• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why does TfW operate the Manchester - Cardiff? Should XC run it?

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
1,972
Location
All around the network
I assume for historical reasons but since the majority of the service is in England and not Wales, why does TfW even want to operate it given it's not up to them to operate trains far into England. Is the route even profitable? Would it be better served by XC if they had enough units to operate it? Maybe in a GBR world this becomes a GB regional service (strange as Wales is technically GB with Scotland) and not a TfW service.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,682
I assume for historical reasons but since the majority of the service is in England and not Wales, why does TfW even want to operate it given it's not up to them to operate trains far into England. Is the route even profitable? Would it be better served by XC if they had enough units to operate it? Maybe in a GBR world this becomes a GB regional service (strange as Wales is technically GB with Scotland) and not a TfW service.
Its one of their biggsst money makers.
 

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
2,057
Not that it has to be a reason by itself (given that e.g. Northern's NE services are quite isolated from the rest of their network), but I doubt Northern / WMR want to run to Holyhead or Pwllheli so the TfW network would be split in two without it, unless they started running between Gloucester and Birmingham.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
14,887
Location
Isle of Man
I doubt Northern / WMR want to run to Holyhead or Pwllheli
The North Wales coast, the Blaenau Ffestiniog, and the Borderlands lines were all part of First North Western, and the lines to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli were Central Trains. So no reason why they couldn't slice it up like that again.

I can't for the life of me remember who did Manchester to Cardiff before the Wales & Borders franchise, was it Central Trains?
 

Galvanize

Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,116
Location
South East london
The North Wales coast, the Blaenau Ffestiniog, and the Borderlands lines were all part of First North Western, and the lines to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli were Central Trains. So no reason why they couldn't slice it up like that again.

I can't for the life of me remember who did Manchester to Cardiff before the Wales & Borders franchise, was it Central Trains?
Wales&West under their Alphaline branding.

W&W also had a small presence on the North Wales Coast in the FNW era, usually overnight or very early morning services connecting with sailings to/from Ireland at Holyhead.
 

Merthyr Imp

Member
Joined
24 May 2016
Messages
550
Location
Merthyr Tydfil
You have to remember that TfW is owned by the Welsh Government and there's an element of nationalism which believes all railways in Wales should be operated by a Welsh organisation. Without the Marches line, despite it running largely through England, to link them the Welsh railways would be in three isolated sections.

As it is, you get people with no knowledge of railway topography and history complaining that there are no direct rail links between north and south Wales without having to go into England.
 

WAB

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2015
Messages
1,108
Location
Anglia
I assume for historical reasons but since the majority of the service is in England and not Wales, why does TfW even want to operate it given it's not up to them to operate trains far into England. Is the route even profitable? Would it be better served by XC if they had enough units to operate it? Maybe in a GBR world this becomes a GB regional service (strange as Wales is technically GB with Scotland) and not a TfW service.
It's the Wales and Borders franchise for a reason. And as @The Planner says, it is a vital source of income - the Marches are the only profitable TfW route in any sense.
The North Wales coast, the Blaenau Ffestiniog, and the Borderlands lines were all part of First North Western, and the lines to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli were Central Trains. So no reason why they couldn't slice it up like that again.
If they're slicing up the network in line with the existing Network Rail route boundaries, this service group runs on Wales Route from Milford Haven to Nantwich - i.e., most of the distance is on NR Wales metals. You'd therefore expect the Wales unit to retain the route, although perhaps the North West unit would provide crews at Crewe and Manchester.
You have to remember that TfW is owned by the Welsh Government and there's an element of nationalism which believes all railways in Wales should be operated by a Welsh organisation. Without the Marches line, despite it running largely through England, to link them the Welsh railways would be in three isolated sections.
It's already clear to see what the consequences would be if the entire Welsh network was to become the peripheral parts of a number of operating units' networks. CrossCountry's service from Birmingham to Cardiff is pitiful. GWR are too keen to throw in the towel west of Cardiff. Avanti's service on the North Wales coast has been pretty comical. Neglect would follow through the peripherality of Wales in the context of England-based operating units, let alone the inability of the Welsh government to control the network and hold operators accountable.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
17,871
Location
East Anglia
I assume for historical reasons but since the majority of the service is in England and not Wales, why does TfW even want to operate it given it's not up to them to operate trains far into England. Is the route even profitable? Would it be better served by XC if they had enough units to operate it? Maybe in a GBR world this becomes a GB regional service (strange as Wales is technically GB with Scotland) and not a TfW service.

