Why do some passengers not get how annoying it is to play music and videos out loud?

[Bletchleyite]

Then instead of TSOs we need what Merseyrail have.

I know some of the new uniforms being worn by GTR revenue staff are much less nicey-nicey than before. Less of the 'customer service' look and more the look of someone who has some powers (even if they often do not). Stab vests are increasingly becoming an option for staff who have not that long adopted body cameras, which in itself is a sad sign of where we are.

One thing I've noticed on TfW is that the all-black uniforms all of their staff have gives that same look even to regular guards and the likes. Though I seem to recall the reason for going for black uniforms wasn't that but was rather due to an issue with reflections on screens in the cab.

 

[jon0844]

One thing I've noticed on TfW is that the all-black uniforms all of their staff have gives that same look even to regular guards and the likes. Though I seem to recall the reason for going for black uniforms wasn't that but was rather due to an issue with reflections on screens in the cab.

I believe for GTR it's an option to wear the new design, so it likely isn't down to issues with running the service. The new look is much more, dare I say it, authoritarian in look. More military/police, akin to what security guards are increasingly opting to wear. The back has the usual police/security style blue panel that says revenue. I am not sure if these are regular passenger hosts or another hybrid role that sits between those and REOs, but I suspect this is part of the DfT continuing to push for more strict revenue protection. Gates manned for longer, and more onboard checks (given short faring is so big now).

Any pretence that these are customer service minded people who also check tickets is going out of the window. I don't know if they're actively going after people vaping or putting feet on seats, but I wish they would.

 

[Cross City]

Spoken like a serial non-headphone wearer who doesn't see the problem.

I absolutely do not do that but OK.

It’s just pointless isn’t it? It’d cost too much and it’s unenforceable

 

[Bletchleyite]

I absolutely do not do that but OK.

It’s just pointless isn’t it?

No.

It’d cost too much and it’s unenforceable

Settlements can cover part of the cost, and it's totally enforceable - Merseyrail have proven this with feet on seats.

 

[Cross City]

No.



Settlements can cover part of the cost, and it's totally enforceable - Merseyrail have proven this with feet on seats.

Opinions innit. It’s rubbish like this is why the Lib Dem’s are unelectable.

 

[ainsworth74]

If the guards insist that they are a safety role then they should be more like bouncers (certainly for future recruitment). And resolutely backed by management (no caving in to ‘customer is always right; private prosecutions if the police won’t go after those who assault staff etc).

I would rather guards weren't running the risk of assault and therefore have trains cancelled and delayed!

Confronting miscreants is definitely the job of a different dedicated role and once which should exist for certain. Northern's Travel Safe Officers are a good start but they should be also be dealing with the enforcement of the bye-laws (suitably backed by management to do so) not just chucking people off trains if they get a bit leary. Merseyrail seem to have the right idea with their enforcement officers who do seem to regularly bring prosecutions for bye-law violations, it would be nice to see that rolled out a little more widely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Opinions innit.

It's certainly my opinion that people shouldn't be able to get away with antisocial behaviour in public, yes.

It’s rubbish like this is why the Lib Dem’s are unelectable.

There are reasons why the LDs don't get into power, but that isn't one of them, because the vast majority of people want an end to noise pollution of that kind. Their preference towards higher taxes is probably the main one.

 

[Fiyero]

On the bus today and a young mum / old sister had 2 kids with her - both watching youtube on mobile phones, one quite loud. She had her earplugs in!

For those saying just wear headphones I have noise cancelling ones and they are good at getting rid of the drone of the bus / train etc... but sometimes that means hearing the other music etc... better! Not sure if there are more expensive ones that would truly cancel out the noise but probably not in my budget.

 

[Gwr12345]

On the bus today and a young mum / old sister had 2 kids with her - both watching youtube on mobile phones, one quite loud. She had her earplugs in!

