

[DavidSA]

I picked up a discussion on UK rail distances having seen a distance described as eg 45m63c. This puzzled me until I realised it was referring to Miles and Chains...very quaint!
. The post also included references to Miles per Gallon and Litres per 100km. which appeared to cause confusion in mental conversion. I have a tip here... this uses my magic number which is 282... ! To convert eg mpg to litres per 100km just divide 282 by the mpg, and to convert litres per 100km to mpg just divide 282 by the litres/100km

 

[miklcct]

I would argue that the stupidity is using MPG rather than l/100km. I always measure fuel consumption in l/100km because it makes more sense.

mpg does not make any sense to me. I record my fuel usage in l/km, which is just l/100km moved 2 decimal places.

Why saddle ourselves forever with units that are based on the length of three end to end barleycorns, twelve of those units being 2/33rds of the length of sixteen men's left feet, - and three of those units making ther length of a (particuilar) stick, and so it goes on!

As a metric user I'm really confused when I'm forced to deal with miles and yards, especially when swimming in an old pool built before metrication. My Garmin in lap swimming mode automatically switch from yards to miles when the distance swum is over 5280 yards (3 miles), then I don't even know how many yards I have swum when it shows the number of miles!!!!!!!!! It doesn't make any sense to me!!!!! I'm swimming workouts in blocks of 1100 yards in that pool, where the pool length is 100 yards. When the watch shows miles it is just nonsense to me.

Metric doesn't have such problem since when the number of metres becomes too large it just switches to km.

 

[Irascible]

Miles per litre would be the sensible unit for the UK, absolutely no reason to convert distance too. Suspect the reason we still quote mpg is just because it's bigger...

 

[AM9]

Miles per litre would be the sensible unit for the UK, absolutely no reason to convert distance too. Suspect the reason we still quote mpg is just because it's bigger...

I would suggest that the use of mpg reflects the a desire to define the economy of the vehicle, whereas l/km is more a means of estimating the fuel needs for a journey or usage over a period.
The acceptance of one over the other is more familiarity, habit, and in some cases an 'it's not British' resistance to anything vaguely 'european'.

 

[birchesgreen]

As a metric user I'm really confused when I'm forced to deal with miles and yards, especially when swimming in an old pool built before metrication. My Garmin in lap swimming mode automatically switch from yards to miles when the distance swum is over 5280 yards (3 miles), then I don't even know how many yards I have swum when it shows the number of miles!!!!!!!!! It doesn't make any sense to me!!!!! I'm swimming workouts in blocks of 1100 yards in that pool, where the pool length is 100 yards. When the watch shows miles it is just nonsense to me.

Metric doesn't have such problem since when the number of metres becomes too large it just switches to km.

Can't you set your Garmin to use metric?

As for MPG, might as well just leave it be now as in a couple of decades it'll be irrelevant as EVs take over.

 

[rower40]

Well, Network Rail is increasingly moving to metric for everything.

This extract of a signalling plan for Swindon station shows nearly everything in metric only (metres), with only some existing infrastructure items also having an imperial measurement.

In this case, just the ATP infill loop distance. Also not shown, are the mileage and quarter mileposts. But under each one on the diagram is the metric distance in metres.

So the length of the platforms are in metres. The distances between signals are shown in metres. And important items are shown with their position as the number of metres from London. E.g. the position of the signals. Speed sign positions are also in metres from London.

But speeds are still in miles per hour (such as the '25' divergence board by the toe of 8628A points). Because the SI unit of metres per second is cumbersome and approximately 1609/3600 too large. 125mph is less than 56 m/s, and that just sounds slow.

 

[zwk500]

But speeds are still in miles per hour (such as the '25' divergence board by the toe of 8628A points). Because the SI unit of metres per second is cumbersome and approximately 1609/3600 too large. 125mph is less than 56 m/s, and that just sounds slow.

Although on the Cambrian (and HS1) the Metric unit of km/h seems to work perfectly fine.

 

[rower40]

Although on the Cambrian (and HS1) the Metric unit of km/h seems to work perfectly fine.

Agreed. And on the Pelaw to Sunderland shared-use (metro and heavy-rail), where the signs are bilingual. (T&W Metro using km/h).

 

[miklcct]

Can't you set your Garmin to use metric?

As for MPG, might as well just leave it be now as in a couple of decades it'll be irrelevant as EVs take over.

My Garmin is set in metric, but the pool I swim in is in yards so when it is in pool swimming mode it will show yards or miles. If the pool is metric then there is no problem.

 

[vic-rijrode]

... on the Pelaw to Sunderland shared-use (metro and heavy-rail), where the signs are bilingual...

English & Mackem?

 

[Baz37]

Of course everyone knows how many inches in a mile , but few know how many cm's in a km

Everyone over a certain age, I was taught the metric system so all I know in imperial is 12 inches in a foot. I find the imperial system ridiculous (why have 3 units of base 10 when you can have what appears to be an unlimited number that have a base randomly picked )incase you're wondering I started school in the early 70s,so

 

[AM9]

I can understand a person feeling at odds with metric measurements if they completed their education by the end of the '60s as although metric measurement was known and usually mentioned in the normal school environmennt, (when I was at school in the '50s our arithmetic exercise books had all metric and imperial measures in tables printed on the back cover. It also had all sorts of wierd measures such as:

troy weight - for precious metals​

rods poles and perches - an ideosyncratic measure used by surveyors​

apothecaries pounds, ounces, drams,​

and to cap it all, the so-called imperial weight measures in normal use were given a French name: avoirdupois (from the home of the metre).​

But anybody educated in the metric era (from the '70s onwards) really needs to consider why are they stuck using an obsolescent set of units.

