Why don’t heritage railways make an effort to “sell” diesel traction?

[amahy]

It is generally agreed that the general public prefer a steam train ride over heritage diesel at heritage railways. But why don’t heritage railways at least make an effort to try and sell diesel?

Heritage railways are often very negative about when diesel replaces steam. Recently, I saw a post from the Vale of Rheidol railway that they are using diesel this week due to the dry weather, and that they were apologising for the lack of steam traction. It is very rare that the VoR use diesel traction on public passenger services, so surely this should be celebrated as a rare opportunity?

In my opinion, part of the problem is that heritage railways make no effort to inform the public about their more unusual diesels. Both the Severn Valley Railway and East Lancashire Railway are culprits for this, among others. At no point have I ever seen them make a big deal to the public about their diesel hydraulic traction, which are much rarer than steam locomotives, especially BR standard steam locomotives, which are endlessly promoted by heritage railways, despite them being much more common than hydraulics.

Another similar case are the class 15 and class 28 restoration projects at ELR. When at the railway, or browsing ELR’s main website, I challenge anyone to find any mention of these two sole surviving locomotives. I can almost guarantee that you won’t find a trace of them! This is very poor, especially for the class 28, which is the only Co-Bo left in the UK, and one of few in the world. Especially seen as the Bury Standard 4 group has no end of publicity promoting their restoration project(s), which are preserving relatively common locos in comparison to the 15 and 28, with leaflets for donations on the trains, and a massive sign on a shed at Bury Bolton Street. In addition, the 15 and 28 projects are progressing at a much slower pace to other, less significant steam restoration projects.

I’m not saying that heritage railways need to make a complete switch over to diesel, as I believe preservation of both traction types is important. I just think it’s a shame that they make no effort whatsoever to sell diesel traction to the masses. It would not cost them at all financially, even if it had little effect in changing the attitude of the general public. The only potential change I could see would be rising passenger numbers when steam isn’t operating, and future proofing for steam bans, which currently have a negative impact on revenue at heritage railways. There’s no harm in trying!

 

[birchesgreen]

At the weekend I did quite a few posters around the Surrey and Hampshire area at stations advertising the Watercress Line diesel gala so there is some effort made sometimes...

 

[duffield]

I have noticed more heritage lines advertising their DMU services as "scenic", which they mostly are; from what I see I more members of the general public seem to be appreciating them, particularly if they can get a seat in the front section.

Loco hauled diesel traction is generally always going to be a harder sell for the general public versus steam. Things like the visible motions and footplates of steam locos are bound to be more attractive to most non-enthusiasts.

 

[DelW]

The first five pages of this forum has threads about diesel gales at:

• Severn Valley
• Mid Hants (Watercress Line)
• Gloucester and Warwickshire
• Swanage
• Chinnor and Princes Risborough
• West Somerset

as well as various threads about other diesel loco and DMU events.

So diesels aren't being ignored, but I suspect that these galas appeal more to enthusiasts, who will know of or research such events. The general public or family market seem mostly to prefer steam, and they're the target of the more widespread advertising.

 

[The exile]

Maybe a change of emphasis to the “general ambience” - after all the thing you experience most is the carriage you’re sitting in. Kids’ I-spy type activity sheets which also explain now-mysterious features of a standard Mark 1 . Of course, Rev Awdry (et al) and their attitude to disiesels (sic) doesn’t help. Still need a steamer around though….

 

[amahy]

The general public or family market seem mostly to prefer steam, and they're the target of the more widespread advertising.

This is my point. The general public seem to prefer steam, because steam is what’s advertised to them. The only advertising for diesel is for gala events aimed at enthusiasts, or very limited advertising for scenic DMU rides.

I doubt many families have ever experienced travelling behind a heritage diesel at full thrash, because it is never advertised to them. Who knows if families will enjoy it if they’ve never tried it?

 

[Gwr12345]

The Ffestiniog had to revert to diesel due to fire risk, and seemed quite keen to use it as marketing, an impromptu 'diesel fest.' Largely as a method to attract those who wanted some diesel haulage, not normally on offer. Even though its now dragged on a wee bit...

 

[Trainlog]

As a primarily Steam enthusiast, I have said this in other threads.

When I have seen steam locos at heritage railways or about on the mainline, it's fair to say they have a presence.

Stationary: Steam locos have plenty going on when stationary, whether it be Westinghouse pumps ticking over, the firebox glow, the hisses of valves, etc. Then there is the opportunity to look at the loco up close (obviously responsibly) with the connecting rods on full display, When they depart its a show in its own right with whistle shows, the chuff of the loco, and unintentionally maybe some wheelslip.

At speed: Steam locos at speed are interesting for me in a different way as you get to hear it working hard over a gradient, depending on how enthusiastic the crew are, maybe a small whistle show past the location you are spotting in.