For those saying just wear headphones I have noise cancelling ones and they are good at getting rid of the drone of the bus / train etc... but sometimes that means hearing the other music etc... better! Not sure if there are more expensive ones that would truly cancel out the noise but probably not in my budget.

Noise cancelling is only really good at filtering out low level rumble, it struggles quite a pit with higher pitch noise-so will struggle to filter out conversation and other people's music.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For those saying just wear headphones I have noise cancelling ones and they are good at getting rid of the drone of the bus / train etc... but sometimes that means hearing the other music etc... better! Not sure if there are more expensive ones that would truly cancel out the noise but probably not in my budget.

Certainly AirPods only do as you say and can make the irritant more, not less, audible. You probably want to invest in a pair of over-ear "cans" which would block the noise out by virtue of being sealed around your ear as well as having the noise cancelling feature.

 

[Fiyero]

Noise cancelling is only really good at filtering out low level rumble, it struggles quite a pit with higher pitch noise-so will struggle to filter out conversation and other people's music.

Certainly AirPods only do as you say and can make the irritant more, not less, audible. You probably want to invest in a pair of over-ear "cans" which would block the noise out by virtue of being sealed around your ear as well as having the noise cancelling feature.

Thanks, I have over-ear ones (but not top end by any stretch!)

 

[Towers]

If the guards insist that they are a safety role then they should be more like bouncers (certainly for future recruitment). And resolutely backed by management (no caving in to ‘customer is always right; private prosecutions if the police won’t go after those who assault staff etc).
There is a dangerous tipping point of unknown place when suddenly social media etc paints the railway as lawless and it becomes actively avoided.

I’m sorry, but that’s absolute carp! Guards very much are a safety role - not because “they insist”, but because the Rulebook says so! - but that involves safety critical duties and competence in the event of emergencies, not having fistycuffs with yobs. That really isn’t what the job is, nor is it what the railway wants as an employer or what passengers need if they want to get where they’re going!

There are very few organisations who permit or encourage their employees to get involved in physical confrontations, and doing so with railway guards would end badly for all sorts of reasons. That really isn’t a good suggestion.

What is needed, and badly so, is a separate enforcement role of some description, but it’s worth making the point once again that if it were to include the ability to manhandle miscreants off of trains it would need to be a lot more specialist than the usual ‘travel officer’ type of role that we currently see. As an aside, are Merseyrail’s enforcement officers authorised to physically remove people? I’m going to guess no, but does anyone know for sure?

 

[Krokodil]

One thing I've noticed on TfW is that the all-black uniforms all of their staff have gives that same look even to regular guards and the likes. Though I seem to recall the reason for going for black uniforms wasn't that but was rather due to an issue with reflections on screens in the cab.

The guards' uniforms will be changing soon. Apparently there will be two options, one of which might be described as a "Conductor" uniform, the other a "Train Manager" uniform (so jacket, tie etc.) - though individual guards will have the choice of either.

 

[lachlan]

Personally I've found Airpods (specifically the Pro 2 model) to be massively helpful although they don't always block out noise they take the "edge" off and make it more bearable.

The advantage of airpods over big headphones is I slip them into my bag and so always have them on me. The battery lasts ages, I've never had them be flat when I needed them.

Has anyone on here tried earplugs (eg "Loop" brand)?

 

[35B]

I’m sorry, but that’s absolute carp! Guards very much are a safety role - not because “they insist”, but because the Rulebook says so! - but that involves safety critical duties and competence in the event of emergencies, not having fistycuffs with yobs. That really isn’t what the job is, nor is it what the railway wants as an employer or what passengers need if they want to get where they’re going!

There are very few organisations who permit or encourage their employees to get involved in physical confrontations, and doing so with railway guards would end badly for all sorts of reasons. That really isn’t a good suggestion.