 

[cjmillsnun]

When I left school, metres hadn't even been invented !

In that case you must be the oldest person alive as the metre was defined in 1793

You speak for yourself… I rather hoped Brexit would allow us to move back to imperial measures.

No thank you.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting that the regulations for occupation of office space are defined in metric terms (eg 11 cubic m minimum per person), but office space itself is sold in sq. ft.
I think there is still a business retail measure of "revenue per sq.ft." of sales space.

The standing capacity of trains is defined in metric terms (eg 0.45 sq.m per passenger).
Modern trains themselves only have metric dimensions (20m-26m length etc).

The popular UK battle between centigrade (C) and fahrenheit (F) has effectively been won over 50 years by centigrade (celsius), except in the tabloids in extreme weather when they go for the F value as it seems more impressive.
But it took a long time for the TV weather presenters to drop F. It's still F in the USA of course.
Meteorologists worldwide only use C.
TV wind speeds are in mph, but rainfall and snow depth are quoted in mm.

 

[45669]

If you fill your car up with petrol or diesel, you buy it in litres. But if I were to ask you how economical your car is, you'd most likely say that it does 'x' miles per gallon!

 

[cjmillsnun]

If you fill your car up with petrol or diesel, you buy it in litres. But if I were to ask you how economical your car is, you'd most likely say that it does 'x' miles per gallon!

Which just shows how stupid using mpg is. Many drivers today probably don't know how many litres to a gallon (as they were taught entirely in metric), so the economy figure is meaningless apart from bigger number = better. We need to move to miles per litre. That's going to be a low figure, but at least it will be simple maths to do pence per mile then.

 

[mike57]

That's going to be a low figure

I just wonder if thats the problem, you will have to quote a figure to 2 decimal places, currently mpg figures are usually quoted to 1 decimal place, although to most people the decimal part is irrelevent. You think of 40mpg even if 40.2 is the quoted figure, but 40mpg equates 8.97mpl, and you would have to consider at the first decimal place at least.

Bearing mind a some people are uncomfortable with fractions and decimal places that could be one of the reasons.

Yes its a mess, unfortunately metrication is tied up in a lot of peoples minds with 'Europe' and we know how contentious that was and still is. During the 70s metrication was also seen by the public as a way of concealing inflation. Put these two together and no politician is now going to grasp the nettle, to be blunt they have nothing to gain and everything to lose (politically I mean). Blame it on the European leaders who pushed towards increasingly centralised decision making, if it had remained the 'Common Market' i.e. more about co-operation and trade I dont think the 2016 vote would have happened, or even been called for, and of course the political climate which led to the inflationary period of the 70s and early 80s.

Unless a very 'pro Europe' goverment is elected I see further progress on metrication being glacial at best

 

[AM9]

Bearing mind a some people are uncomfortable with fractions and decimal places that could be one of the reasons.

Well, although clumsy, even the least educated adults managed to understand how much £5 17s 8 1/2d was.

Yes its a mess, unfortunately metrication is tied up in a lot of peoples minds with 'Europe' and we know how contentious that was and still is. During the 70s metrication was also seen by the public as a way of concealing inflation. Put these two together and no politician is now going to grasp the nettle, to be blunt they have nothing to gain and everything to lose (politically I mean).

That is a significant part of the clinging to an obsolescent Imperial system, particularly amongst those with less arithmetic education. The current administration is predisposed to appeasing that demographic despite the disadvantage that it gives the UK in a global trading market.

 

[birchesgreen]

MPG is rubbish anyway, never had a car which made anything like the manufacturer's quoted figure. And i drive like a vicar.

 

[stuu]

Which just shows how stupid using mpg is. Many drivers today probably don't know how many litres to a gallon (as they were taught entirely in metric), so the economy figure is meaningless apart from bigger number = better. We need to move to miles per litre. That's going to be a low figure, but at least it will be simple maths to do pence per mile then.

It doesn't matter though, it's only really ever used for comparison, not strictly for measurement. The vast majority of drivers know that 50 mpg is good and 10 is bad. I would bet anyone who wants to work out costs in fuel knows how to convert gallons to litres (they will need to after all). It's not much different to pints of beer, it's not being used for anything very scientific so it doesn't have much bearing on anything.

 

[Ken H]

Being metric doesn't prevent Scandinavian miles...

Nautical miles are an interesting one - sensible idea as long as you use degrees for position, makes you wonder why it wasn't made the standard unit for a mile at some point. The history is a good read for a tea break if you like that sort of thing.

A nautical mile varies depending on latitude as the earth isn't a perfect sphere. But there is a convention now to use a fixed length. But mariners use the degrees and minutes of latitude scales on charts to get distance in nautical miles. For navigation at sea its near enough!