Why do people not move down carriages to make more space?

[occone]

Possibly related, but people do seem to like to clump up when choosing seats.

I'll act like the dots on a die and try and be as far apart as possible from others, but there is always someone, usually obnoxious, who just has to sit behind you. I totally agree it's unnerving. Does the seat behind the table have particularly good window alignment?

It drives me mad. I sometimes wish I had a decoy I could put on the other end so people clumped over there leaving me in peace.

 

[BJames]

As others have said, it so often gets few if any takers, people stand where they land. Suits me, I'm happy in my country (end) club, well worth paying for the P&Q with a little extra walking at each end of the journey.

A variation I have noticed of late and now I can't un-notice is passenger behaviour in uneven filling of trains. Thinking 444s, I usually seek to take a bay of 4 table (4 of which in the country club), primarily for laptop purposes. The number of times in lightly loaded coaches what I call a parrot turns up - sitting in the airline seat immediately behind the bay of 4 in direction of travel - is far higher than random average. I don't know what is so attractive about those seats? It can be quite unsettling, particularly if your parrot is a furious laptop basher as happened to me a while back, my seat didst unduly move it did. Most surreal experience was some weeks ago, 8 of us in the coach... three of the bays of 4 were single occupied but we had four parrots between us! Maybe they wanted to simulate being in the London end coach where the punters were sat on each others laps and faces.

This is so true. Happened to me a few weeks back - only one in my carriage and someone sits right behind me. No reservations in the carriage at all - I get some people feel more comfortable nearer others but I would personally never do this, unless it was a reserved seat and I knew the train was going to be a busy one.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Since when have human beings been rational?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

This is so true. Happened to me a few weeks back - only one in my carriage and someone sits right behind me. No reservations in the carriage at all - I get some people feel more comfortable nearer others but I would personally never do this, unless it was a reserved seat and I knew the train was going to be a busy one.

Likewise, a couple of months ago I was the sole passenger in a carriage, and then a woman boards and decides the best seat was the one right next to me.

Admittedly, the train did fill up and become full and standing not so long after, but still very strange behaviour.

The train was absolutely filthy though, with stains on almost every single seat, save for the pair I was sitting in - so this may have been the rationale behind her seat choice.

 

[AM9]

Likewise, a couple of months ago I was the sole passenger in a carriage, and then a woman boards and decides the best seat was the one right next to me.

Admittedly, the train did fill up and become full and standing not so long after, but still very strange behaviour.

The train was absolutely filthy though, with stains on almost every single seat, save for the pair I was sitting in - so this may have been the rationale behind her seat choice.

Have you considered the possibility that the person may have chosen that part of the car for the same reasons as you?

 

[stuu]

As others have said, it so often gets few if any takers, people stand where they land. Suits me, I'm happy in my country (end) club, well worth paying for the P&Q with a little extra walking at each end of the journey.

A variation I have noticed of late and now I can't un-notice is passenger behaviour in uneven filling of trains. Thinking 444s, I usually seek to take a bay of 4 table (4 of which in the country club), primarily for laptop purposes. The number of times in lightly loaded coaches what I call a parrot turns up - sitting in the airline seat immediately behind the bay of 4 in direction of travel - is far higher than random average. I don't know what is so attractive about those seats? It can be quite unsettling, particularly if your parrot is a furious laptop basher as happened to me a while back, my seat didst unduly move it did. Most surreal experience was some weeks ago, 8 of us in the coach... three of the bays of 4 were single occupied but we had four parrots between us! Maybe they wanted to simulate being in the London end coach where the punters were sat on each others laps and faces.

Isn't this that the passenger gets on, hoping to find an empty bay, and then when they realise it is occupied, sit in the next-best alternative?

 

[AM9]

Isn't this that the passenger gets on, hoping to find an empty bay, and then when they realise it is occupied, sit in the next-best alternative?

Also, maybe positioning themselves to grab that bay as soon as it is vacated.

 

[jeremyjh]

The London Underground also has this issue.

Carriages at the end of the train tend to be noticeably quieter than those in the centre.

This isn't a universal truth on the Underground. It depends on the location of platform entrances on individual routes. It's certainly true of the Elizabeth line though, given that most central sections stations have their platform entrances and exits in the same place relative to the train...

 

[AM9]

If the Lizzie trains are unevenly loaded at the moment it is mainly caused by those who don't have much (or any) experience of travelling on it. Regular users shouldn't complain.as with their knowledge, they can travel more comfortably away from the.crowded.ends.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Have you considered the possibility that the person may have chosen that part of the car for the same reasons as you?

Yes, which is what I said in my final paragraph.

 

[Dave W]

At some stations - especially on the Underground - there is absolutely method in the apparent madness of stuffing yourself in to a rammed carriage over a quieter one. The time gained by "beating the crowd" when the train tips out at a principal location (KX, Oxford Circus, etc) can be considerable.