What is needed, and badly so, is a separate enforcement role of some description, but it’s worth making the point once again that if it were to include the ability to manhandle miscreants off of trains it would need to be a lot more specialist than the usual ‘travel officer’ type of role that we currently see. As an aside, are Merseyrail’s enforcement officers authorised to physically remove people? I’m going to guess no, but does anyone know for sure?

All true, but misses a key point - when staff are seen to enforce policies, compliance will increase. So, in this case, if guards do patrol trains and do ask those behaving anti-socially to stop, the amount of it going on will fall. Not to zero, but materially. And that will make trains more comfortable for all to travel aboard.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

On the bus today and a young mum / old sister had 2 kids with her - both watching youtube on mobile phones, one quite loud. She had her earplugs in!

That would be an interesting test case; should small children be prosecuted for watching CBBC cartoons with the sound up on their iPads?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be an interesting test case; should small children be prosecuted for watching CBBC cartoons with the sound up on their iPads?

Generally children aren't prosecuted, but they should certainly be told in no uncertain terms to turn it off, and if the parent argues back rather than apologising they should be removed from the service as a family.

 

[Meerkat]

Confronting miscreants is definitely the job of a different dedicated role and once which should exist for certain.

Telling miscreants they are breaking the rules should very much be the role of the guard.

I’m sorry, but that’s absolute carp! Guards very much are a safety role - not because “they insist”, but because the Rulebook says so! - but that involves safety critical duties and competence in the event of emergencies, not having fistycuffs with yobs. That really isn’t what the job is, nor is it what the railway wants as an employer or what passengers need if they want to get where they’re going!

The unions love to tell us that passengers want guards for safety. In passenger terms that means creating a safe environment, not hiding in a cab just doing pure operational stuff.
Creating more roles when current staff have the time capacity is crazy. Any extra people should be backup for escalation, and back office to follow up.

 

[Cross City]

Certainly AirPods only do as you say and can make the irritant more, not less, audible. You probably want to invest in a pair of over-ear "cans" which would block the noise out by virtue of being sealed around your ear as well as having the noise cancelling feature.

Are you sure you don't have transparency mode on? (where it blocks background noise but makes voices more audible?

I use airpods and the noise cancelling on them, for in-ear headphones, is pretty good and it certainly doesn't make irritating noises more noticable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you sure you don't have transparency mode on? (where it blocks background noise but makes voices more audible?

Doesn't appear so, no. Didn't know that mode existed, though, I might have a play with it.

 

[Cross City]

Doesn't appear so, no. Didn't know that mode existed, though, I might have a play with it.

When you have your airpods in swipe down on your screen and press-hold on the volume control slider and it'll bring up all the noise cancelling options.

 

[Krokodil]

All true, but misses a key point - when staff are seen to enforce policies, compliance will increase. So, in this case, if guards do patrol trains and do ask those behaving anti-socially to stop, the amount of it going on will fall. Not to zero, but materially. And that will make trains more comfortable for all to travel aboard.

Some of us already try to politely enforce standards. However it feels like a losing battle, it would help a lot if we had clear signage to point at when someone argues the toss.

Generally children aren't prosecuted, but they should certainly be told in no uncertain terms to turn it off, and if the parent argues back rather than apologising they should be removed from the service as a family.

Some parents will claim that their kids are autistic (which may or may not be true) and that this is a reason that they should be able to play Paw Patrol out loud (no consideration for other passengers who may be neurodivergent). If you try to insist then they start filming you. No back-up from management.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some parents will claim that their kids are autistic (which may or may not be true) and that this is a reason that they should be able to play Paw Patrol out loud (no consideration for other passengers who may be neurodivergent). If you try to insist then they start filming you. No back-up from management.

And this is part of the problem. Merseyrail's management are committed to reducing antisocial behaviour, hence their employing people specifically tasked at combatting it. Those on pretty much all other TOCs appear not to care.

 

[Leaguer]

And this is part of the problem. Merseyrail's management are committed to reducing antisocial behaviour, hence their employing people specifically tasked at combatting it. Those on pretty much all other TOCs appear not to care.

