Why does the barcode on e-tickets have to be shown?

[MrJeeves]

Which is what I was doing quite happily on Trainsplit until they moved the goalposts. I appreciate they have their reasons, some sort of fraud prevention I gather, with the unfortunate side effect of spoiling it for everyone. Such is life these days.

For what it's worth, paper tickets are available again now.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just for info eTickets make up the vast majority of tickets sold so "spoiling it for everyone" is really not a thing

 

[Brissle Girl]

Why does the barcode have to be shown? Why can't you just write down the 11 character reference under the barcode? Presumably the barcode just makes it convenient for staff to scan it, but they could type in the code into a machine if you don't have the barcode. That would mean people without printers or phones could use e-tickets.

Because it would be incredibly inefficient in terms of gateline and ticket checking, which for a valid ticket needs to be a very rapid process, taking a second or two. I think you need to accept that if you want to use the e-ticket facility you have to meet the requirements to do so. And if not revert to the more traditional paper option.

 

[redreni]

Just for info eTickets make up the vast majority of tickets sold so "spoiling it for everyone" is really not a thing

Do you know what proportion of paper ticket sales are down to the customer choosing paper tickets having been offered an e-ticket?

I use paper tickets more often than e-tickets but that's only because the tickets I buy aren't offered as e-tickets.

Just interested in how the ToD sales break down between customer's choice vs TfL's intransigence (and the few remaining, seemingly random instances where the fare setter has decided, arbitrarily, not to flag a fare for e-ticket fulfillment)?

 

[Haywain]

Do you know what proportion of paper ticket sales are down to the customer choosing paper tickets having been offered an e-ticket?

That will be impossible to know. What we do know, however, is that when given the choice a huge proportion will choose eTickets.

 

[Bungle965]

Works fine on Trenitalia. Most people show a barcode, but for those who can’t, you can quote the reference.

True although that tends to be most common on IC services (from my experience anyway) where there's plenty of time between stops.

I don‘t think I have ever seen this on regional services.

I think almost every daily ticket is available on paper, though? Possile exceptions are some Lumo tickets (available as eTicket only)

Interesting, I presume they get away with this because they’re open access?

 

[Adam Williams]

Interesting, I presume they get away with this because they’re open access?

I know of at least one other example (which Alistair may also be aware of) fare-set by an NRC-TOC (i.e. not an Open Access operator) with ToD fulfilment prevented. I suspect it may be set-up mistakenly to be E-Ticket only, but it's a useful test case for making sure that systems can handle this scenario.

Again though, this is just RCS in a nutshell, it's anything but consistent.

 

[redreni]

Works fine on Trenitalia. Most people show a barcode, but for those who can’t, you can quote the reference.

True although that tends to be most common on IC services (from my experience anyway) where there's plenty of time between stops.

Maybe as a courtesy to those passengers who have spent more than a certain amount per passenger person leg on their ticket, the railway ought to be prepared to take the time and trouble to verify the ticket manually if, for whatever reason, the passenger can produce evidence of the booking but not the actual barcode.

Making people pay again because the screen on their phone is cracked and the barcode can't be read, for example, isn't a good look when it's perfectly obvious they've booked and paid for the journey they are making.

I know discretion can be, and often is, shown, but it only takes a few cases where it isn't to make a certain kind of passenger very anxious about travelling by train.

 

[OscarH]

I know of at least one other example (which Alistair may also be aware of) fare-set by an NRC-TOC (i.e. not an Open Access operator) with ToD fulfilment prevented. I suspect it may be set-up mistakenly to be E-Ticket only, but it's a useful test case for making sure that systems can handle this scenario.

Again though, this is just RCS in a nutshell, it's anything but consistent.

I always assumed that was intentional to be honest, though it could not be. Usually the ticket level data is pretty good, unlike the flow level data.

Is there any rules about TOCs preventing ToD on custom TOC-specific advance products?

 

[Wallsendmag]

There's always ScotRail with their Carnet Tickets on Smartcard which they don't allow anyone else to retail.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Maybe as a courtesy to those passengers who have spent more than a certain amount per passenger person leg on their ticket, the railway ought to be prepared to take the time and trouble to verify the ticket manually if, for whatever reason, the passenger can produce evidence of the booking but not the actual barcode.

Making people pay again because the screen on their phone is cracked and the barcode can't be read, for example, isn't a good look when it's perfectly obvious they've booked and paid for the journey they are making.

I know discretion can be, and often is, shown, but it only takes a few cases where it isn't to make a certain kind of passenger very anxious about travelling by train.