All part of the commuter experience - where can one shave a few seconds? This is your own free time you're using to get to work after all...

When I lived in Harringay (at the bottom of the hill from the NR station) and was working in Monument, I found the quickest route was Manor House (Bus) > Finsbury Park (Picc) > Highbury (Vic) > Moorgate (GN) > Bank (Northern). One stop on everything except the bus and GN. Use the dead time waiting for each train to position best for your next move. That as a collection would be positively insane to the outside observer - why not walk up the hill to Harringay? Why not carry on to KX and get the Northern Line to Bank? Etc etc. But you find what works for you, and then you hone it - within a few weeks I could beat every single journey planner suggestion using my route.

Funnily enough it's the only ever place I worked in town where the quickest method of transport was the bike. I could do door-to-door in under half an hour, totally untouchable by public transport (just under 40 minutes on a good day).

 

[Taunton]

If the Lizzie trains are unevenly loaded at the moment it is mainly caused by those who don't have much (or any) experience of travelling on it.

It's been well over a year now. Regulars will know all this by now.

A curious variant on standees on the Elizabeth is spreading, those who are fixated on a computer game on their phone. If not seated, favoured spot is jammed against the door screens, at an angle and taking up space for two, feet outermost. No concession given to those going in or out at a stop, they are absorbed in their screen game, and can actually look quite annoyed if someone bumps past them.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I have vivid memories of having to attend a location (which will remain nameless) where a certain morning peak commuter train was regularly being delayed, only by a few minutes, but enough to render its booked slot further Up the line questionable, in timetable terms, so it often became further delayed. This was a 10 car train, and only the front 5 could open, and it was known that many 'regulars' would queue in position on the platform for the rearmost door that would open, in order to be able to rush back through the rear 5 car and find their seats.
On the morning in question a number of Managers arrived both to observe and give guidance etc., as did a number of BTP. Think there were concerns of possible problems....

In the event there were no heated stand off's etc, possible due to BTP visible presence, but I remember myself explaining (as did other staff) to one chap in the above queue, that if he and others spread out along the platform and used more doors to board, they'd still have time to walk through to the rear 5 car before the next stop, and allow the crew to get the train away promptly.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess the response I and others got: ignored, blank stare, and no sign what so ever of moving along the platform. End result being, you just can't help some people....

 

[H&I]

The uneven loadings on many trains can partly be attributed to many major termini only having one entrance to the platform next to the buffer stops. Where an additional entrance is situated further down the platforms, such as at Paddington with a footbridge halfway down the platforms, are loadings more even?

 

[Silenos]

In the event there were no heated stand off's etc, possible due to BTP visible presence, but I remember myself explaining (as did other staff) to one chap in the above queue, that if he and others spread out along the platform and used more doors to board, they'd still have time to walk through to the rear 5 car before the next stop, and allow the crew to get the train away promptly.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess the response I and others got: ignored, blank stare, and no sign what so ever of moving along the platform. End result being, you just can't help some people....

But this is one of those ‘prisoner’s dilemma’ games theory things, isn’t it? If that chap goes a carriage or two down and nobody else does, he finds himself at the back of the boarding horde at the last door, and perhaps doesn’t get his preferred seat. It’s only if all parties agree to spread out that he potentially gains.

 

[xotGD]

But this is one of those ‘prisoner’s dilemma’ games theory things, isn’t it? If that chap goes a carriage or two down and nobody else does, he finds himself at the back of the boarding horde at the last door, and perhaps doesn’t get his preferred seat. It’s only if all parties agree to spread out that he potentially gains.

Sometimes if you get on at the next door you can get through before most have boarded at the end door.

A similar tactic at stations with a high passenger turnover (e.g. Leeds on TPE services) involves getting on at the door of a first class carriage and heading through to the standard class, so that you can be first in ahead of all those waiting to board while the carriage empties out.

 

[Skiddaw]

This is so true. Happened to me a few weeks back - only one in my carriage and someone sits right behind me. No reservations in the carriage at all - I get some people feel more comfortable nearer others but I would personally never do this, unless it was a reserved seat and I knew the train was going to be a busy one.

I hate that too. I've been known to get up and move when I've been on the recieving end. I hate my space being invaded unnecessarily.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

But this is one of those ‘prisoner’s dilemma’ games theory things, isn’t it?

Sometimes if you get on at the next door you can get through before most have boarded at the end door.

Absolutely, it is what it is (or was, in the case I refer to), my point being the apparent hypocrisy of (albeit a minority) of commuters who complained about their train being late quite often, and then refusing to engage with/or help the industry in what was a very small way, to address their original complaints. IIRC the train concerned was subsequently increased to 12 cars due to overcrowding further up the line (allowing front 8 to be opened), but which probably irked the original complainants even more for another reason, but that might be giving too much away.......

