Why doesn't the e320 Eurostar run at 200mph?

[hexagon789]

They will do eventually. Whether they will reach 320kmph on said small section though, is another matter.

I don't see why they wouldn't reach 320, they are capable of that speed and TGVs regularly obtain 320 on that section in service even though it was originally upgraded to 320 purely for testing purposes.

 

[Starmill]

It would be more than just "theoretically", they will have to run at 320 because that’s the speed the TGVs do on this line (and the other lines cleared for 320).

Indeed. I wasn't suggesting they might use the route without the capability to run at that speed. But there are lots of regularly suggested routes for Eurostar to run on, all of which unfortunately remain theoretical.

 

[TRAX]

Indeed. I wasn't suggesting they might use the route without the capability to run at that speed. But there are lots of regularly suggested routes for Eurostar to run on, all of which unfortunately remain theoretical.

One could dream about a Eurostar service to Spain....

 

[Starmill]

They will do eventually. Whether they will reach 320kmph on said small section though, is another matter.

Have any e320 sets ever worked in passenger service there? It sounds like they as yet have not? If so we would be rather banking on the return of the route in 2022 or later.

 

[guilbert]

I'm curious to know what would be involved in upgrading the LGV Nord and HS1 from 300 -> 320 km/h. Presumably the actual track is (mostly) suitable anyway? And presumably the TVM signalling can still be used with suitable gaps between trains..?

 

[hexagon789]

I'm curious to know what would be involved in upgrading the LGV Nord and HS1 from 300 -> 320 km/h. Presumably the actual track is (mostly) suitable anyway? And presumably the TVM signalling can still be used with suitable gaps between trains..?

TVM430, as the name suggests, is suitable for up to 430km/h. It's only the original type that restricted trains speed in the case of certain of the original Sud-Est which remained restricted to 270km/h instead of 300.

 

[Starmill]

Presumably it wouldn't actually take a great deal of work to increase the maximum permissible speed on LGV Nord, but there would unavoidably be increased noise and maintenance expenses. Would it really be worth it? Eurostar's track access fees would presumably increase to cover part of this - the last thing in the world they will want.

Between Calais and Lille, the route is not perhaps the most heavily trafficked LGV in France either.

 

[cle]

Would any of the other services (from Lille and Brussels to Southern France and beyond) via CDG be able to use it, based on the stock they have currently? Plus Thalys and Hautes TGVs. The savings are 1-3 mins, but if that is happening on 100s of services a day, it becomes interesting.

 

[Ianno87]

Would any of the other services (from Lille and Brussels to Southern France and beyond) via CDG be able to use it, based on the stock they have currently? Plus Thalys and Hautes TGVs. The savings are 1-3 mins, but if that is happening on 100s of services a day, it becomes interesting.

Aside from Class 373s, looks like all the other stock regularly using LGV Nord at least has capability for 320km/h operation:

TGV Réseau
TGV Duplex
Thalys PBK/PBKA sets

As so much of the LGV Nord timetable is built around the Eurostar standard paths (xx13/43 off Gare du Nord, flighted in front of the xx16/46 Lille TGVs), there's not much that can be done whilst Class 373s are still in regular use.

 

[TRAX]

TVM430, as the name suggests, is suitable for up to 430km/h. It's only the original type that restricted trains speed in the case of certain of the original Sud-Est which remained restricted to 270km/h instead of 300.

Not at all. TVM430 is capable, and was developed, of/for speeds up to 320 km/h.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Have any e320 sets ever worked in passenger service there? It sounds like they as yet have not? If so we would be rather banking on the return of the route in 2022 or later.

I don't know to be honest. Think one went down once on a test run pre-COVID.

 

[duesselmartin]

Germany decided to go for lower speeds on both maintance and energy consumption grounds. Berlin to Munich is therefore for 250kph.

 

[Peter Kelford]

There is a fact a small section of LGV Meditiranée that is 320kph that Marseille services can theoretically use.

The LGV Sud Europe Atlantique line has a max permissible speed of 320 km/h for a good portion of its distance between Tours and Bordeaux. As unlikely as it looks now, if Eurostar were ever to serve Bordeaux it would be theoretically possible for their train sets to exploit their top speed. LGV Est and a small section elsewhere also have the higher maximum permissible speed than the older high speed lines.

But probably won't. There is limited interoperability with the TGV-derivative dominated French HSR market.

TVM430, as the name suggests, is suitable for up to 430km/h. It's only the original type that restricted trains speed in the case of certain of the original Sud-Est which remained restricted to 270km/h instead of 300.

I'm curious to know what would be involved in upgrading the LGV Nord and HS1 from 300 -> 320 km/h. Presumably the actual track is (mostly) suitable anyway? And presumably the TVM signalling can still be used with suitable gaps between trains..?

Not at all. TVM430 is capable, and was developed, of/for speeds up to 320 km/h.

Well...

TVM430 is suitable for speeds of up to about 400km/h, but since a 10% speed cushion is required, about 350 - 360 km/h. However, both the new lines (BPL to Rennes and SEA to Bordeaux) have been built with ETCS 2 on top of TVM.

 

[Starmill]

Germany decided to go for lower speeds on both maintance and energy consumption grounds. Berlin to Munich is therefore for 250kph.