Diesels for me aren't anywhere as close interesting stationary. Some heratidge diesels wont sound any different if I was at a bus station or at London Marylebone. Design wise, diesels are alright though can feel a bit monotonous, with some exceptions. Only place diesel wins is in its thrash, albiet I typically have to see it at some speed for that and with certain types, mind you freight hauling does sound rather good with diesel.

Even with the thrash element in mind, heratidge railways can try and sell diesel all they want, but with these points in mind, along with how the national rail network still has plenty of diesel traction around, its easy to see why for the public to feel almost ripped off or underwhelmed by diesels as opposed to steam traction.

 

[xotGD]

In addition to the diesel gala, the KWVR promotes "Diesel and Ale Days". Appealing to both the cranks and the boozers. There's steam hauling the other set, so for those not wanting the diesel, the option is there. Something for everyone.

 

[D1537]

The NYMR is selling its June diesel weekend quite heavily on its social media at the moment (though I suppose one could argue that it currently can't plug any steam-hauled services anyway...)

 

[Dr Hoo]

This is my point. The general public seem to prefer steam, because steam is what’s advertised to them. The only advertising for diesel is for gala events aimed at enthusiasts, or very limited advertising for scenic DMU rides.

I doubt many families have ever experienced travelling behind a heritage diesel at full thrash, because it is never advertised to them. Who knows if families will enjoy it if they’ve never tried it?

How many heritage railways can provide a ‘full thrash’ with usually short and light trains at low speeds?

I’m not intending this to cover shunters on shortish lines like Wallingford.

 

[driverd]

This is my point. The general public seem to prefer steam, because steam is what’s advertised to them. The only advertising for diesel is for gala events aimed at enthusiasts, or very limited advertising for scenic DMU rides.

I doubt many families have ever experienced travelling behind a heritage diesel at full thrash, because it is never advertised to them. Who knows if families will enjoy it if they’ve never tried it?

I think you're looking at this far too much from an enthusiast stand point.

Most general public don't care what's hauling their train. From personal experience, if I try and upsell the merit of a particular diesel train to freinds/family, I typically get a response that embodies the notion of "how endearing that he's going off on one of his little enthusiastic explainations", followed by a "that's lovely but no thanks".

In the same sense, no one outside enthusiast circles really cares what Steam locomotive is hauling a train - be it the only one of its type in the world or a black 5. Basically, Steam trains conjure up images of beloved films like Harry Potter and the railway children, they have a certain charm and presence that no diesel can match. Its far more about the overall magic and cultural significance of the steam locomotive than the actual locomotive being used.

 

[amahy]

How many heritage railways can provide a ‘full thrash’ with usually short and light trains at low speeds?

I’m not intending this to cover shunters on shortish lines like Wallingford.

Many more than advertise it currently! SVR, ELR, KWVR, NYMR to name a few. Outside of galas and special events, of course.

 

[merry]

Let's face it, for most people the smell of a steam engine in the station is way more pleasant than a diesel. Unless you're a a petrol-head (diesel-head?), of course.
And at rest, a well managed steam loco is much more peaceful than a diesel, which goes a long way towards "platform appeal". Out on the line, it's a different story, but most people experience the traction far less at that point.

 

[Deepgreen]

In my experience, quite a lot of reference is made by preserved railways to diesel galas, etc., but, for the general public (rather than enthusiasts), steam is much more of a draw.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Interesting comment from the OP but there are several factors to consider, first of which is the volunteers at the preserved railways. A number of these people (but obviously not all) tend to volunteer for the heritageness of what they do. It might be polishing all the brass and glass, or sweeping the platforms at a lovely old station. It might be tending to the gardens and borders. or even painting lovely heritage structures. Some folk enjoy shovelling coal into fireboxes and tenders, and even dressing up in old gear. Others love turning up at a workshop, doing a lot of metal bashing, drinking tea and having a good old whinge about anything that pops up.

I am quite sure there are a younger element who likes more modern traction - probably goes without saying in terms of the number of "saved" class 142s and 143s dotting around preserved railways. The problem though is, it might take some convincing of the average visitor to a heritage railway that they try to get all enthused about riding on a 1980s vintage diesel train in a 2000s plastic interior whe nthey really were hoping for a dusty old Mk1 coach with compartments and loads of varnished wood.

 

[Trainlog]

I’m not intending this to cover shunters on shortish lines like Wallingford.

Whilst there is a reference to Wallingford.

Ideally this should go in their thread for their rail 200 event, but is a highlight event consisting of a class 121 worth rushing to? Sure it would be more expensive but hiring in a classic GWR steam loco might have done more to drum up interest. Imagine if the highlight was 1450 or a 57xx visiting the line.

I appreciate its much more cost-efficient, but I cant imagine a wider pool of enthusiasts would be interested. That's not to say that Diesel might not have further appeal; I could imagine this event being more hyped for a Diesel if it were a GWR 'Flying Banana' railcar turning up.