I have always thought it a perfect fit to be Welsh operated. Many continue to the South West Coast so a large proportion of the journey is within Wales. It also meets up with TfW North Wales-Manchester services at Piccadilly.

Cross Country services had to operate through Birmingham New Street. This was one of the reasons the Liverpool-Norwich or Trans-Pennine routes were never considered to be part of that franchise.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
4,872
Location
The Fens
You have to remember that TfW is owned by the Welsh Government and there's an element of nationalism which believes all railways in Wales should be operated by a Welsh organisation. Without the Marches line, despite it running largely through England, to link them the Welsh railways would be in three isolated sections.

As it is, you get people with no knowledge of railway topography and history complaining that there are no direct rail links between north and south Wales without having to go into England.
Another important thing to remember is that rail privatisation happened before devolution. The first elections to the Welsh Assembly were in 1999.
 

tfw756rider

Member
Joined
30 Nov 2024
Messages
274
Location
Wales
I have always thought it a perfect fit to be Welsh operated. Many continue to the South West Coast so a large proportion of the journey is within Wales.
Exactly - although Manchester to Cardiff is typically 11 English stations and up to 5 Welsh stations, it's one of the shorter versions of the service,

with the longer versions of it (Manchester to Swansea/Fishguard/Carmarthen/Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock, all of course via Cardiff) being typically 11 English stations and anything from 10, 19, 20 etc. and up to 24 Welsh stations.
 
Last edited:

GWVillager

Member
Joined
2 May 2022
Messages
833
Location
Wales & Western
I think it's also worth noting that the Marches (even Shropshire to an extent), are closely linked with Wales, and are in its "sphere of influence", so to speak. Places like Hereford probably pull more culturally from Cardiff than, say Birmingham, so it's not like TfW are sending trains to London or anything - they are mainly serving Wales and its environs, and that's more appropriate than it being some forgotten limb of another operator.
 

Merthyr Imp

Member
Joined
24 May 2016
Messages
550
Location
Merthyr Tydfil
I think it's also worth noting that the Marches (even Shropshire to an extent), are closely linked with Wales, and are in its "sphere of influence", so to speak.
And in the world of football in the 'olden days' clubs like Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford were allowed to compete in (and often win) the Welsh Cup.
 

TravelDream

Member
Joined
7 Aug 2016
Messages
853
Would it be better served by XC if they had enough units to operate it?

The route has always been operated by a 'Welsh' franchise. Originally Wales and West and then Wales and Borders.

Cardiff to Birmingham, conversely, was operated by Central trains and then XC.

Anyone who regularly has the misfortune of using XC from Cardiff would shudder at the thought.
In an ideal world, TFW would take over Cardiff to Birmingham/ Nottingham too.

GWR, comparatively, treats the South Wales main line quite well and clearly sees it as one of their main lines. It's only really west of Swansea where they'd clearly like to jettison their obligations.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
21,188
Cardiff to Birmingham, conversely, was operated by Central trains and then XC.
Cardiff to Birmingham was initially shared between Wales & West and Central Trains at privatisation, with the through trains from Nottingham to Cardiff run by Central Trains running alternate hours with Wales & West running Birmingham to Cardiff and West Wales. Later just run by Central Trains.