Therefore the TOC's and bus companies need to know that this is something they need to care about or they lose money. It needs to be part of their contract.

 

[Towers]

Telling miscreants they are breaking the rules should very much be the role of the guard.

The unions love to tell us that passengers want guards for safety. In passenger terms that means creating a safe environment, not hiding in a cab just doing pure operational stuff.
Creating more roles when current staff have the time capacity is crazy. Any extra people should be backup for escalation, and back office to follow up.

Nobody suggested that anyone wants to hide in a back cab. However, the reality - like it or not - is that guards are not employed to get into fights or physically sling disobedient punters off of trains, and most if not all TOCs have strict policies which demand that conflict be avoided, rather than actively looked for! And so, in practical terms, there is little more that they can do other than have a word. Any talk of “enforcement” immediately means you are discussing something beyond the scope of the guard.

There is another angle to this as well - are we chucking off every loud, drunken hen do or stag party on saturday nights? What about trainloads of football louts? All those in favour of all these hard, fast and no nonsense rules and their uncompromising enforcement might like to consider how it’ll work in those sorts of scenario?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is another angle to this as well - are we chucking off every loud, drunken hen do or stag party on saturday nights? What about trainloads of football louts? All those in favour of all these hard, fast and no nonsense rules and their uncompromising enforcement might like to consider how it’ll work in those sorts of scenario?

Merseyrail certainly do go quite far - too far, some would say - in terms of telling drunks to get lost. However I think there's a difference between human hubbub (even the very loud human hubbub you get after football matches and the likes) and noise nuisance from electronic devices. The latter is uniquely annoying.

Having said that, I would like to see staff ask people who are being loud like that to leave quiet coaches where provided.

On the other hand, if such people are harassing other passengers rather than just being a bit loud* they absolutely should be removed from the train and have the book thrown at them.

* Despite this rightly not being acceptable for a male group, it's not unusual for hen do participants to do things to random men that might be considered sexual harassment or assault, such as backside-pinching, kissing and the likes. I get that there's a different power dynamic, but nonetheless I don't like this at all and would like to see it treated as seriously as a man doing that to a woman rightly would be. I would want staff witnessing this to consider calling the BTP (noting that like the other way round the passenger may not be comfortable asking for this).

 

[gazzaa2]

It's already in the Byelaws. The railway just needs to follow Merseyrail's lead and start enforcing them with a strict approach (feet on seats included).

It's all about enforcement. Get posters at stations and on trains. Add it to the myriad of PA announcements 'see it say it sorted' etc. and most of it would quickly stop.

The problem is/was allowing people playing music/videos to become normalised shortly after smart phone companies decided to do away with their headphone sockets. And speaker phones is just anti-social on public transport, but it's the same deal with that.

Passengers don't really want to vocally challenge some miscreant causing a noise nuisance but might be more confident pointing to a poster regarding noise nuisance.

 

[Meerkat]

Some parents will claim that their kids are autistic (which may or may not be true) and that this is a reason that they should be able to play Paw Patrol out loud (no consideration for other passengers who may be neurodivergent). If you try to insist then they start filming you. No back-up from management.

Does autism prevent headphone use? I thought they were more likely to wear them - to block out stress inducing noise.
Absolutely agree with you needing back up from management. Are there any restrictions on filming people, staff in particular, on board trains? Anything defamatory/threatening that is posted anywhere should be chased down by employers (shouldn’t the unions also be doing this?).

Maybe this is something useful GBR could do. Set standards and have a central investigation/legal team that protects staff and goes after private prosecutions of anyone attacking or threatening them.

 

[Harpo]

If the guards insist that they are a safety role….

No. The law insists. See the Railways (Safety Critical Work) Regulations.

 

[Krokodil]

Are there any restrictions on filming people, staff in particular, on board trains?

Not really (so long as it's not for commercial use). Countries like Switzerland have much stricter laws.