The French also seem to have taken the view that 320 km/h is the summit of productivity in terms of journey time and operational cost. They could have continued to develop even faster maximum speeds and cut journey times further, but judged the marginal costs of energy and maintenance not to be worthwhile above this point. It's a fascinating comparison of approaches, the German one more focused on capacity and connectivity (and price) and the French one more focused on journey times. Of course, there are sone German routes suitable for 300 km/h.

 

[hexagon789]

Not at all. TVM430 is capable, and was developed, of/for speeds up to 320 km/h.

My understanding was that it was theoretically capable of supporting up to 430km/h, just as the original TVM300 was capable of supporting up to 300km/h.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The French also seem to have taken the view that 320 km/h is the summit of productivity in terms of journey time and operational cost. They could have continued to develop even faster maximum speeds and cut journey times further, but judged the marginal costs of energy and maintenance not to be worthwhile above this point. It's a fascinating comparison of approaches, the German one more focused on capacity and connectivity (and price) and the French one more focused on journey times. Of course, there are sone German routes suitable for 300 km/h.

Have you seen how fast the new ICE accelerates? It'll reach 250 way quicker than the old version reaches 280!

 

[hexagon789]

Have you seen how fast the new ICE accelerates? It'll reach 250 way quicker than the old version reaches 280!

The spec suggests 0.53m/s/s (no speed range quoted)

The spec for an ICE1 says those take 380 seconds to 250km/h (no figure for 280km/h).

Doesn't really help with a comparison sadly.

 

[TRAX]

My understanding was that it was theoretically capable of supporting up to 430km/h, just as the original TVM300 was capable of supporting up to 300km/h.

It’s theoretically capable of 400, not 430. And it can’t go to 400 without modification, just as TVM300 required modification to go from 270 to 300.

 

[hexagon789]

It’s theoretically capable of 400, not 430. And it can’t go to 400 without modification, just as TVM300 required modification to go from 270 to 300.

Fair enough, it's just every source I've seen says up to 430km/h and I don't mean Wikipedia or anything like that.

 

[TRAX]

Fair enough, it's just every source I've seen says up to 430km/h and I don't mean Wikipedia or anything like that.

You would need to change the bitrate of the message transmission in order to enable the message to be read over 400. Not impossible.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think anyone in Europe is seriously proposing to operate commercially at more than 320 km/h though are they? So while the discussion regarding 400 km/h and above is interesting, I'm not sure it fits that well here.

 

[TRAX]

I don't think anyone in Europe is seriously proposing to operate commercially at more than 320 km/h though are they? So while the discussion regarding 400 km/h and above is interesting, I'm not sure it fits that well here.

The worldwide consensus seems to revolve around 360 km/h in the near future. Any faster is not really viable.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think anyone in Europe is seriously proposing to operate commercially at more than 320 km/h though are they? So while the discussion regarding 400 km/h and above is interesting, I'm not sure it fits that well here.

HS2 is proposed as 360 km/h.

 

[Austriantrain]

The worldwide consensus seems to revolve around 360 km/h in the near future. Any faster is not really viable.

The Italians had plans for 360, but as far as I know these are stalled. Spain originally aimed for 350 but has in fact remained at 300.

I think the consensus in continental Europe is more around 320 than 360. At some point, capacity gets reduced as well, since there will be connecting lines joining and leaving at lower speeds, or „new stations“, and a higher speed differential limits capacity.

However, I think the whole world is curious whether UK HS2 plans for 18 trains/hour at 360 kph will work out.

 

[Starmill]

HS2 is proposed as 360 km/h.

It looks like we were both wrong. The Full Business Case says that HS2 trains will "routinely" operate at 330 km/h, with 360 as a theoretical infrastructure maximum.

 

[hexagon789]

You would need to change the bitrate of the message transmission in order to enable the message to be read over 400. Not impossible.

Presumably said sources all assume "430" indicates the maximum speed the system can handle.

It looks like we were both wrong. The Full Business Case says that HS2 trains will "routinely" operate at 330 km/h, with 360 as a theoretical infrastructure maximum.

Which is a downgrade I believe from the previous design 400/service 360.

Spain originally aimed for 350 but has in fact remained at 300.

I believe Madrid-Barcelona is 310km/h

 

[Ianno87]

It looks like we were both wrong. The Full Business Case says that HS2 trains will "routinely" operate at 330 km/h, with 360 as a theoretical infrastructure maximum.

Line Speed 360, timetable (thus basis of journey times for business case) planned at 330.

 

[hexagon789]

Line Speed 360, timetable (thus basis of journey times for business case) planned at 330.

Which compares quite reasonably with the 285 for 300km/h lines mentioned above

 

[ABB125]

Line Speed 360, timetable (thus basis of journey times for business case) planned at 330.

I thought line speed was (up to) 400km/h, with the first lot of trains being limited to 360km/h max speed, and planned at 330km/h?

 

[hexagon789]

I thought line speed was (up to) 400km/h, with the first lot of trains being limited to 360km/h max speed, and planned at 330km/h?

I believe a number of months ago it was officially stated speed was being downgraded to 360 max regardless - i.e. no plans to built it to allow 400 in the future