In an ideal world, TFW would take over Cardiff to Birmingham/ Nottingham too.
With no traincrew base in Birmingham or Nottingham that would result in problems fulfilling the service in disruption or at the ends of the day.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,048
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The route has always been operated by a 'Welsh' franchise. Originally Wales and West and then Wales and Borders.
At its lowest ebb in the 1970s (after intercity trains via Hereford/Severn Tunnel were diverted via Birmingham), BR Western operated a Cardiff-Crewe shuttle.
This was then gradually extended alternately to Manchester and Liverpool (the latter was then dropped and Manchester went hourly).
BR Regional Wales & West then extended one train a day from Crewe to Holyhead.
The W&W route also sported combined Manchester-Hereford-Severn Tunnel-Bristol/Waterloo/Penzance services run by 158s.

When the SRA created Wales & Borders (ATW) in 2003, services via the Severn Tunnel went to Wessex/FGW/GWR.
W&B/ATW also diverted Holyhead-Birmingham services via Wrexham and Shrewsbury.
Manchester-North Wales is no different to Manchester-South Wales in principle, and the Marches route, despite mostly being in England, is critical to the overall Welsh rail network.
It's also part of Network Rail's Wales route, and is planned to be signalled from Cardiff (Shrewsbury-Crewe and Shotton-Colwyn Bay already are).
 

TravelDream

Member
Joined
7 Aug 2016
Messages
853
Cardiff to Birmingham was initially shared between Wales & West and Central Trains at privatisation, with the through trains from Nottingham to Cardiff run by Central Trains running alternate hours with Wales & West running Birmingham to Cardiff and West Wales. Later just run by Central Trains.
Of course. I was just thinking of the Central operation and forgot that W&W also ran it.

With no traincrew base in Birmingham or Nottingham that would result in problems fulfilling the service in disruption or at the ends of the day.

A minor and temporary issue no doubt. And a TFW takeover would likely see the route cut at Birmingham.
 

amahy

Member
Joined
9 Dec 2024
Messages
88
Location
West Yorkshire
As a user of this route fairly frequently, while its TOC makes sense, it is incredibly annoying hearing Welsh announcements before English, especially when the train is still in England! If you were a slower, less able passenger, unfamiliar with the route, you could end up missing your stop, as the English "this is X" announcement sometimes comes after the train has already left the station, if the guard is quick!

Going slightly off topic, this problem is especially prominent on the Chester to Crewe, Shrewsbury to Crewe, and Chester to Liverpool routes, all operated by TfW entirely in England, with Welsh announcements first.
 

chrisjo

Member
Joined
18 May 2024
Messages
197
Location
Cymru
As a user of this route fairly frequently, while its TOC makes sense, it is incredibly annoying hearing Welsh announcements before English, especially when the train is still in England! If you were a slower, less able passenger, unfamiliar with the route, you could end up missing your stop, as the English "this is X" announcement sometimes comes after the train has already left the station, if the guard is quick!

Going slightly off topic, this problem is especially prominent on the Chester to Crewe, Shrewsbury to Crewe, and Chester to Liverpool routes, all operated by TfW entirely in England, with Welsh announcements first.
We know what comes next, we've heard it all before ...... "all the announcements were in English until they saw me getting on, then they started speaking Welsh"
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
1,472
Location
Newport
At its lowest ebb in the 1970s (after intercity trains via Hereford/Severn Tunnel were diverted via Birmingham), BR Western operated a Cardiff-Crewe shuttle.
‘Shuttle’ is overly generous. 4 daytime DMUs each way plus the mails at 2000 north & 0147 south. I suspect it was supposed to whither and die but forgot to.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,532
Here we go again. Every time this comes up, people can't suggest a better option for it than leaving it with TfW.

One story about the route from the early days of privatisation does amuse me though. When the 100s of drivers based at Crewe under BR were split up into various links ready for privatisation, the vast majority went to freight. Crewe lost all it's InterCity work, and only a small link of 18 were left to work Regional Railways services - which became the Wales & West depot, to work Manchester/Liverpool - Cardiff, plus Heart of Wales and Crewe - Shrewsbury local services. The drivers who chose that link over the freight were told that they were mad, such a small depot would be closed in no time.

Today, there's over 90 drivers based at that same depot. And still nobody can find a better logistical way of covering the Marches.
 
