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Why do trams not require license plates?

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mb88

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As above. Always been curious as to the reason/legislation behind this. Surely as they travel on the public highway they should be required to have a license plate?

As an aside to this, what are the legalities around driver licensing? I know that tram operators all specify that a car license is needed, but is this just company policy or is there legislation around this? Could you feasibly drive a tram without a license?
 
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Mcr Warrior

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As above. Always been curious as to the reason/legislation behind this. Surely as they travel on the public highway they should be required to have a license plate?
Good question, but is a tram a 'motor vehicle'?

If a "tram" is instead considered to be a carriage used on a roadway, this by virtue of the Light Railways Act, and so having its own definition, it could, I would suggest, be argued that it isn't a motor vehicle as such, and so the legal requirement to display number plates (which applies to 'motor vehicles' used on a public road) therefore doesn't apply.

Anyone agree or consider otherwise?
 

mb88

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Good question, but is a tram a 'motor vehicle'?

If a "tram" is instead considered to be a carriage used on a roadway, this by virtue of the Light Railways Act, and so having its own definition, it could, I would suggest, be argued that it isn't a motor vehicle as such, and so the legal requirement to display number plates (which applies to 'motor vehicles' used on a public road) therefore doesn't apply.

Anyone agree or consider otherwise?
Good answer! I know historically trams have never carried a license plate. What about trolley buses?
 

Trainbike46

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The important question is: what would having licence plates achieve? As far as I can tell, the answer is "nothing at all," and that's probably why they don't have them
 

Farigiraf

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Brings up an interesting thought of if trains/trams were used like cars

This is the police, please pull over into the sidings and show us your license!
 

AndrewE

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My guess would be that cars have a massively dispersed ownership, and to keep tabs on them for safe maintainance or the testing required (nowadays) they all have to have a unique ID. Taxation opportunuty too!

I like to imagine that a trams would be part of a relatively small fleet with professional standards of maintainance, as if they fall apart in service the reputational damage can sink the firm, so there is no point trying to impose more bureaucracy.
 

edwin_m

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Maybe something to do with the historic legislation that required tramways to be responsible for the maintenance of the surface between their rails and for (I think) 18 inches each side. So technically they didn't run on the public roads at all.
 

Merthyr Imp

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A quick look at Wikipedia gives the information that "vehicle registration plates are compulsory for motor vehicles used on public roads."

Another Wikipedia entry gives the definition of 'motor vehicles' as "a self-propelled land vehicle, commonly wheeled, that does not operate on rails (such as trains or trams)." So that would explain why trolleybuses had to have registrations but not trams.
 

YorksLad12

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Trams do have identifying numbers on them. In Sheffield's case, seven of them have a TOPS classification.
 

Roger1973

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Yes, trams in the UK have never carried registration numbers, and their drivers were not licensed either as part of the motor vehicle (car) licensing system or via the Traffic Commissioners' PSV licensing system.

I can't think of any tram system where the trams never carried fleet numbers fairly prominently, but not sure if this was a legal requirement.

Prior to the new generation of trams appearing at Blackpool, many tram drivers also held PSV / PCV driving licences, but that was because they had previously been bus drivers, or were employed mainly as bus drivers but drove trams in the summer. (I don't know if that's still the case.)

Likewise, 'first generation' tram conductors did not need a PSV conductor licence (when they were still a thing) although most if not all of Blackpool's did for operational flexibility.

I'm less sure how common 'dual badge' crews were on other 'first generation' tramways.

It's only come in for the most recent generation of trams (possibly when new laws were drafted when the second generation of trams were being planned?) that tram drivers were required to hold a car driving licence first - and I think the few existing tram drivers who didn't were allowed 'grandfather rights' to continue driving - I seem to remember something in enthusiast media some years back when the last Blackpool tram driver who had never had a licence to drive motor vehicles retired (from memory, he'd moved from Sheffield or Leeds when their trams went, rather than go bus driving.)

Everything around trams was and is subject to approval by the board of trade / railway inspectorate / whatever it's called now - this would include driver training and testing.

Trolleybuses are different - they were road vehicles, but not motor vehicles - they carried registration number plates, and trolleybuses were a class on a normal driving licence (issued by local authorities before DVLA was set up in the 70s), but in some respects they were subject to 'light railway' law not road traffic law. Drivers and conductors were licensed by the local authority (or in London by the Metropolitan Police's Public Carriage Office) rather than via the Traffic Commissioners, so again if they had a PSV licence / badge, this was so they could also work buses (some operators ran both and were that flexible. In London, trolleybuses were part of the 'tram and trolleybus' department which was separate from the central bus department until 1950, the terms + conditions were different and the uniform subtly different so at one stage, the two did not mix. As the conversion plan got going, there were a few depots / garages that temporarily operated trolleybuses and buses at the same time, so there was a short time when crews who had nominally become bus crews could work overtime / rest days on trolleybuses.)


I understand that the law / driving licence class for trolleybuses stayed in existence for a decade or two after the UK's last trolleybuses ran, but I think the relevant laws have lapsed - it may have happened in the early 90s when the driving licence classes changed and the old separate PSV licence became class D on the Swansea issued licence. (this is from memory so may be adrift.)
 

507 001

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Simply put they are not required to be registered with the DVLA, and therefore do not require a registration, or number plate (not a license plate in the UK).

Suspect it may have something to do with us not actually running on the public highway, rather our own infrastructure that happens to be buried in the public Highway.

There are other countries that require trams to carry plates though.
 

edwin_m

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The only "tram"s I'm aware of that carry number plates are the rubber-tyred bus/tram hybrids formerly used by Nancy.
The similar system in Caen also had them. Both were able to operate as unguided vehicles, though at Caen this was only used for access to the depot.

