Why does the nonstop Kings Cross to York not feel like a fast train?

[tornado]

I recently had the fortune/misfortune of using the ECML while the WCML was shut for engineering works. I noticed that my 1hr52 minute nonstop LNER from Kings Cross to York did not reach 125mph until nearly half an hour after leaving Kings Cross, however it was exactly on time at every location along that section. Later on it slowed to <100 mph at several points, yet arrived at York exactly on time.

Lumo, which doesn't even stop at York, takes 1hr54 to reach it.

This is very different to a nonstop from Euston to Warrington Bank Quay, which reaches 125mph 6 minutes after leaving Euston, and more or less maintains that speed throughout (I think?).

In the December 2025 timetable, the York nonstop will shorten by a few minutes, however I imagine that still won't mean continuous 125mph running for long periods.

Just curious why this is? I would have thought the ECML with its long straight stretches would have more continuous 125mph than the WCML. My feeling is it doesn't.

 

[jfollows]

The down fast ECML is 115mph from 7m73ch and 125mph from 23m15ch (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs March 25/London North Eastern Sectional Appendix March 2025.pdf) so a little bit further to full speed, yes.

WCML is EPS125 down fast from 7m60ch (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs March 25/London North Western (South) Sectional Appendix March 2025.pdf)

WCML has more curves that restrict speed to <125mph for short sections, though.

 

[Bayum]

Also, don’t forget that the ECML between Kings Cross and Peterborough/Cambridge flyover have a variety of trains using the fast lines that can’t achieve 125mph.

 

[tornado]

The down fast ECML is 115mph from 7m73ch and 125mph from 23m15ch (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs March 25/London North Eastern Sectional Appendix March 2025.pdf) so a little but further to full speed, yes.

WCML is EPS125 down fast from 7m60ch (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs March 25/London North Western (South) Sectional Appendix March 2025.pdf)

WCML has more curves that restrict speed to <125mph for short sections, though.

Interesting. Is there somewhere I could find what % overall is 125mph for the fast timetabled WCML London to Glasgow compared to the fast timetabled ECML London to Edinburgh? (perhaps excluding the flying scotsman)

 

[jfollows]

Interesting. Is there somewhere I could find what % overall is 125mph for the fast timetabled WCML London to Glasgow compared to the fast timetabled ECML London to Edinburgh? (perhaps excluding the flying scotsman)

In the links I provided?

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting. Is there somewhere I could find what % overall is 125mph for the fast timetabled WCML London to Glasgow compared to the fast timetabled ECML London to Edinburgh? (perhaps excluding the flying scotsman)

Same document - the Sectional Appendix but the 3 you want are: London North Western (South), London North Western (North) and Scotland ones which cover the WCML rather than the London North Eastern & Continental and Scotland ones which cover the ECML.

 

[jfollows]

Oh, yes, all at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ators/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/

Or search for “sectional appendix”

 

[Peter0124]

On the north side of both lines, the ECML reaches 125mph at Prestonpans (8 minutes in) whereas the WCML from Glasgow reaches it at Carstairs (24 minutes in). IIRC

Not sure if Edinburgh WCML reaches it sooner or if both are at Carstairs.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not sure if Edinburgh WCML reaches it sooner or if both are at Carstairs.

Carstairs, it's a bit of a drag between Edinburgh and Carstairs to be honest.

 

[GingerSte]

I'm sure I did KX to York in 90 minutes (as a passenger), some time in the GNER days.

Mind you, I also think we probably did a bit over the linespeed in places on that journey. I think the driver on the day was well motivated!

 

[hexagon789]

I'm sure I did KX to York in 90 minutes (as a passenger), some time in the GNER days.

Mind you, I also think we probably did a bit over the linespeed in places on that journey. I think the driver on the day was well motivated!

90 mins would be an average of 125.67mph

The fastest booked schedule was 1h40 (113.1mph) by the Scottish Pullman in the 1990s, part of the 3h59 London to Edinburgh schedule (98.7mph).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is one reason for it not feeling as fast that the south WCML is quite curvy and so you do get a feeling of speed, particularly through Berkhamsted where between cant and tilt it feels like you're in a plane? The ECML by comparison is quite straight.

 

[Magdalia]

I recently had the fortune/misfortune of using the ECML while the WCML was shut for engineering works. I noticed that my 1hr52 minute nonstop LNER from Kings Cross to York did not reach 125mph until nearly half an hour after leaving Kings Cross

As has already been stated, 125mph on the ECML starts at Woolmer Green, just over 23 miles from Kings Cross. With a clear run a 100mph EMU will do that in about 17 minutes. With a clear run it won't take half an hour to get to 125mph. Maybe you were following a Cambridge train until Hitchin?

There are various geographical and historical reasons for this.

Also, don’t forget that the ECML between Kings Cross and Peterborough/Cambridge flyover have a variety of trains using the fast lines that can’t achieve 125mph.

This is one of them, and it has pertained going back to the days of steam hauled ECML expresses sharing the fast lines with suburban traffic to the Cambridge branch.