Joined
8 Feb 2023
Messages
184
Location
West Sussex
I think in many ways, it makes sense to be TfW, given that with the extensions, it is extensively in Wales. On top of that, it shares the same route with North to South Wales trains as far as Shrewsbury, so it would be quite awkward to have those services operated entirely separately by different companies, In many ways though while extensions to Swansea do make perfect sense, it is a case where some of the extensions to Milford do probably make the service much longer than it needs to be, but when it is operating a service largely for welsh people, then any welsh nationalist will easily argue that it should remain TfW instead of transferring, which would create new difficulties. Currently, the stock can be easily shared, even interun (E.G. An arrival to Cardiff from Manchester can then become a Holyhead train, or vice versa) I suppose if they needed to, and a transfer would end that ability immediately.

Obviously in a scenario where say if the Marches line had been shut down by Beeching, and Cardiff to Manchester trains were needed and had to run via Birmkngham, then in that scenario CrossCountry would have been the perfect operator.

With those people talking about Welsh train announcements, that is absolutely correct in England. Either they should swap order to English then Welsh in England, or the welsh announcements should be cut out completely in England, but the former idea would anger fewer welsh nationalists. The only thing is that while if there is one swap over on Cardiff to Manchester trains its not too bad, if its on North to South Wales services through England, to which the principle would apply, it might end up sounding messy and inconsistent, given it crosses the border a total of 4 times (North Wales Coast, Chester in England, Wrexham in Wales, Shrewsbury and Hereford in England, then finally Abergavenny, Newport and Cardiff in South Wales), which from a consistency perspective makes a uniform (Welsh then English) order easier to program into the train.
 

Sid Edwards

Member
Joined
12 Jan 2024
Messages
12
Location
Ravenglass
When I last travelled from Gobowen station in 2022, having lived in the village until 30 years previously, I was very annoyed to hear constant platform announcements in Welsh as well as English, when the station is definitely in Shropshire.

If it was at Knighton where the town sits on the border I would have accepted it but not somewhere totally in England.

Having spent many years in the past dealing with Mid Wales locations and the local people I have always had respect and sympathy for the Welsh but finding repeated Welsh announcements, especially as my train was delayed was a bit over the top!
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
1,472
Location
Newport
Would it be better served by XC if they had enough units to operate it?
I’ve spotted the Oxymoron. You appear to have used ‘better’ and ‘XC’ in the same sentence.

Why on earth would anyone want to reduce the excellent Marches services to the staggeringly poor, small and unreliable product that XC occasionally remembers to operate to Cardiff??
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
4,604
Would it be better served by XC
Let’s think about that question.

TfW uses high quality Mark 4 stock, together with a buffet and restaurant service on several of its services. The other services have some better seating at 2+1 that comes without a supplement for standard class passengers.

XC has Voyagers with a trolley that you might see if you are lucky.

Fares, esp booked in advance are very reasonable, including first class fares.

XC fares appear, by my perception, much more expensive.

Frequency of Cardiff to Manchester is exactly the same as Bristol to Manchester, so it’s unlikely XC would offer any benefit there.

So really I can only see downsides to changing the operator to XC.
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
4,284
I find this a very odd question. Why should a Wales operator be limited to only running within their own country and no cross-border services?
 

TorriDan

New Member
Joined
23 Feb 2025
Messages
1
Location
Chippenham
Let’s think about that question.

TfW uses high quality Mark 4 stock, together with a buffet and restaurant service on several of its services. The other services have some better seating at 2+1 that comes without a supplement for standard class passengers.

XC has Voyagers with a trolley that you might see if you are lucky.

Fares, esp booked in advance are very reasonable, including first class fares.

XC fares appear, by my perception, much more expensive.

Frequency of Cardiff to Manchester is exactly the same as Bristol to Manchester, so it’s unlikely XC would offer any benefit there.

So really I can only see downsides to changing the operator to XC.
You just have to look at the Trainline fares between Bristol and NW England and Scotland to see TFW provides much needed competition to XC trains. XC undersized and infrequent trains have no need to offer cheap fares and the regulator either doesn't know or care.
You can actually book bikes on TFW services too!
 

Top