Why do people view the UK as being worse than other countries in certain areas when it isn't?

[Chester1]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/air-bridges-with-european-countries-given-green-light.205889

I don't see how the UK is number one when Belgium has been ahead of us all the way....

San Marino is top (1238/million), then Belgium with 843, Andorra next with 673 then the UK with 652. Spain, Italy, Sweden and France follow on behind meaning the top 8 countries in the list with the highest death rate per capita are all in Europe. USA is in 9th.
The way countries count their deaths is not consistent, so its difficult to compare one with another. Russia is down on 71 deaths per 1 million.....and if you believe that then you believe anything.

As for Luxembourg, probably worth pointing out that they actually have a higher CASE RATE than the UK..... 7,223 per million compared with UK's 4,209 per million.

People "feel" UK is worst. That matters more than facts.

 

[Richard Scott]

People "feel" UK is worst. That matters more than facts.

That's pretty normal for this country, we always think everyone else does things much better. Media keeps this myth going too. I can guarantee that it's definitely not true and that UK does a number of things very well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's pretty normal for this country, we always think everyone else does things much better. Media keeps this myth going too. I can guarantee that it's definitely not true and that UK does a number of things very well.

No better example of that than the railway. DB? Yeah, it's great, but frequencies are much lower and it is going through somewhat of a punctuality problem. SNCF? TGV is fancy but your regional train is once an hour at best and is probably actually a bus. SNCB/NMBS or NS? Effective, but very, very basic and quite slow. Yet people think they're all way way better than ours, which in some ways they may be but not others.

 

[Richard Scott]

No better example of that than the railway. DB? Yeah, it's great, but frequencies are much lower and it is going through somewhat of a punctuality problem. SNCF? TGV is fancy but your regional train is once an hour at best and is probably actually a bus. SNCB/NMBS or NS? Effective, but very, very basic and quite slow. Yet people think they're all way way better than ours, which in some ways they may be but not others.

Railways are a classic example. To be honest our system holds up very favourably against the others (I've travelled around most of Europe by train) even on prices unless you're prepared to take forever in the other countries then you can travel cheaply. All the same, still hoping to get out to Europe this year even if just for a change of scenery. As an aside are there any travel restrictions (bar the face mask issue) on NS, SNCB, SNCF, DB or SBB? Apologies if going off topic but they are permitted countries now!

 

[Envy123]

No better example of that than the railway. DB? Yeah, it's great, but frequencies are much lower and it is going through somewhat of a punctuality problem. SNCF? TGV is fancy but your regional train is once an hour at best and is probably actually a bus. SNCB/NMBS or NS? Effective, but very, very basic and quite slow. Yet people think they're all way way better than ours, which in some ways they may be but not others.

Also, Spanish regional railways are so infrequent that when going between Barcelona and Figueres, it’s often faster to take the stopper than wait for the express. Yep, you read that correctly.

In the UK, I never came across this and in fact, longer distance services have higher priority on their respective mainlines.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Typical English self-loathing I think, America seem to be a bit similar in some ways.

I get tired of hearing people complain they wish Britain was more like Scandinvian countries, even though the UK is far larger than them, so its hardly fair to compare the two.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

May be off beam here, but if that is the case then why is the UK seemingly the destination of choice for refugee seekers from overseas; which is what certain parts of the media would have you believe?!

 

[WestCoast]

I have family in both Germany and Spain, and lived in the former for a couple of years. People are a mixed bag in all countries you can't generalise but I find the civility and efficiency of the public sector generally very good in the UK, yes I'd rather have dealings with just about anyone at my local council, job centre, hospital, police station, even HMRC than any equivalent I've ever encountered in Germany or Spain. You've never come across bureacracy and general "can't do" attitude until you've lived in these places.

I tried to report a case of theft to the Spanish police last year as my insurance company demanded I do and after waiting four hours to see someone in a dingy basement. the "investigating police officer" I met practically shouted at me that I was wasting her time for a a low value incident (400-500 euros worth of outdoor gear) even though I'd followed the process to the letter and had a fluent Spanish speaker with me...... Their online system for reporting crimes has been broken for three years!! I think the same thing in the UK would take about 15 minutes with most police forces.....

May be off beam here, but if that is the case then why is the UK seemingly the destination of choice for refugee seekers from overseas; which is what certain parts of the media would have you believe?!

