Why doesn’t more freight run at night?

[dangie]

Just an observation on Real Time Trains re: Rugeley Trent Valley.
As HS2 is often touted as helping to get more freight onto the West Coast Main Line, if a problem with the WCML is over capacity then why doesn’t more freight run at night? A quick look on Real Time Trains shows only a handful of freight passed through between midnight & 6.00am. There’s no passenger traffic between those hours to be held up.

 

[DarloRich]

Just an observation on Real Time Trains re: Rugeley Trent Valley.
As HS2 is often touted as helping to get more freight onto the West Coast Main Line, if a problem with the WCML is over capacity then why doesn’t more freight run at night? A quick look on Real Time Trains shows only a handful of freight passed through between midnight & 6.00am. There’s no passenger traffic between those hours to be held up.

i think there were engineering works on the southern end of the WCML. Bletchley usually sees loads of overnight freight. Taking 5th October at Bletchley as an example at random there were 23/23 freight trains between midnight at 0600 ish plus 5 or so more that didn't run.

 

[66701GBRF]

Just an observation on Real Time Trains re: Rugeley Trent Valley.
As HS2 is often touted as helping to get more freight onto the West Coast Main Line, if a problem with the WCML is over capacity then why doesn’t more freight run at night? A quick look on Real Time Trains shows only a handful of freight passed through between midnight & 6.00am. There’s no passenger traffic between those hours to be held up.

There are lots of freight that runs at night. It is also the case that night freight will run during daylight hours at some point on their return journey.

 

[Spartacus]

Just an observation on Real Time Trains re: Rugeley Trent Valley.
As HS2 is often touted as helping to get more freight onto the West Coast Main Line, if a problem with the WCML is over capacity then why doesn’t more freight run at night? A quick look on Real Time Trains shows only a handful of freight passed through between midnight & 6.00am. There’s no passenger traffic between those hours to be held up.

One of the basis things is when are the facilities you're serving open? If you try and dictate to rail freight users when exactly YOU want THEIR yards open you're likely to soon find you don't have their business at all. You might be able to send it towards there during the night, but it's probably going to need to come out again during the say. Sit it around for hours and hours waiting and you're again likely to lose the business.

When you're busy there's also the need to run at night simply because you can't do anything else, a busy terminal simply don't have the time to do everything at night even if they wanted to.

 

[LAX54]

Just an observation on Real Time Trains re: Rugeley Trent Valley.
As HS2 is often touted as helping to get more freight onto the West Coast Main Line, if a problem with the WCML is over capacity then why doesn’t more freight run at night? A quick look on Real Time Trains shows only a handful of freight passed through between midnight & 6.00am. There’s no passenger traffic between those hours to be held up.

Wait around Ipswich Yard / Derby Road / Trimley overnight, you will see it is very busy on nights !
Traffic may leave ( & arrive) Felixstowe / Tilbury in the early hours, but by the time they get Northwards its well into the day.

 

[deltic]

Just an observation on Real Time Trains re: Rugeley Trent Valley.
As HS2 is often touted as helping to get more freight onto the West Coast Main Line, if a problem with the WCML is over capacity then why doesn’t more freight run at night? A quick look on Real Time Trains shows only a handful of freight passed through between midnight & 6.00am. There’s no passenger traffic between those hours to be held up.

What day were you looking at - there are 26 booked between 00.00 and 06.00 tomorrow plus lots of Q paths but virtually none today presumably because of engineering works

 

[Merle Haggard]

Freight terminals may well have planning constraints preventing night working. Was often a problem with stone terminals (unloading mainly, but sometimes loading) when there was the big expansion in 'Earths & Stones' train load working in the early 1970s.
This was because of both the noise of operation and of lorries doing the distribution obviously using the local roads at night.
If there were constraints at both ends of the transit it did rather limit the schedule 'window'.

 

[dangie]

What day were you looking at - there are 26 booked between 00.00 and 06.00 tomorrow plus lots of Q paths but virtually none today presumably because of engineering works

It was today I was looking at. Didn’t know here were engineering works.

Another question. To relieve over capacity, why not more passenger trains at night? I’m sure many would travel at night if there were tempting off-peak long distance fares available. Much of the rail network seems to be dormant between midnight & 6.00am.

 

[DarloRich]

Much of the rail network seems to be dormant between midnight & 6.00am.

Much of the rail network is repaired between midnight and 0600

 

[SynthD]

I’m sure many would travel at night if there were tempting off-peak long distance fares available.

It wouldn’t make money.

 

[66701GBRF]

It was today I was looking at. Didn’t know here were engineering works.

Another question. To relieve over capacity, why not more passenger trains at night? I’m sure many would travel at night if there were tempting off-peak long distance fares available. Much of the rail network seems to be dormant between midnight & 6.00am.

Where are you fitting in engineering/maintenance work and the more night freight you want to run?

 

[dk1]

The GEML & Felixstowe branch are awash with freight at night.

