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Why Does it Take Such Effort to Close Stations?

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whhistle

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... or why do parlimantary services even run?

Yes, I know some are used for training or almost empty stock moves but for other stations (Teeside Airport for example - just 30 people) where visitor numbers are low.

Why don't the ORR (or whoever) just close it?
From what I read, there needs to be huge consultations and even legal documents to close stations, so many remain open as it's just easier / cheaper. But surely the upkeep of the station outweighs this?

I guess I just don't understand why whoever decides, can't just put a notice up saying the station will close within 6 months and be done with it.

Yes, I know on this forum it's all about connecting and reopening, but some really do need to be closed. Perhaps any station that sees less than 1 person a day on average?
 
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PeterC

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The procedure for closing a station is prescribed in statute law. A change would require an act of parliament.
 

Bletchleyite

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To protect us from TOCs just deciding to do so on a whim? Once it's properly closed it's hard to get it back, for example it might have to be upgraded to comply with modern accessibility standards.
 

coppercapped

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Because in many cases, though not all, the original enabling Act of Parliament for the construction of the railway line also specified the stations. Therefore to close such a station it is necessary to cancel that part of the original enabling Act - just closing the station by hanging out a notice goes against the will of Parliament. The legal procedures have to be followed - as in all cases in life.
 

NSEFAN

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Isn't the lengthy and expensive consultation procedure in place to discourage short-termistic station and line closures? I can see why such procedures are in place given the mass cull of lines that happened in the mid-20th century. That said, things are quite different today, with most lines and stations enjoying increasing patronage, so it would be political suicide to close loss making routes now.
 

Bletchleyite

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Though sometimes there are *stations* obviously needing closure e.g. Norton Bridge which had it stayed open would have needed to be moved about a mile to the west.
 

whhistle

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Therefore to close such a station it is necessary to cancel that part of the original enabling Act - just closing the station by hanging out a notice goes against the will of Parliament. The legal procedures have to be followed - as in all cases in life.
A change in the law can be made within 14 days if required...
So however it needs to be done, why isn't it done, when it makes sense to do so?
 

Cherry_Picker

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Apparently it made sense to close Marylebone in the 1980s, it's positively booming now and will probably join the 20 million journeys a year club soon. Sometimes making stations difficult to close is a good thing.
 

Hadders

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In an ideal world we'd just get on and close things. But we don't live in an ideal world.

Organisations often try and take a short term approach when making a decision. British Rail were excellent at running down services to such a level that they could then claim no-one used them, there was no demand etc. Marylebone is an example as is the Settle & Carlisle Line. It's important that there are checks and balances to prevent this from happening and to make sure that all reasonable alternatives have been considered before a station is closed or service withdrawn.
 

Failed Unit

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A few others that could have gone Brigg, Kirton Lindsey and Gainsborough central. The passenger useage is low so let’s close it? Let’s give it a decent service and see if anyone uses it? Those stations would be gone by now.

Saying that Teeside airport I understand has nothing. My examples serve places with a population that would warrant a service every 2 hours in some areas.
 

PR1Berske

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A combination of reasons explained above. A TOC desiring to get rid of an awkward or otherwise problematic route, a local council eyeing up housing development opportunities, the long winded administrative layers between a station and its closure exist to predict the network from short-term whims.
 

tbtc

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things are quite different today, with most lines and stations enjoying increasing patronage, so it would be political suicide to close loss making routes now

I agree with the first part that I've quoted - most lines and stations have seen huge increases over the years.

But some lines and stations are stuck with "one man and his dog". And if they aren't attracting better numbers of passengers now (whilst other lines and stations have seen passenger numbers double) then will they ever?

If somewhere like Breich gets just a couple of passengers a week in 2017/2018 (despite the increases seen elsewhere) then when will it ever get enough passengers to warrant an increased service?
 