The difficulty is, what happens as more and more people get to realise they don’t need a ticket and only carry the reference. Eventually ticket collection and gateline throughput slows down to the point whereby (for the latter) queues build up and more staff are required. (And revenue collection on board is reduced as it takes longer to get through a busy train.)

 

[Benjwri]

It's also worth remembering part of TfL's issue with e-tickets is the very small slow down they cause at gates. Allowing a code to be used would remove any chance of ever eliminating TOD.

 

[trainophile]

So buy the Advance ticket from a different site and collect it from the station?

Which is what I did, reluctantly as I have a great feeling of loyalty to Trainsplit as they've been excellent with any of my issues over the years.

Every journey is available as a paper ticket.

Yes but if you want an Advance that might not be available by the time you get to a station, and almost certainly won't be on the day of travel, you have to buy it online.

For what it's worth, paper tickets are available again now.

Pleased to hear it.

 

[redreni]

The difficulty is, what happens as more and more people get to realise they don’t need a ticket and only carry the reference. Eventually ticket collection and gateline throughput slows down to the point whereby (for the latter) queues build up and more staff are required. (And revenue collection on board is reduced as it takes longer to get through a busy train.)

I don't see why a significant number of people would want to do that. You make your booking, they send your tickets through to your phone. That's what you show them whenever tickets are checked.

 

[Adam Williams]

I always assumed that was intentional to be honest, though it could not be

The reason I don't think it is, is because CCST fulfilment is permitted, so you could theoretically buy it from a TVM.

 

[redreni]

It's also worth remembering part of TfL's issue with e-tickets is the very small slow down they cause at gates. Allowing a code to be used would remove any chance of ever eliminating TOD.

All I'm suggesting is guards and National Rail gateline staff on longer distance routes with higher fares should be able to verify e-tickets without the barcode.

I don't think it'd be a massive reputational risk to the railway if passengers could make a cross-London transfer on an e-ticket, but not without the barcode. In fact I'd be fine with that. It'd be better than the current situation. The person with the cracked phone screen would just have to pay a couple of quid extra for the tube transfer.

 

[Benjwri]

All I'm suggesting is guards and National Rail gateline staff on longer distance routes with higher fares should be able to verify e-tickets without the barcode.

But how do you differentiate when you can and can't use the code? You risk making an uneededly complicated system more complicated

 

[trainophile]

Just reading on X/Twitter that New Look, the fashion shop, have been telling people they are changing to email receipts only. However the vast majority of replies are saying they have refused to give their email address, threatened to leave their purchase, and been given a printed receipt after all. I know it's a totally different scenario but many people simply don't like having to cope with technology when life used to be so simple.

 

[trebor79]

So don’t buy one then. If you’re not able to use the e-ticket, buy a paper ticket from somewhere that will sell you one.

Many places won't give you that option. For example Greater Anglia app used to force e-tickets (and before that the dreaded m-tickets), and their website does too. Previously the website would default to e-tickets but you could click through to a screen to select TOD and other methods. That's been removed, it's e-tickets or nowt.

Just for info eTickets make up the vast majority of tickets sold so "spoiling it for everyone" is really not a thing

I would suggest it's hardly surprising they make up the majority of tickets sold when the industry is making it difficult to access other tickets types. That doesn't mean they are preferably passengers.

 

[Peakrider]

Is MegaTrain still going?

I've definitely travelled from Waterloo to Weymouth on a reference number written on a bit of paper before.

Megatrain was a Stagecoach thing linked to their Megabus. Now that they no longer run trains that site only offers coach tickets.

 

[Haywain]

I would suggest it's hardly surprising they make up the majority of tickets sold when the industry is making it difficult to access other tickets types. That doesn't mean they are preferably passengers.

Making it difficult to access other ticket types or giving people what they want?

 

[redreni]

But how do you differentiate when you can and can't use the code? You risk making an uneededly complicated system more complicated

You tell people they need the barcode, but then you waive that requirement for customers who have paid more than a certain amount, provided you are able (with a little extra effort) to verify their ticket without the barcode. You don't need to tell people. You just do it.

Other businesses waive rules for their more valued customers all the time.

 

[Haywain]

for customers who have paid more than a certain amount,

What amount? And how do you communicate that person A only needs a code while person B needs the barcode, even though they didn't need it last time they travelled? Can you not see how much confision and difficulty this would cause?

