Why doesn’t GWR run up to Birmingham or at least cover all of Worcestershire?

[lemonator140]

As someone from Worcester, ive wondered why GWR only service/stop at a handful of stations within Worcestershire, e.g Shrub, Foregate, Malvern, Pershore etc and not the rest of Worcestershire such as Droitwich, Hartlebury, Kidderminster etc or at least service until Birmingham.

Historically these would have been GWR stations as well as West Midlands trains being able to prioritise for travel within the West Midlands county rather than the region as a whole. would it also not allow for more ease by having all of Worcestershire connected by a single train company rather than two differing ones? also could bring back direct london trains for towns like Kidderminster for example?

Just something that’s popped up in my mind recently and never knew the answer to

 

[The exile]

As someone from Worcester, ive wondered why GWR only service/stop at a handful of stations within Worcestershire….

Historically these would have been GWR stations as well as West Midlands trains being able to prioritise for travel within the West Midlands county rather than the region as a whole. would it also not allow for more ease by having all of Worcestershire connected by a single train company rather than two differing ones?

While many of the stations may have been GWR pre-nationalisation, more recently many were LMR. There will always be divisions of responsibility and the dividing line between “looking towards Bristol” and “looking towards Birmingham” is inevitably going to run somewhere south of Worcester. Connectivity between those two “spheres” is less than ideal - paths permitting a Bristol- Birmingham stopper/ semi-fast would be a useful addition.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The North Cotswold Line Taskforce has been throwing around the idea that some GWR Cotswold Line trains will extend from Worcester to Droitwich and Kidderminster.

I'm sceptical, partly because (a) Chiltern tried Kidderminster and it didn't work, (b) it will be quicker to take a local train to Birmingham and then connect onto HS2, (c) anecdotally Worcestershire Parkway has taken much of the mid-Worcestershire to London market, and I'm not sure that direct trains from Droitwich will shift the needle much.

 

[The Planner]

As someone from Worcester, ive wondered why GWR only service/stop at a handful of stations within Worcestershire, e.g Shrub, Foregate, Malvern, Pershore etc and not the rest of Worcestershire such as Droitwich, Hartlebury, Kidderminster etc or at least service until Birmingham.

Historically these would have been GWR stations as well as West Midlands trains being able to prioritise for travel within the West Midlands county rather than the region as a whole. would it also not allow for more ease by having all of Worcestershire connected by a single train company rather than two differing ones? also could bring back direct london trains for towns like Kidderminster for example?

Just something that’s popped up in my mind recently and never knew the answer to

It makes more sense to have WMR deal with the Birmingham traffic as that is where I would expect most of the passenger flow heads to. If something goes wrong on the GWR side, you can guarantee the Worcester to Birmingham part will be the first to get curtailed.

 

[DelW]

Historically these would have been GWR stations as well as West Midlands trains being able to prioritise for travel within the West Midlands county rather than the region as a whole. would it also not allow for more ease by having all of Worcestershire connected by a single train company rather than two differing ones? also could bring back direct london trains for towns like Kidderminster for example?

Historically there was considerable geographical overlap between the (original) GWR and the Midland / LNWR / LMS. The GWR extended as far north as Chester and Birkenhead, while the LMS and its predecessors reached down to Bristol, Bath and into South Wales. Some of that was via joint lines and running powers, but the West Midlands has never been neatly divided between Western and Midlands influences.

 

[Djgr]

Simplistically because modern day TOCs are not the same as the pre-war Big Four companies. Sometimes they use variants of Big Four names to suggest heritage and quality but this is just a branding creation. More often than not they don't (e.g. c2c) or can't.

Anyway since privatisation few geographical areas have had consistently named TOCs serving them all that time, with names lost for all time (e.g. Northern Spirit, First North Western).

 

[Master29]

GWR wouldn't have the stock anyway, but I do understand the historical significance.