SwindonBert

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It's great that there's a stringent challenge to the closing of stations, but I think where there's very little usage & not likely to be in the foreseeable future - why not just close them. I am only talking of a handful, e.g. Coombe Junction Halt, hardly likely to be a rush on housing / employment in the area - no trains actually pass it (they stop short whilst reversing)
 

Bletchleyite

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It's great that there's a stringent challenge to the closing of stations, but I think where there's very little usage & not likely to be in the foreseeable future - why not just close them. I am only talking of a handful, e.g. Coombe Junction Halt, hardly likely to be a rush on housing / employment in the area - no trains actually pass it (they stop short whilst reversing)

Though as an unlit tiny station in an area of no doubt very low if any vandalism, keeping it open probably just costs about 100 yards' worth of fuel, so you might as well. People do travel to ride on obscure curiosities on lines like that.

Indeed, the rough quadrupling of usage (still to only 200 per year) might well be down to such people having seen it feature on Portillo's programme or similar.
 

coppercapped

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A change in the law can be made within 14 days if required...

For the mechanics of the action, you may be correct. But getting to a consensus of what is needed takes time.
So however it needs to be done, why isn't it done, when it makes sense to do so?
Because your view on what is sensible may not be shared by others, in fact they will certainly have other views on what is sensible. The legal process is there to ensure that weight is given to these various views and that any closures are not made on a whim but according to due process.
 

NSEFAN

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I agree with the first part that I've quoted - most lines and stations have seen huge increases over the years.

But some lines and stations are stuck with "one man and his dog". And if they aren't attracting better numbers of passengers now (whilst other lines and stations have seen passenger numbers double) then will they ever?

If somewhere like Breich gets just a couple of passengers a week in 2017/2018 (despite the increases seen elsewhere) then when will it ever get enough passengers to warrant an increased service?
It would be easy enough to find out if Breich would attract more passengers by stopping more trains there. Not many, but a few more in the peaks to start with so that there's services to both Glasgow and Edinburgh to make it more convenient. If usage picks up considerably then at the very least the improved service can remain. Otherwise, it's a pretty good indicator that it's a lost cause.

IIRC the Swindon-Westbury via Melksham "TransWilts" service started out on this basis, and the popularity was such that more trains were later added. This is obviously different to Breich, but proves a general point that improving a service on a temporary basis can be useful when deciding on the future of parlimentary trains.
 

tbtc

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Though as an unlit tiny station in an area of no doubt very low if any vandalism, keeping it open probably just costs about 100 yards' worth of fuel, so you might as well. People do travel to ride on obscure curiosities on lines like that.

Indeed, the rough quadrupling of usage (still to only 200 per year) might well be down to such people having seen it feature on Portillo's programme or similar.

If you want to keep stations open so that people can travel there as a curio then that's one thing (seems a waste of resources to me, but maybe Railway Hipsters are a significant enough market?), but eventually there comes a time where line upgrades (e.g. electrification at Breich) or failing infrastructure (e.g. the footbridge at Tees Valley Airport) mean we have to bite the bullet and decide whether to improve it to modern standards of just close it.

It would be easy enough to find out if Breich would attract more passengers by stopping more trains there. Not many, but a few more in the peaks to start with so that there's services to both Glasgow and Edinburgh to make it more convenient. If usage picks up considerably then at the very least the improved service can remain. Otherwise, it's a pretty good indicator that it's a lost cause.

IIRC the Swindon-Westbury via Melksham "TransWilts" service started out on this basis, and the popularity was such that more trains were later added. This is obviously different to Breich, but proves a general point that improving a service on a temporary basis can be useful when deciding on the future of parlimentary trains.

Fair enough, as long as there's a quantifiable approach taken to a "use it or lose it" improvement.

Do you give it a year? Three years? Five? How many additional services would be required? Would the kind of people who contribute to a thread like this accept closing stations (or lines) if they were demonstrably proven to have failed to reach a certain threshold of passengers? Or would there be excuses along the lines of "if only we'd kept it open another few years and stopped even more services there" plus maybe some stuff along the lines of "ah, but not every passengers with a Day Rover was counted, and some people might have bought a ticket to the station beyond it, so really useage is higher than the official figures"?

I'm happy with what you are suggesting, as long as there's an end in sight, should numbers not pick up sufficiently.
 

snowball

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A change in the law can be made within 14 days if required...
So however it needs to be done, why isn't it done, when it makes sense to do so?
A change in the law can be made within 14 days if the government sees it as a top priority in relation to everything else it is doing at the time, and if it can get a majority of members of both houses of parliament to vote for it. The government would need to be willing to put up with the disruption to parliamentary business and the ill-feeling caused in and out of parliament by steamrollering it through.
 