Nope, in 2018 Germany had five times as many applications for asylum than the UK, even Sweden with a population 10 million or so wasn't far behind the UK with a population of 66 million.

 

[al78]

May be off beam here, but if that is the case then why is the UK seemingly the destination of choice for refugee seekers from overseas; which is what certain parts of the media would have you believe?!

That is another media myth.

These are the countries that accept the most refugees in the world

For the first time since the adoption of the Refugee Act in 1980, the US is not resettling the most refugees.

www.weforum.org

List of sovereign states by refugee population - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To answer the original question, it is because most people only have experience of things going tits up in the UK, and not overseas, because they have never lived oversees. If you ask those who have lived oversees a large portion of their life and ask them to compare to the UK, you would end up with a more objective comparison. A student friend of mine 20 years ago who moved from Hong Kong to study in the UK was forever lambasting the UK, mainly its cost of living and crap public transport.

It is meaningless to make comparisons between other countries anyway. If something is poor, aim to improve it, don't engage the fallacy of relative privation by saying things are worse elsewhere. It is not good enough to be better than the worst.

 

[WestCoast]

To answer the original question, it is because most people only have experience of things going tits up in the UK, and not overseas, because they have never lived oversees. If you ask those who have lived oversees a large portion of their life and ask them to compare to the UK, you would end up with a more objective comparison. A student friend of mine 20 years ago who moved from Hong Kong to study in the UK was forever lambasting the UK, mainly its cost of living and crap public transport.

It is meaningless to make comparisons between other countries anyway. If something is poor, aim to improve it, don't engage the fallacy of relative privation by saying things are worse elsewhere. It is not good enough to be better than the worst.

Yes and you defintely have to live there for some time. In contrast to the officialdom which I do not like, the best thing about Germany for me is the 'livability' of their cities - things like good quality housing, very good urban public transport/cyclepaths, public leisure facilities like open air pools and spas are in adundance and very high quality. In Spain, I find price/quality ratio of the food in the shops is truly outstanding compared to the UK, the produce often tastes amazing due to the climate and quality concious processes. Also less of a drink to get drunk and throw up culture going on in both places meaning going out in the evening feels more relaxed, Benidorm etc excepted of course for obvious reasons!

 

[najaB]

People "feel" UK is worst. That matters more than facts.

If you live somewhere you have more opportunities to see the bad side. Try revisiting that "amazing" holiday destination a few times. It'll lose it's charm.

 

[Jamesrob637]

No better example of that than the railway. DB? Yeah, it's great, but frequencies are much lower and it is going through somewhat of a punctuality problem. SNCF? TGV is fancy but your regional train is once an hour at best and is probably actually a bus. SNCB/NMBS or NS? Effective, but very, very basic and quite slow. Yet people think they're all way way better than ours, which in some ways they may be but not others.

Only SBB and maybe ÖBB beat us there but look at the GDP of both Switzerland and Austria and it's hardly surprising/definitely to be expected. The Czech Railways always impress me on visits there but it's one of those: stick around and it won't appear as rosy as it does on the surface.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

That's pretty normal for this country, we always think everyone else does things much better. Media keeps this myth going too. I can guarantee that it's definitely not true and that UK does a number of things very well.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

No better example of that than the railway. DB? Yeah, it's great, but frequencies are much lower and it is going through somewhat of a punctuality problem. SNCF? TGV is fancy but your regional train is once an hour at best and is probably actually a bus. SNCB/NMBS or NS? Effective, but very, very basic and quite slow. Yet people think they're all way way better than ours, which in some ways they may be but not others.

Railways are a classic example. To be honest our system holds up very favourably against the others (I've travelled around most of Europe by train) even on prices unless you're prepared to take forever in the other countries then you can travel cheaply. All the same, still hoping to get out to Europe this year even if just for a change of scenery. As an aside are there any travel restrictions (bar the face mask issue) on NS, SNCB, SNCF, DB or SBB? Apologies if going off topic but they are permitted countries now!

I agree with both of you. I think the UK in my opinion has the best trains in Europe! People complain all the time (ok I respect their opinion but think about something positive). The only things I don't like about UK trains are that prices can be very expensive and quite a good chunk of our railway lines are still unelectrified, even though luckily they're electrifying quite a few routes like the GWML and the MML.

Apologies for the off topic, btw.