 

[TUC]

Just reading on X/Twitter that New Look, the fashion shop, have been telling people they are changing to email receipts only. However the vast majority of replies are saying they have refused to give their email address, threatened to leave their purchase, and been given a printed receipt after all. I know it's a totally different scenario but many people simply don't like having to cope with technology when life used to be so simple.

Rather silly of those customers in my opinion. Much easier to find an email receipt when you need it than a scrap of paper.

Many places won't give you that option. For example Greater Anglia app used to force e-tickets (and before that the dreaded m-tickets), and their website does too. Previously the website would default to e-tickets but you could click through to a screen to select TOD and other methods. That's been removed, it's e-tickets or nowt

Just checked the Greater Anglia website. It offered me e-tickets or TOD.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Just reading on X/Twitter that New Look, the fashion shop, have been telling people they are changing to email receipts only. However the vast majority of replies are saying they have refused to give their email address, threatened to leave their purchase, and been given a printed receipt after all. I know it's a totally different scenario but many people simply don't like having to cope with technology when life used to be so simple.

They are pushing it, but this post on X confirms that if people decline they should be given a paper receipt. (Image shows a post from NewLookHelp basically saying the above, and apologising if this wasn’t offered).

If I buy something of low value from a shop I’d much rather a paper receipt, than have to give my email and start getting spam emails. A new tv from John Lewis might be a different matter.

 

[Benjwri]

You don't need to tell people. You just do it.

Other businesses waive rules for their more valued customers all the time.

Having worked in 'other businesses', some rules are waived yes, but some are not. The ones that are not are once that create a precedent which could be harmful in future. All it takes is someone being allowed to use the code every journey, maybe the guard mentions they can, maybe they tell some of their friends, but then one of those people gets on a local train, and because there's no info on it they've been hit with a PFN.

If you're creating some unwritten rule about being able to use the code, anyone who does do that is still open to a Penalty Fare or Prosecution.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Another reason

You tell people they need the barcode, but then you waive that requirement for customers who have paid more than a certain amount, provided you are able (with a little extra effort) to verify their ticket without the barcode. You don't need to tell people. You just do it.

So a fully loaded nine car 801 (611 seats) arrives at Kings Cross, to find the gates in use and everyone only having the UTN rather than the barcode. How long is that going to take to clear with manual checking? (And updating the e-ticket Validation Database to mark the ticket as used)

 

[redreni]

MWhat amount? And how do you communicate that person A only needs a code while person B needs the barcode, even though they didn't need it last time they travelled? Can you not see how much confision and difficulty this would cause?

Not really, no.

Very few people ever find themselves in a position where they can show the reference number but not the barcode, since they receive both together. So it's hardly a floodgate everybody's going to surge through once they hear they don't need the barcode.

You could argue, therefore, that it's a non-issue, but what I'm saying is the negative publicity it can cause when it happens is out of all proportion to how rare it is. And when somebody paid £200 for their tickets and the story gets written up in the paper, it looks very bad.

So you don't change any rules, you put out industry guidance to waive the requirement to have the barcode where customers have paid more than, say, £50 per passenger per journey leg and the ticket can be verified another way (but they should be told they need the barcode next time and they risk being charged extra if they don't have it).

I can't see this is more confusing or less practical than the internal industry guidance on starting short on advances, for example.

Another reason

So a fully loaded nine car 801 (611 seats) arrives at Kings Cross, to find the gates in use and everyone only having the UTN rather than the barcode. How long is that going to take to clear with manual checking? (And updating the e-ticket Validation Database to mark the ticket as used)

Everyone? This is a wholly imaginary problem.

If I'm wrong and it's a real problem, the obvious solution surely would be for whoever first performs a ticket check (which absolutely shouldn't be the people at the gateline at the train's destination station) to print the barcode for the passenger once they've verified it.

 

[OscarH]

Rather silly of those customers in my opinion. Much easier to find an email receipt when you need it than a scrap of paper.

They may be easier to find, but unless they have keyboards or tablets facing customers to type themselves I would about it every time because dictating email addresses to cashiers is awful (especially for those ones that use + addressing or *@mydomain.com because they can't be trusted not to leak the emails)

Though this is probably going off topic

The reason I don't think it is, is because CCST fulfilment is permitted, so you could theoretically buy it from a TVM.

Hmm, that's a good point, perhaps for ticket offices if they wanted to avoid excluding people (I don't think the TOC has journey planning TVMs). But yeah, entirely possible they just missed a checkbox then

 

[Wallsendmag]

Don’t rely on TVMs or Ticket Offices for CCST.