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Bookd

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During the Victorian railway boom huge numbers of enabling acts of parliament were passed to open lines, as that was a priority at the time. An act to close a given station now would seem very simple in comparison but no doubt would be very low on parliament's to do list.
 

MarkyT

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During the Victorian railway boom huge numbers of enabling acts of parliament were passed to open lines, as that was a priority at the time. An act to close a given station now would seem very simple in comparison but no doubt would be very low on parliament's to do list.

In the 1960s and early 70s, Parliament also passed numerous railway closure acts, the process no doubt becoming somewhat repetitive and routine in the end. These simply extinguished the powers of the original enabling acts and were very effective for closure, but provided no effective way of preserving any rights of way. Often land relinquished had to be divided up piecemeal among original landowners. As to stations today, I'm glad there are solid protections, but equally there are many stations that contribute very little to the rail business or even to the communities they purport to serve. They often slow down trains on critical single track infrastructure where a better, faster and more regular service between more important centres on the lines concerned could otherwise be provided. Coordinated buses (or even autonomous pod taxis in the future) linking to a more limited number of more widely spaced hub stations could serve the surrounding settlements or industries much better, and actually be more convenient for users. A number of smaller stops on the Barnstaple line not far from me, I'm thinking of you here...
 
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yorksrob

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In answer to the OP's question, because at one time many years ago, the 'powers that be' decided that they could close stations with limited scrutiny and barely any accountability to either the general public or other stakeholders such as local authorities and business.

The political backlash this caused has ensured that railway closures, quite rightly remain politically toxic to this day.

And I, for one, am not complaining.
 

GRALISTAIR

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In answer to the OP's question, because at one time many years ago, the 'powers that be' decided that they could close stations with limited scrutiny and barely any accountability to either the general public or other stakeholders such as local authorities and business.

The political backlash this caused has ensured that railway closures, quite rightly remain politically toxic to this day.

And I, for one, am not complaining.

And me for 2 !!
 

whhistle

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Because your view on what is sensible may not be shared by others. The legal process is there to ensure that weight is given to these various views and that any closures are not made on a whim but according to due process.
No, but taking the example of Teeside Airport - do you think it's sensible to keep it open?

It's about being realistic.

Many people in our country are scared to do anything, which is why our country is held back on so much. Yes, when building lines like HS2, there needs to be much more thought but when there are stations, which such low useage, that are fairly near other stations, does it not make sense to just close them?


A change in the law can be made within 14 days if the government sees it as a top priority in relation to everything else it is doing at the time.
I woulnd't have thought it has to be a top priority.
You must remember there is a lot that goes through government in this way, and voting on it is simply a matter of procedure for politicians. No ill-feeling; it just happens.


Good discussion though :)
 

Barn

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The strange point for me is not how hard it is to fully close a station, but how comparatively easy it is to virtually close one by removing almost all of its services.
 

70014IronDuke

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IS Britain sclerotic? All these public enquiries and listening to the population stuff?

Should Britain take a leaf out of The Peoples Republic of China and its guide book on how to get things done?

Doubt they'd bother with Teeside Airport for long. They also build motorways and railways VERY rapidly. And please a lot of the people a lot of the time.

Mind you, bit of a problem is your house lies in the middle of the route - you have to sacrifice for the People then, pronto. They also run over a few protestors with tanks when necessary too.
 

70014IronDuke

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The strange point for me is not how hard it is to fully close a station, but how comparatively easy it is to virtually close one by removing almost all of its services.

Yes, but I'm sure the DfT only only allows this to happen to obscure stations with very, very limited traffic potential.

Like, eg Bedford for about three hours a day in the peaks heading/arriving to/from the north.
 

tsr

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Though as an unlit tiny station in an area of no doubt very low if any vandalism, keeping it open probably just costs about 100 yards' worth of fuel, so you might as well. People do travel to ride on obscure curiosities on lines like that.