 

[peteb]

I'm also from Worcestershire and I too wonder why every journey to London made from north of Worcester is very firmly encouraged to go via Birmingham. By this I mean fares are cheaper, there are more trains, and even though Chiltern have ceased to run from Kidderminster it's a fairly easy interchange at Snow Hill or Moor Street.

Whilst I much prefer the Cotswold route via Evesham, connections from the north aren't great. Having two Worcester stations with trains alternately serving one or both makes connections more difficult. Then when there is a "good" connection it's too short and lack of cooperation between train companies makes it risky.

So in theory a through train from, say, Stourbridge Junction via Droitwich and Worcestershire Parkway should be a great benefit. However the reality is that there probably aren't that many through passengers for Oxford or Paddington.....yet. Were an enlightened train company to introduce a competitive fare structure which avoided the need to split ticket when using the Cotswold route, I'm sure the market could pick up. Certainly it's a pretty long drive to Oxford from Kidderminster, whether via M40 or A roads.

 

[172007]

Worcester is definitely in the West Midlands. Certainly not the county but it is in the geographic area so perfectly within the remit of WM Trains.

 

[Wolfie]

Worcester is definitely in the West Midlands. Certainly not the county but it is in the geographic area so perfectly within the remit of WM Trains.

Indeed, my home county Shropshire similarly. Shropshire also historically had GWR services but l wouldn't for one moment suggest that be re-established.

 

[Statto]

Indeed, my home county Shropshire similarly. Shropshire also historically had GWR services but l wouldn't for one moment suggest that be re-established.

GWR back in the day went as far as Birkenhead Woodside via Chester, Wrexham & Shrewsbury but was always superseded by the WCML, no chance of that route ever being re established.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

GWR back in the day went as far as Birkenhead Woodside via Chester, Wrexham & Shrewsbury but was always superseded by the WCML, no chance of that route ever being re established.

And to Warrington and on to Manchester via running powers (to Exchange/Vic).

GWR branding not matching the pre-nationalisation setup is replicated in the LNER situation, which has nothing like the old company's reach.
There's the reverse situation in the south-west where today's GWR TOC runs on old ex-LSWR routes (eg Barnstaple, Exmouth, also on the North Downs line).
Another factor in the Cotswold case is that the line was never fully modernised, so that the GW and WC main lines improved their relative journey times - HS2 will distort this further.

Today, the NR Regions (to which the TOCs are supposed to be being aligned in GBR) puts most of Worcestershire in its "North West & Central" Region rather than "Wales & Western".
The boundary on the Birmingham-Bristol line is at the River Avon Bridge near Defford, and that on the Cotswold line is east of Pershore.

And you have to go right back to 1963 when BR put the ex-GW lines in the West Midlands (north of Heyford) into the London Midland Region, and the ex-SR lines (west of Wilton) into the Western Region.
The Midland lines south of Blackwell (top of the Lickey incline) moved from the LMR to the WR in the 1950s, until the recent change which moved the "Midland" boundary south to Defford.

 

[Farigiraf]

If London services wouldn't be profitable, perhaps it would be worthy to extend the GWR Bristol-Worcester stopper to Kidderminster? (reverse at Foregate St optional) Works as a stopper for the local area and may be cheaper than XC

 

[bleeder4]

If London services wouldn't be profitable, perhaps it would be worthy to extend the GWR Bristol-Worcester stopper to Kidderminster? (reverse at Foregate St optional) Works as a stopper for the local area and may be cheaper than XC

The reverse at Foregate St wouldn't work anyway, as there is no crossover. It would have to arrive from Shrub Hill at Platform 1, go off over the viaduct and river into Henwick Loop. Then come out of the loop to join the other track and then go back across the viaduct and into platform 2 of Foregate St in order to continue to Droitwich.

 

[Siemens Staines]

In the NSE Thames & Chiltern era that preceded privatisation, there were through trains with turbos from Paddington to Birmingham New St via Worcester as shown on hondawander website

165115 Evesham 17 May 1993

 

[Bartsimho]

While not a London service I wonder if an "Oxford Loop" service might work. Although it might be too long.