Furthermore, the 2 track section over Digswell viaduct means that going much faster than that suburban traffic doesn't achieve very much in terms of reduced journey times or increased capacity utilisation.

Another important factor is the 8 miles of 1/200 gradient from Wood Green to Potters Bar, where, for most of history, traction has been the constraint on speed, not track.

Then add in that there are 8 tunnels between Kings Cross and Woolmer Green. I'm not an expert on the aerodynamics of 2 trains passing at 125mph in a Victorian tunnel, but it is definitely an issue at the New Southgate and Welwyn tunnels.

On the other hand, once past Woolmer Green the ECML is 125mph uninterrupted for about 45 miles to Holme.

 

[The exile]

Is one reason for it not feeling as fast that the south WCML is quite curvy and so you do get a feeling of speed, particularly through Berkhamsted where between cant and tilt it feels like you're in a plane? The ECML by comparison is quite straight.

And had the worst non straight bits (at the southern end) progressively ironed out in the 60s and 70s .

 

[tornado]

I would say that the "feels slow" parts were also quite far into the journey, and based on previous experience, also certain sections all the way up to Edinburgh.

Would it be fair to say the WCML is fairly speed optimised given the terrain, and the ECML is held back by pathing issues?

 

[MatthewHutton]

The average speeds reached on both are extremely impressive given the top speed to be honest. Averaging 95mph or more with a 125mph top speed is very very good.

The fastest service is I believe the Chinese ones. Outside China the TGV from Paris to Lyon and Barcelona to Madrid average 150mph or a little more with a top speed of 186mph.

Then you have the Shinkansen which averages 135mph or so with a top speed of 178mph and everyone else is slower than that.

 

[Some guy]

I would say that the "feels slow" parts were also quite far into the journey, and based on previous experience, also certain sections all the way up to Edinburgh.

Would it be fair to say the WCML is fairly speed optimised given the terrain, and the ECML is held back by pathing issues?

It’s much better considering the curvature of the track. The fact a train can pass rugby at 125mph is an amazing achievement in itself. The west coast does have busier sections than the east coast especially the south

 

[brad465]

After the aforementioned 125mph not starting till north of Woolmer Green, there's also a 100-105mph section south of Peterborough that IIRC exists due to land stability issues, despite otherwise being straight. Then there are restrictions through Grantham and over the Newark flat crossing, although these are only short 100mph bits. Doncaster, while a fairly fast passage of 100-120mph, is rarely smooth going as there are train movements left, right and centre. After that it's full speed to York. The ECML though has much longer sections of 125mph though vs the WCML, as the flat terrain over much of its length up to and over the Vale of York provides plenty of straight running.

Is one reason for it not feeling as fast that the south WCML is quite curvy and so you do get a feeling of speed, particularly through Berkhamsted where between cant and tilt it feels like you're in a plane? The ECML by comparison is quite straight.

This feeling ironically makes the southern bit where its 115mph max feel faster than further north, as there are a fair few bends and also tunnels, where the noisy rush of air (and ears popping) also provides a faster feel.

Having a look on RTT the non-stop runs have about 10-15 minutes cumulative allowances, including both pathing and engineering, so in theory a non-stop run could be done in under 1h40m if absolutely nothing got in the way of such a service, but the allowances of course are needed.

 

[Efini92]

On the north side of both lines, the ECML reaches 125mph at Prestonpans (8 minutes in) whereas the WCML from Glasgow reaches it at Carstairs (24 minutes in). IIRC

Not sure if Edinburgh WCML reaches it sooner or if both are at Carstairs.

Both at carstairs.

 

[GingerSte]

90 mins would be an average of 125.67mph

The fastest booked schedule was 1h40 (113.1mph) by the Scottish Pullman in the 1990s, part of the 3h59 London to Edinburgh schedule (98.7mph).

I know it was quicker than 1:40, as it left a touch late and arrived early. I might be misremembering things from 20 years ago, but it was certainly closer to 90 mins than 100.

I couldn't give you the exact day or time, except it was early afternoon, and before the end of 2003. I know it was an HST. It was to either Aberdeen or Inverness (can't remember which). I also remember that it felt fast all the way (ie got up to a good speed quickly, and there was no slow running until reaching York). I did also suspect that we were perhaps going a bit faster than we should have been.

 

[devon_belle]

How is the track quality on the ECML at the moment compared to other mainlines? I haven't been on the ECML in a while, but on the GWML you get a distinct feeling of 'speed' because of the poor trackwork.

 

[Harpo]

there's also a 100-105mph section south of Peterborough that IIRC exists due to land stability issues, despite otherwise being straight.

Like some of the fen in Anglia, maintaining an acceptable ‘top’ (horizontal alignment) could well be a challenge.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The WCML also carries 110mph trains on the fast lines, both WMT 350s and now the 805/807 Everos.
There's also limits to 110 through Kilsby tunnel and 85 (I think) at Atherstone and Queensville (Stafford), and 80 through Crewe.
There's no EPS between Acton Grange and Wigan, so 110 max, often lower, and various limits over the hills (80 over Shap and Beattock).
Slow speeds north/east of Carstairs.
So the WCML is optimised to an extent but still limited in places, particularly north of Weaver Jn.
Most of the WCRM money was spent south of there.