 

[LMS 4F]

My experience of the Guardia Civil on Lanzarote earlier this year trying to report a crime is that they are anything but civil.
On the flip side as it were why are some things in this country held up as the best in the world when they plainly are not. I would suggest the NHS and the Police are both in this category. They are both good in their way but the best in the world I think not.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

On the other hand, I believe the worst trains in Europe are in Italy. Trains are hardly on time, very slow, very infrequent and they put only 2-3 coaches on a very important route - from Campobasso (Molise) to Rome (Lazio), which you could say the equivalent of Portsmouth to London. And most trains are inaccessible to people with difficulties and wheelchair users, thanks to the stupid 2-3 steps present on old trains such as the ALn 668, or the ALe 724. On the other hand, in the UK, there is basically no train that is not accessible to wheelchair users or the elderly, now that the Pacers have all been withdrawn. Oh and a stopping train can take about nearly 2 hours to only cover a distance of about 70 km.

Also, despite the fact that 66% of our railways are electrified (I'm partially Italian in case you don't know), two of our regions - Valle D'Aosta (Aosta Valley) and Sardegna (Sardinia) have NO electrification at all. And a third one, Molise, only has 23% of electrified railways. And out of our 15974 km total, 9223 km / 57 % of our railways are SINGLE track. That's right, SINGLE track. Which explains why our trains are so slow and infrequent (referring to my Italian side of my dual nationality).

Once again, I seriously apologise for the off topic.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Our railway safety record from a passenger perspective is pretty damned good too.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Travelling King's Cross to Doncaster one Saturday a little while ago when services were diverted via Lincoln, I choose a service booked for - 225 set so that I could savour 67 haulage beyond Peterborough.
Unfortunately, when coupling the 67 at Peterboro' difficulty was met with and we were all evicted from the train and directed to the following HST.
I found myself sitting opposite a couple; the gentlemen, dressed like someone's idea of a country landowner, soon announced to his timid looking wife in a tone possibly intended to be heard by the whole carriage 'we could learn from the Continent (I think he actually said 'Continong', to add to the stereotype) - they do things so much better!'
Leaving aside the need to help with the obvious confusion in his mind about geography, I could have pointed out that I was uncertain whether the defect was caused by a Spanish built locomotive or the maintenance regime of a German railway company but either way ...

It's not only people with a right-of-centre view that have this opinion; reading the Guardian on-line almost every news item seems to hinge on yet another way that England is laughably inferior to everywhere else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're also substantially better at buses than France is - yes, even with deregulation - their frequencies are low and their period of service short once you get outside Paris. For instance, there's no bus to meet the Portsmouth-Caen ferry at Ouistreham in the late evening as it finishes at about 2000 - whoever thought of that? That ferry carries plenty of foot passengers, most of whom would use it rather than the rather expensive taxi option.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

We're also substantially better at buses than France is - yes, even with deregulation - their frequencies are low and their period of service short once you get outside Paris. For instance, there's no bus to meet the Portsmouth-Caen ferry at Ouistreham in the late evening as it finishes at about 2000 - whoever thought of that? That ferry carries plenty of foot passengers, most of whom would use it rather than the rather expensive taxi option.

I absolutely agree with you.
Also for another reason in my opinion - basically every rural bus in France is step entrance (example: Iveco Crossway or Mercedes Integro), making it really hard for the elderly to board. In the UK on the other hand, every bus service (with the exception of long distance coach services and the odd school buses), including rural ones are run with low floor buses making it easier for the elderly to be able to board. And it speeds time too if you think about it.

In terms of making buses and trains fully accessible and step free, I dare to say, the UK is way ahead compared to some European countries, with France (and in my opinion, Italy and Spain too) being perfect examples.

The only other European countries that in my opinion (in terms of fully accessible public transport) can come close or are getting close to UK levels are Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Czech Republic. And now Ireland too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of making buses and trains fully accessible and step free, I dare to say, the UK is way ahead compared to some European countries, with France (and in my opinion, Italy and Spain too) being perfect examples.

We were for many years, but with trains the likes of the Stadler FLIRT are tipping the balance back the other way, given that we have adopted a high floor design as the standard for our InterCity EMU and bi-modes as well as ordering lots of high-floor DMUs from CAF (who can build low-floor ones too if only we'd ordered them!)