Running Oxford-Cotswold Line-Kidderminster-Moor Street-Chiltern Main Line-Oxford Semi Fast

Could add good connectivity and increase frequencies across routes.

Oxford - Banbury - Leamington Spa - Warwick - Warwick Parkway - Solihull - Moor Street - Snow Hill - Jewellery Quarter - Cradley Heath - Stourbridge Junction - Kidderminster Town - Droitwich Spa - Worcester Shrub Hill - Worcestershire Parkway - Evesham - Moreton-in-Marsh - Charlbury - Oxford

 

[The Planner]

While not a London service I wonder if an "Oxford Loop" service might work. Although it might be too long.

Running Oxford-Cotswold Line-Kidderminster-Moor Street-Chiltern Main Line-Oxford Semi Fast

Could add good connectivity and increase frequencies across routes.

Oxford - Banbury - Leamington Spa - Warwick - Warwick Parkway - Solihull - Moor Street - Snow Hill - Jewellery Quarter - Cradley Heath - Stourbridge Junction - Kidderminster Town - Droitwich Spa - Worcester Shrub Hill - Worcestershire Parkway - Evesham - Moreton-in-Marsh - Charlbury - Oxford

Those sort of services are difficult to manage. What would show on the departure board at Oxford? You clearly wouldn't want anywhere south of say Kidderminster or Droitwich or someone is going to be sat on a train that takes a lot longer than another service. Same goes for Moor St, you don't want to be showing Oxford and then see you wandering off towards Stourbridge.

 

[Bartsimho]

Those sort of services are difficult to manage. What would show on the departure board at Oxford? You clearly wouldn't want anywhere south of say Kidderminster or Droitwich or someone is going to be sat on a train that takes a lot longer than another service. Same goes for Moor St, you don't want to be showing Oxford and then see you wandering off towards Stourbridge.

I guess you'd do what is done on other Loop services. There's already the Waterloo to Waterloo, the Cannon Street to Cannon Street

Include via in the information maybe. Maybe have it as officially Oxford to Snow Hill but the services transition into each other at Snow Hill and then you just need via information again (So it's Oxford to Snow Hill via Worcester Shrub Hill and Kidderminster which becomes the Snow Hill to Oxford via Warwick and Banbury, and vice-versa).

And of course there's only so much you can do because people are odd. Although that's an issue with every service in the country not just loop services.

Although I don't like that as it's not ideal to split the idea in the middle of clumped stations as it's then confusing for something like Warwick to Kidderminster or Banbury to Jewellery Quarter

 

[Sly Old Fox]

There are no extra sets available, but I’ve always quite liked the idea of extending the Paddington - Cheltenham service to at least Worcester Shrub Hill, and maybe Birmingham Snow Hill (calling Droitwich, Kidderminster and Stourbridge Jn). Though that would be maybe a step too far, I don’t know what the current situation with platforms is at Snow Hill, I know there are some out of use. Would also be horrendous to try and thread the services between all the stoppers on the Kidderminster - Birmingham corridor.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Some of the ideas in this thread used to actually operate in the 1970s. In particular circular services, 2 or 3 times a day (I think) each way, running Paddington - Oxford - Shrub Hill - New Street - Banbury - Oxford - Paddington. I think these were killed off by the introduction of HST operated services running hourly on the NE-SW corridor.

But even subsequent to this there were some workings between Paddington and Shrub Hill via Swindon to add to the mix. The network we have today does allow various options but priorities and preferences have changed over time and might very well do so again.

 

[class ep-09]

Talking about loop services - what about Bristol - Worcester - Birmingham - Bromsgrove - Bristol ?

One each hour in each direction of the loop ( clockwise and anticlockwise ).

 

[The Planner]

Talking about loop services - what about Bristol - Worcester - Birmingham - Bromsgrove - Bristol ?

One each hour in each direction of the loop ( clockwise and anticlockwise ).