Coombe Junction Halt does have upkeep costs - these will be to do with maintenance such as checking the help point and replacing posters, plus things like dispatch risk assessments... as well as unfortunately dealing with the odd bit of vandalism, which does in fact occur and will eventually need to be kept in check. When I was there last summer, the handset of the payphone had been torn from its cable and was nowhere to be seen, and any glass in the waiting shelter windows had long since vanished. This may be to do with the fact that a footpath runs through the station - in fact, basically two paths - and it's pretty out-of-the-way. On the other hand, you'd be right in assuming it's a simple structure. If there did need to be lighting, there is already a power supply to the floodlights for the ground frames, so I'm sure adding an LED light or three on the platform wouldn't be a great hardship.

When I walked away from the station, though, I was surprised at just how much there was in the vicinity. I hadn't really studied the maps properly, and judging by its reputation, I was expecting there to be a lane with absolutely nothing in the way of civilisation. Instead, there were quite a few houses in close proximity, cars passing every few minutes (alright, not exactly a busy road, but still...) and a few industrial units nearby.

Although access to Liskeard station from that side of the town isn't hard, there is obviously a steep hill between the two, and I think it would be prudent to consider how the facility could be improved for anyone wishing to travel to the south of the town. Unless you were to drastically remodel the railway, there's no way the reversal at Coombe is going to be eliminated, even though I believe there was possibly once an avoiding curve back in the mists of time. If I remember correctly, the rules of the signalling system in operation also makes reference to "station limits", which would be a bit difficult if you hadn't got a station!

Perhaps what needs to be done is to construct a low-cost, two-carriage platform somewhat closer to the nearby level crossing, so that the train stops within the platform whenever the reversal is done. This would shave a bit of time off the amount taken to faff around with drawing forwards into the platform, dispatch away from it, and clear the level crossing again, which isn't exactly instant. It would also mean that some risk is marginally reduced to the train crew, as they would potentially (depending on design) have a fixed platform and ramp to access the ground frame, avoiding the need to use what can be quite slippery cab steps. But best of all - the doors could be released in the platform whenever the train operates on the branch, meaning every train would call there. I am sure the local businesses wouldn't mind that at all, even if only one or two customers and staff used it. Better than the current situation!
 

richieb1971

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Kempston Hardwick has no access to anywhere without a car. Yet the line just 1/2 mile away is situated next to a mass distribution centre network of Asda and Sainbury's on one side with a retail park literally across the track on the other. Kempston Hardwick was built for brick workers for a site which was demolished in the 1980's and probably gets less than a couple 100 passengers per year. I truly believe by moving the station down the track it would generate a lot more revenue from shoppers and workers.

For the record its not half a mile to walk. You have to take the road route which is rural, has no pathway and is approximately 2 miles around. When people use the internet to find the nearest station and get dropped off there, they are in for a shock when all they see is fields.
 

Fawkes Cat

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It's ultimately a problem with how we write legislation - because Parliament is made up of human beings, it's easy for individual parliamentarians to demand the extreme - and sometimes it is easier for the government to concede, so that Parliament can move on to talk about something more important. (And it's not just parliamentarians - there are also civil servants, business and union interests, and pressure groups.)

And this leads to pendulum legislation, swinging from one extreme to another. A good example is the regulation of gambling: because casinos got out of control and into the hands of gangsters in the post-war years, in the 60s and 70s tight regulation was imposed. By the 1990s or 2000s, the organised crime problem had gone away from gambling so the law was greatly relaxed - and now we find high streets with multiple bookmakers, making all their money from high stake gambling machines. Regulation was too tight: so it has been relaxed but is now too loose. See also (arguably) alcohol licensing, dangerous dogs laws, and town and country planning.

It's the same with closing stations. Post-Beeching, we have a tight system to stop anyone running off with our stations (although as pointed out upthread, this doesn't stop them running off with a meaningful train service): pendulum legislation is liable to result in a position where it is easy to close - and suddenly not only are the basket cases shut, but so are useful if uneconomic operations.

The ideal would probably be simpler procedures to
- close basket cases
- allow the relocation of stations (was it really necessary to go through the closure procedure to move the Merseyrail Garston platforms to Liverpool South Parkway (nee Allerton)?)

while making it more difficult to
- cut a service down to a technically compliant but useless one train a week.
- close viable stations.
 
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