 

[hexagon789]

I know it was quicker than 1:40, as it left a touch late and arrived early. I might be misremembering things from 20 years ago, but it was certainly closer to 90 mins than 100.

I couldn't give you the exact day or time, except it was early afternoon, and before the end of 2003. I know it was an HST. It was to either Aberdeen or Inverness (can't remember which). I also remember that it felt fast all the way (ie got up to a good speed quickly, and there was no slow running until reaching York). I did also suspect that we were perhaps going a bit faster than we should have been.

I'd be a bit sceptical of a 2+8 HST achieving even 1h40, given they cannot hold 125mph on the 1 in 200 gradients of much of the ECML as a IC225 can and the fact that the overspeed limiter would cut power at 132mph (on maximum wheels, the figure reduces as the wheels wear), unlike a 91 which will keep going to whatever the ASL is set to.

 

[3RDGEN]

The draft ECML December Timetable had the non-stop London - York at 1h 46min, if that happens it will be a faster average speed than the 1h 44min London - Warrington is currently booked for.

 

[Ian Umpleby]

The fastest London Kings Cross to York time in the Railway Performance Society Archive is 97m 10s achieved by 91011 in 1991. There was a lot of 130 mph+ running, with 133 mph maxima, as fully documented in Milepost magazine.

The fastest Azuma time is 101m 37s (c 100mins net) with 123 mph maximum.

East Coast down line 125 mph speeds total 241 miles and West Coast 257 miles
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Kite159]

The WCML also carries 110mph trains on the fast lines, both WMT 350s and now the 805/807 Everos.
There's also limits to 110 through Kilsby tunnel and 85 (I think) at Atherstone and Queensville (Stafford), and 80 through Crewe.
There's no EPS between Acton Grange and Wigan, so 110 max, often lower, and various limits over the hills (80 over Shap and Beattock).
Slow speeds north/east of Carstairs.
So the WCML is optimised to an extent but still limited in places, particularly north of Weaver Jn.
Most of the WCRM money was spent south of there.

I guess with a limited budget, it was better to spend the money on the sections used by more trains.

 

[notadriver]

Digswell viaduct a major problem almost a certainty to get checked down in both directions. 125 mph Woolmer Green but 120 through Offord then down to 105/100 through Holme. High chance of getting checked down through Peterborough due to great northern crossing to P2. Level crossings in Helpston area can check trains down. 115 stoke tunnel then 100 Grantham. 100 again at Newark. 115 Askham to Retford and 110 bawtry. 100 Doncaster. Enforced slower approaches to Darlington, Durham and Newcastle.

 

[yorkie]

I recently had the fortune/misfortune of using the ECML while the WCML was shut for engineering works. I noticed that my 1hr52 minute nonstop LNER from Kings Cross to York did not reach 125mph until nearly half an hour after leaving Kings Cross, however it was exactly on time at every location along that section. Later on it slowed to <100 mph at several points, yet arrived at York exactly on time.

Lumo, which doesn't even stop at York, takes 1hr54 to reach it.

This is very different to a nonstop from Euston to Warrington Bank Quay, which reaches 125mph 6 minutes after leaving Euston, and more or less maintains that speed throughout (I think?).

In the December 2025 timetable, the York nonstop will shorten by a few minutes, however I imagine that still won't mean continuous 125mph running for long periods.

Just curious why this is? I would have thought the ECML with its long straight stretches would have more continuous 125mph than the WCML. My feeling is it doesn't.

WBQ is 6 miles shorter than York, so at full speed it should take 3 mins less.

KGX to YRK is timed for 1h52 with plenty of slack time (or pathing as planners like to call it )

EUS to WBQ is timed for 1h44, but good luck actually achieving that; I looked at several trains at random and all of them were late into WBQ.

That's an 8 min difference, when it should only be 3. However, there's easily more than 5 mins additional slack time between KGX and YRK than there is between EUS and WBQ.

It's not uncommon for trains to depart KGX a minute early, grind to a halt at Finsbury Park (Thameslink seems to get priority), slow down at Peterborough (or between Huntingdon and Peterborough), slow down again at Doncaster, and yet still have to wait for a platform at York.

I'm sure I did KX to York in 90 minutes (as a passenger), some time in the GNER days.

In that case, you travelled on 26 September 1991, when British Rail ran an IC225, authorised to run at up to 140mph, which completed the London to Edinburgh journey in 3hr 29min. It passed York in around 90 min. If you travelled to York, then you didn't do it in 90 min.

 

[notadriver]

On the north side of both lines, the ECML reaches 125mph at Prestonpans (8 minutes in) whereas the WCML from Glasgow reaches it at Carstairs (24 minutes in). IIRC

Not sure if Edinburgh WCML reaches it sooner or if both are at Carstairs.

Only very short lengths of 125 mph line speed in Scotland. 115 usual max at prestonpans and a brief 120 possible after drem and Dunbar . Apart from that line speeds mostly in 95 mph range in Scotland.