 

[skyhigh]

Another question. To relieve over capacity, why not more passenger trains at night? I’m sure many would travel at night if there were tempting off-peak long distance fares available.

Really? Enough to cover the operating cost? I doubt it to be honest.

Much of the rail network seems to be dormant between midnight & 6.00am.

Which makes room for all the possessions for inspection and maintenance. If the network is fully open 24hrs, when does the work get done?

 

[Oxfordblues]

I know from my time at Railfreight Distribution that some terminals liked to reserve daytime working for road haulage and deal with rail traffic at night, resulting in daytime rail movements. After all most lorry drivers prefer to work during the day, but rail wagons never complain!

 

[Boodiggy]

Just an observation on Real Time Trains re: Rugeley Trent Valley.
As HS2 is often touted as helping to get more freight onto the West Coast Main Line, if a problem with the WCML is over capacity then why doesn’t more freight run at night? A quick look on Real Time Trains shows only a handful of freight passed through between midnight & 6.00am. There’s no passenger traffic between those hours to be held up.

Depends on the possessions for works. The WTT will factor in where possessions are planned and have diversions in place, usually via the West Mids when the Trent is blocked. It is common for all of it to be blocked or have bi-di running overnight.

 

[deltic]

Where are you fitting in engineering/maintenance work and the more night freight you want to run?

British Rail used to run plenty of trains overnight, parcels. mails, newspapers, sleepers and freight - not every line is required to be maintained 7 days a week for 6 hours.

There is probably enough demand for a seating only overnight service from London to Scotland via Birmingham - problem is that route knowledge has been lost for when diversions are needed for engineering works.

 

[Boodiggy]

Each line is part of a possession cycle so that when it is blocked there are other routes open. If operators want to bid to run later services on the available routes they can. Plenty of trains run overnight now especially freight, test trains and postals.

 

[Malaxa]

You'd hardly put your spotting book down all night at Hackney Wick, especially if there's also a possession on the Goblin Line.

 

[Magdalia]

British Rail used to run plenty of trains overnight, parcels. mails, newspapers, sleepers and freight - not every line is required to be maintained 7 days a week for 6 hours.

There is probably enough demand for a seating only overnight service from London to Scotland via Birmingham - problem is that route knowledge has been lost for when diversions are needed for engineering works.

But in those days very little traffic ran on Sundays, until after 1600. A lot of engineering work that used to be done on Sunday mornings is now done on weekday nights.

In the latter days of my commuting there was a 6 week cycle of early weeknight closures to give engineers the line access that they could no longer get on Sundays. Four of the six were Ally Pally-Langley via Welwyn, Ally Pally-Langley via Hertford, Hitchin-Cambridge and Cambridge-Kings Lynn. I can't remember the other two.

Over longer distances, faster daytime journeys, earlier morning trains and later evening trains all reduced the demand for overnight travel. On the ECML the HSTs delivered that. It was only after HSTs came in that there were morning Inter City arrivals at Kings Cross before 0900 and evening Inter City departures after 1900.

 

[Class 170101]

British Rail used to run plenty of trains overnight, parcels. mails, newspapers, sleepers and freight - not every line is required to be maintained 7 days a week for 6 hours.

There is probably enough demand for a seating only overnight service from London to Scotland via Birmingham - problem is that route knowledge has been lost for when diversions are needed for engineering works.

Health and Safety has also changed a lot of the rules around open and closed lines and Adjacent Line Open to traffic working. The ways of working in the 1970s and 1980s when the newspaper trains ran would no longer be acceptable now.

 

[Jamesrob637]

When I stayed at the Sidings Hotel in 2000, there was a heck of a lot of freight at night. That might have decreased somewhat now most of the coal plants up that way are closed., however there could be more container traffic than ever before.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is probably enough demand for a seating only overnight service from London to Scotland via Birmingham - problem is that route knowledge has been lost for when diversions are needed for engineering works.

That traffic, and that to Ireland, goes via BA/easyJet/Ryanair these days, at fare levels rail cannot compete with.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There is probably enough demand for a seating only overnight service from London to Scotland via Birmingham - problem is that route knowledge has been lost for when diversions are needed for engineering works.

There are already two overnight trains from London to Scotland. The seats are rarely full. Unless there's a massive number of overnight Birmingham to Scotland passengers there aren't enough people to make it pay.
The cheap overnight coaches from London to Scotland stopped due to lack of customers.

 

[LRV3004]

Depends on the possessions for works. The WTT will factor in where possessions are planned and have diversions in place, usually via the West Mids when the Trent is blocked. It is common for all of it to be blocked or have bi-di running overnight.

Can definitely verify that! Two of my recent night shifts have seen me divert via the West Midlands due to engineering works on the Trent Valley, and other night shifts have seen me running via the Trent Valley, but bi-directional!

 

[387131]

Lots of the Mendip Stone trains run from Whatley and Merehead Quary's to London along the GWML overnight. Most of this stock runs back empty during the daytime on the westbound.
There are still flows in the daytime, however a significant portion of the loaded trains runs during the night.