 

[SouthEastBuses]

We were for many years, but with trains the likes of the Stadler FLIRT are tipping the balance back the other way, given that we have adopted a high floor design as the standard for our InterCity EMU and bi-modes as well as ordering lots of high-floor DMUs from CAF (who can build low-floor ones too if only we'd ordered them!)

Ok true point, but they are still better than for example an Italian FS ALn 663 / 668 where to enter you will have to negotiate 3 steps as if you were boarding a coach.

Plus, if you require accessibility, you can always request the ramp to board the high floor UK trains. And if the platform aligns correctly, many high floor UK trains are still step free. Whilst the Italian ALn railcars have NO form of accessibility at all.

I suppose, what we could do, is to raise the platform heights at all stations outside those served with Stadler FLIRTs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

SNCF? TGV is fancy but your regional train is once an hour at best and is probably actually a bus.

This is where it gets hard to compare. France is largely very very rural, and so regional rural trains are slow and irregular, or substituted with buses. If you get into the really rural bits of the UK you'll find the same.

I think most similarly-developed countries are much of a muchness. A lot of it is swings and roundabouts. The buses in Ibiza are old and step-access, but they're also air conditioned and a ticket is €1.30.

Specifically with transport, the issue isn't really that the UK is worse, more that the UK is more expensive. In Munich, one of the most expensive cities in Europe, the equivalent of a Z1-6 Travelcard is £11.60 (€13). It's only a couple of quid, but you notice it, and most other cities are much cheaper than Munich so you notice it more.

 

[najaB]

In Munich, one of the most expensive cities in Europe, the equivalent of a Z1-6 Travelcard is £11.60 (€13). It's only a couple of quid, but you notice it, and most other cities are much cheaper than Munich so you notice it more.

Indeed. I was in Dresden (shortly before the Event) and a all city travel card (bus, regional trains and trams) was €6.

 

[al78]

If you live somewhere you have more opportunities to see the bad side. Try revisiting that "amazing" holiday destination a few times. It'll lose it's charm.

When staying in an "amazing holiday destination", you tend to be sheltered from the worst a country has to offer. In "An Idiot Abroad", Karl Pilkington was frequently exposed to reality in the countries he was sent, not the pretty pretty tourist areas.

 

[al78]

I agree with both of you. I think the UK in my opinion has the best trains in Europe!

Not everyone agrees with you.

Europe’s best train systems, UK railway poor in service quality

UK railways have the joint 6th worst standard of service in Europe, according to insights found in a new report by the Boston Consultancy Group.

www.consultancy.uk

According to that link, the UK rail network is surprisingly decent, but a fair way from being the best.

 

[al78]

This is where it gets hard to compare. France is largely very very rural, and so regional rural trains are slow and irregular, or substituted with buses. If you get into the really rural bits of the UK you'll find the same.

Yes, when I spent a couple of weeks backpacking in Scotland last year (Wester Ross/Fisherfield), I had to carefully plan my route to be compatible with buses and trains in advance. The bus route frequencies are per day, not per hour, there can be 2-3 hours between rail services, the buses serving Wester Ross go a different route round a big loop on different days, which matters if you want to travel to Dundonnell or Poolewe (pick the wrong day and you'll have a very long walk at the end of your journey). The Scottish highlands has one of the lowest population densities in Europe, thanks to a combination of factors, I found it impressive the public transport was as good as it was (i.e. it was practical for me to use when needed), very low population densities are not great for public transport to serve.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Not everyone agrees with you.

Europe’s best train systems, UK railway poor in service quality

UK railways have the joint 6th worst standard of service in Europe, according to insights found in a new report by the Boston Consultancy Group.

www.consultancy.uk

According to that link, the UK rail network is surprisingly decent, but a fair way from being the best.

Everybody is welcome and entitled to their opinion of course.

 

[al78]

Everybody is welcome and entitled to their opinion of course.

True, but irrelevant. Entitlement to an opinion doesn't mean that opinion can't be challenged.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

True, but irrelevant. Entitlement to an opinion doesn't mean that opinion can't be challenged.

And also, like with everything else, UK trains aren't perfect. Yes, they are in my opinion the best in Europe, but they have a couple of defects, too. One of the defects of UK trains, in my opinion, is that the tickets are WAY too overpriced and expensive. And also, in 2006, only 40% of UK railways were electrified, even though the percentage has now been increased thanks to electrification of the GWML, MML, and railways in the North of England and Scotland.