 

[dingdinger]

The Stansted Express is a classic example of this from my observations particularly during busier periods. Everyone piles on at the back at Liverpool Street. The same again happens at Tottenham Hale and as a result of people not moving down plenty of people get left behind when they could have fit if the load was evenly distributed.

 

[AM9]

I hate that too. I've been known to get up and move when I've been on the recieving end. I hate my space being invaded unnecessarily.

Sitting in a seat behind you isn't "invading your space". Trains are public transport.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Sitting in a seat behind you isn't "invading your space". Trains are public transport.

Yes. And ironically some lone/vulnerable individuals may even choose to sit next to a 'nice/respectable person' on a double seat to ensure that some unwelcome 'weirdo' or whatever doesn't come and sit next to them at a subsequent station.

 

[Phil R]

Also, maybe positioning themselves to grab that bay as soon as it is vacated.

Explain my observation this morning then. I was the only occupant of the 4 bays. Two of the three vacant bays had both forward and reverse parrots!

 

[bramling]

Sitting in a seat behind you isn't "invading your space". Trains are public transport.

That may be so, however it’s still a bit creepy behaviour IMO.

Yes. And ironically some lone/vulnerable individuals may even choose to sit next to a 'nice/respectable person' on a double seat to ensure that some unwelcome 'weirdo' or whatever doesn't come and sit next to them at a subsequent station.

Which may well give false sense of security.

 

[david1212]

I will aim to stand on the platform where I think the quietest carriage will stop. If the destination is a terminus the front so as one of the first off and through the barrier before the queues build. When I was on London Underground more often on some routes I remembered where to join so as to leave at the most convenient platform exit rather than have to walk along.

Regarding moving down to the middle of a carriage if many are standing on e.g. a 158 or Voyager with end doors there is the difficulty of getting to the doors at your destination station. The most overcrowded train I have ever been on was a 158 north from Shrewsbury. Not one more could squeeze on with even the toilet being stood in. At each station the train got later as those nearest the doors had to get off so others could then rejoin followed those waiting trying to squeeze on.

 

[alex397]

I think some people genuinely prefer to sit amongst a lot of people rather than a quiet carriage. Some people arn’t very keen on that.

I remember boasting to my family that I had a whole carriage to myself when travelling through the Austrian Alps. They couldn’t understand why I wanted a carriage to myself, and they would have preferred to be with lots of other people.

Thinking about it, it makes sense if some have had a bad experience on public transport, or are simply scared it might happen. Not that is particularly rational, as it’s rare for something to happen.

 

[BeijingDave]

Explain my observation this morning then. I was the only occupant of the 4 bays. Two of the three vacant bays had both forward and reverse parrots!

People's ideas about what constitutes personal space are different. You tend to also have a much greater tolerance of people invading 'your' personal space if you have spent significant time living in a crowded city. There is considerable research supporting it.

I would not do this, but many people could genuinely not comprehend why you would think it is wrong.

 

[Kite159]

The Stansted Express is a classic example of this from my observations particularly during busier periods. Everyone piles on at the back at Liverpool Street. The same again happens at Tottenham Hale and as a result of people not moving down plenty of people get left behind when they could have fit if the load was evenly distributed.

The issue at Tottenham Hale is the lack of canopy or shelter at the northern end. So if the weather is bad passengers crowd around the canopy area for the rear 4/5 coaches.

 

[dingdinger]

The issue at Tottenham Hale is the lack of canopy or shelter at the northern end. So if the weather is bad passengers crowd around the canopy area for the rear 4/5 coaches.

Happens when the weather is dry too. I think the Stansted service suffers from it more than the Hertford and Cambridge trains where people do spread out. Also doesn't help people not moving down and congregating in the doorways with luggage. Having 1 doorway per coach also adds to it.

 

[Silenos]

People's ideas about what constitutes personal space are different. You tend to also have a much greater tolerance of people invading 'your' personal space if you have spent significant time living in a crowded city. There is considerable research supporting it.

I would not do this, but many people could genuinely not comprehend why you would think it is wrong.

Also, personally I would never choose to sit in an empty bay with two pairs of seats facing one another, knowing that I am likely to end up playing footsie with a stranger, or be bracketed by a group of 3. On my usual journey on the 387s from Kings Lynn to Kings Cross I always select the airline style pairs, but preferably two rows down from the bay by the door.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Yes. And ironically some lone/vulnerable individuals may even choose to sit next to a 'nice/respectable person' on a double seat to ensure that some unwelcome 'weirdo' or whatever doesn't come and sit next to them at a subsequent station.

I've once had this with a Ukrainian couple who asked me if I could assist them at the next station (they were heading to an Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain branch but weren't sure in which direction to go), I quite happy to help them given their basic English.

I think the reason why some people prefer sitting next to or ajacent to others is that it gives a bit of security i.e. the bloke by the window could be the woman's partner whose sat in the aisle seat next to him so there's less chance of some nutjob trying anything on. Then there's the late services in which drunks are present, a lone woman may be more willing to sit next to someone who is sober.