Looking at a quick image search, some but not all of the Translohr systems have registration plates. These can't operate unguided, but I guess rules vary as to whether they qualify as road vehicles.
 

contrex

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No, because unlike here they spell the noun with an S, so they have license plates :) .
Quite. The plates UK-registered cars display front and rear do not imply any licensing (verb gerund) status, do they? They show the car's registration number, so why not (crazy idea I know!) call them 'number plates'?
 
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Shimbleshanks

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What would happen if there was a need to identify a tram that had been involved in an incident on the road and had failed to stop, for whatever reason? How would they go about identifying a tram driver that had committed a road traffic offence? Would any witnesses think to take the tram number or even know what it was?
 

owidoe

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What would happen if there was a need to identify a tram that had been involved in an incident on the road and had failed to stop, for whatever reason? How would they go about identifying a tram driver that had committed a road traffic offence? Would any witnesses think to take the tram number or even know what it was?
I can't imagine a tram hit-and-run. Besides, the signalling system would have records of which trams were were at what time.
 

mb88

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That’s for all those who have posted helpful responses, very interesting.
 

Trainbike46

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What would happen if there was a need to identify a tram that had been involved in an incident on the road and had failed to stop, for whatever reason? How would they go about identifying a tram driver that had committed a road traffic offence? Would any witnesses think to take the tram number or even know what it was?
Time and location should make it very easy for the tram operating company to identify the driver involved

I can't imagine a tram hit-and-run. Besides, the signalling system would have records of which trams were were at what time.
Ah, I see you were ahead of me!
 

Taunton

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I like to imagine that a trams would be part of a relatively small fleet with professional standards of maintenance, as if they fall apart in service the reputational damage can sink the firm
This didn't stop some "traditional" urban tramways in the late 1940s falling into appalling condition at the end, lights failed at night, broken or boarded-up windows but still in service, etc. Deteriorated track, with regular derailments, but just go to the other end, drive it back a few feet, conductor and volunteer passengers heaving at one side, it normally went back on.

Motor vehicles required numberplates after the Motor Car Act 1903, but trams were already covered by the Light Railways Act 1896, so were omitted. There was no national number scheme - Manchester and Salford, whose systems and routes had considerable inter-running, had many duplicate numbers on superficially similar tramcars, both painted red.

I believe quite a number of tram drivers in Glasgow, which finally shut down in 1962, either couldn't pass the bus driving test or didn't want to, with the heavy steering and crash gearboxes of the era, so transferred to the Glasgow Underground. When that closed in 1977 for modernisation most of them then retired. You must bear in mind that into the 1950s having a car, and thus a driving licence, was something for the more wealthy members of society, which did not embrace potential bus (and lorry) drivers, and many of these came to the job with no licence at all and had to train from scratch - or having been in the army had done this for some, where the military had faced a similar problem.
 
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AndyPJG

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Maybe something to do with the historic legislation that required tramways to be responsible for the maintenance of the surface between their rails and for (I think) 18 inches each side. So technically they didn't run on the public roads at all.
Is the correct answer. Tramway Operators had to maintain their 'own' right of way rather than the highway authority who had to maintain the rest of the highway.
 

507 001

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What would happen if there was a need to identify a tram that had been involved in an incident on the road and had failed to stop, for whatever reason? How would they go about identifying a tram driver that had committed a road traffic offence? Would any witnesses think to take the tram number or even know what it was?

Would be fairly easy to identify a Metrolink vehicle, and you wouldn’t even need to delve into the signalling system to do it.

Every tram out there has a set number. The set number allows identification of a particular service in the working timetable. All you need is the time of the incident, and you can work out the set number and therefore vehicle number(s) from there.
 

blueberry11

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Why didn't anyone point out that in the UK, the number plates are white and yellow at the front and back respectively. They must be displayed in that order. Once the tram has to reverse (by the driver switching cabs at a terminus), it would break the number plate rules or have to switch plates.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Why didn't anyone point out that in the UK, the number plates are white and yellow at the front and back respectively. They must be displayed in that order. Once the tram has to reverse (by the driver switching cabs at a terminus), it would break the number plate rules or have to switch plates.
Probably because, as has already been established, trams don't have to have number plates in the UK? :s
 

krus_aragon

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Why didn't anyone point out that in the UK, the number plates are white and yellow at the front and back respectively. They must be displayed in that order. Once the tram has to reverse (by the driver switching cabs at a terminus), it would break the number plate rules or have to switch plates.

Probably because, as has already been established, trams don't have to have number plates in the UK? :s
Plus: historically, car number plates were the same colour front and rear, so it wouldn't have been an issue pre-1973.
 

blueberry11

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Probably because, as has already been established, trams don't have to have number plates in the UK? :s
I just needed to say the scenario if it were required as we have two different colours of number plates and must be displayed in the correct order as shown above
 

edwin_m

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I just needed to say the scenario if it were required as we have two different colours of number plates and must be displayed in the correct order as shown above
New regulations for tramways were drawn up in the 1990s and still exist today having needed relatively little modification despite going through three or four different owning organisations since then. If there had been a legal requirement for trams to carry number plates then no doubt the regulations would have covered it, just as they did with things like requiring yellow reflectors on the ends of trams where other road vehicles had white at the back and red at the front.
 

507 001

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Why didn't anyone point out that in the UK, the number plates are white and yellow at the front and back respectively. They must be displayed in that order. Once the tram has to reverse (by the driver switching cabs at a terminus), it would break the number plate rules or have to switch plates.

Could always James Bond it.
 
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