What would it be for? Extra Worcester Birmingham services, Bristol Worcester? As no one is going to catch the clockwise service to Birmingham and vice versa.

 

[30907]

The reverse at Foregate St wouldn't work anyway, as there is no crossover. It would have to arrive from Shrub Hill at Platform 1, go off over the viaduct and river into Henwick Loop. Then come out of the loop to join the other track and then go back across the viaduct and into platform 2 of Foregate St in order to continue to Droitwich.

But when Worcester is eventually resignalled it might be worth considering, whether from Bristol or Oxford.

 

[6Gman]

GWR back in the day went as far as Birkenhead Woodside via Chester, Wrexham & Shrewsbury but was always superseded by the WCML, no chance of that route ever being re established.

But even then it was quicker to go to Euston from Birkenhead and Chester.

 

[class ep-09]

What would it be for? Extra Worcester Birmingham services, Bristol Worcester? As no one is going to catch the clockwise service to Birmingham and vice versa.

Currently there is 1tph Bristol - Worcester service , which could have been extended to Birmingham and then continue back to Bristol via Bromsgrove giving additional train per hour from Birmingham to Bristol . And vice versa .

No one suggest that passengers need to travel to / from Birmingham via Worcester to / from Bristol .

There has been a lot of talk about not enough trains between Birmingham and Bristol . That “loop” could be one of the options.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

But even then it was quicker to go to Euston from Birkenhead and Chester.

Was the GWR route actually a "main line" from Birkenhead to London? Or was the main trunk route London to Birmingham with the Birkenhead leg more of a regional service? Why Birkenhead anyway? It's not exactly a huge place.

 

[Bevan Price]

Was the GWR route actually a "main line" from Birkenhead to London? Or was the main trunk route London to Birmingham with the Birkenhead leg more of a regional service? Why Birkenhead anyway? It's not exactly a huge place.

It was partly "Birkenhead for Liverpool". Woodside station was adjacent to Woodside Ferry, which used to have frequent sailings to Liverpool (at least every 10 minutes).
And yes - Paddington to Chester was regarded as a main line service, not a branch from Wolverhampton / Shrewsbury. Extension to Birkenhead was partly GWR vs LNWR/LMSR competition, but remember the line served places other than London (which were not on LNWR/LMSR.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It was partly "Birkenhead for Liverpool". Woodside station was adjacent to Woodside Ferry, which used to have frequent sailings to Liverpool (at least every 10 minutes).
And yes - Paddington to Chester was regarded as a main line service, not a branch from Wolverhampton / Shrewsbury. Extension to Birkenhead was partly GWR vs LNWR/LMSR competition, but remember the line served places other than London (which were not on LNWR/LMSR.

And the Euston route was faster?

 

[The Planner]

Currently there is 1tph Bristol - Worcester service , which could have been extended to Birmingham and then continue back to Bristol via Bromsgrove giving additional train per hour from Birmingham to Bristol . And vice versa .

No one suggest that passengers need to travel to / from Birmingham via Worcester to / from Bristol .

There has been a lot of talk about not enough trains between Birmingham and Bristol . That “loop” could be one of the options.

That hasnt answered what its for. An extra Birmingham Bristol will be just that, complicating and making it unreliable by going round the houses isnt the answer.

 

[Shrewbly]

Why not run the Bristol-Worcester up to Bromsgrove; platform 1 at Bromsgrove gets very little use, and this would provide connections with the bottom end of the Cross-City.

OK, as it stands I realise that you probably can't get back to the Stoke Works branch from platform 1, that the Stoke Works branch is single track, and that the service would then bypass Foregate Street. (But I've just double-checked, and this is in speculative discussion!)

And what's it for? For my benefit! Or at least it would have been during the many years I commuted to Ashchurch and Gloucester from Bromsgrove and never once was able to make that journey by train due to the terrible connections. (There were however a surprising number of commuters in the opposite direction until Cross-Country stopped their peak calls at Bromsgrove).