 

[Ashley Hill]

the average visitor to a heritage railway that they try to get all enthused about riding on a 1980s vintage diesel train in a 2000s plastic interior whe nthey really were hoping for a dusty old Mk1 coach with compartments and loads of

I’ve always wondered how the public would react to a preserved railway having a station resembling one from the 70/80s. Black/white name signs, electric lamp posts and if no buildings on the platform a simple shelter. BR blue liveries abound. A possibly opening for a modern style photo charter market too.

 

[billio]

I have noticed more heritage lines advertising their DMU services as "scenic", which they mostly are; from what I see I more members of the general public seem to be appreciating them, particularly if they can get a seat in the front section.

Loco hauled diesel traction is generally always going to be a harder sell for the general public versus steam. Things like the visible motions and footplates of steam locos are bound to be more attractive to most non-enthusiasts.

Personally I prefer open carriages providing a good view of the countryside or particular parts of the heritage railway; stations, sidings, engine sheds, lineside features etc.. Whether the train is hauled by a steam engine or a diesel doesn't matter. A DMU is usually ideal for this purpose.
However, it is great to see engines in steam and moving about at a station or steam hauled trains running through the landscape. In either case diesels are less interesting.
On the other hand, heritage lines need bums on seats to keep the whole things going.

 

[Richard Scott]

Some of it is how you sell it 'on the day'. The initial issue is sometimes booking office staff apologising for a diesel loco, which is a poor start.
Diesel crews allowing people to look on the footplate, discuss the engine that the loco has interests a lot of people. If you say it's a 228 litre 12 cylinder with 2500hp people can relate to that as they compare to their car.
A lot of the time it's engaging in a positive way with the public.
Railways can help themselves by selling the 'Heritage' experience. Noticed many heritage events on the Continent being very popular without a single steam loco in sight as they are marketed properly.

 

[Sun Chariot]

It is generally agreed that the general public prefer a steam train ride over heritage diesel at heritage railways. But why don’t heritage railways at least make an effort to try and sell diesel?

Aside from DMU services, offering a clear view to the saloon passengers, of all the scenery around them, I rather suspect that diesels are more  niche on the whole.
Those most attracted to diesel galas - if posts on this forum's threads are anything to go by - want to experience particular diesel classes and, in cases, specific actual locos.

Speaking as a parent, a steam locomotive offers the sensory feast:
- the smell of coals,
- the sight, sound and heat emanating from the cab as the firebox is stoked,
- hisses and clanks almost visceral as a steam loco moves,
- the visual interest of moving parts,
- the rhythmic soporific sound of exhaust beats,
- the sight of smoke trails and cinders on the clothes.
Oh and it sounds like the Hogwarts Express. Ergo: enthralled child. Happy parents.

A diesel locomotive is, generally, a more technically complex beast; and I wager will require a skillet (and consume a cost) that exceeds that of a smaller steam locomotive; so "normal running days" will tend to locos which generate most interest and revenue, for the least operating cost.

 

[Trainlog]

Diesel crews allowing people to look on the footplate, discuss the engine that the loco has interests a lot of people.

Diesels are terrible locos to plate at Heritage Railways just because of how loud they are when stationary. I usually like to plate steam locomotives, but have given up on diesels for this reason. last one I tried was a Class 31 and was too loud to talk to the driver on, Heritage Railways would be better off opening the cabs on these locos static with the engine off to look around.

Steam on the other hand is much better to plate. Sure some locos are more awkward than others, but you are able to have a conversation onboard the loco and the controls look more unique and interesting - plus there is the glow from the firebox door, which is interesting to see.

 

[Richard Scott]

Diesels are terrible locos to plate at Heritage Railways just because of how loud they are when stationary. I usually like to plate steam locomotives, but have given up on diesels for this reason. last one I tried was a Class 31 and was too loud to talk to the driver on, Heritage Railways would be better off opening the cabs on these locos static with the engine off to look around.

Steam on the other hand is much better to plate. Sure some locos are more awkward than others, but you are able to have a conversation onboard the loco and the controls look more unique and interesting - plus there is the glow from the firebox door, which is interesting to see.

They aren't that loud in the cab unless engine room door open. 37s under load number 2 end are noisy as are 20s at any time!

 

[amahy]

Some of it is how you sell it 'on the day'. The initial issue is sometimes booking office staff apologising for a diesel loco, which is a poor start.
Diesel crews allowing people to look on the footplate, discuss the engine that the loco has interests a lot of people. If you say it's a 228 litre 12 cylinder with 2500hp people can relate to that as they compare to their car.
A lot of the time it's engaging in a positive way with the public.
Railways can help themselves by selling the 'Heritage' experience. Noticed many heritage events on the Continent being very popular without a single steam loco in sight as they are marketed properly.

This is precisely why I made this thread.

I'm not saying that there's too much steam or diesel at heritage railways, the actual balance of stock is very good generally in my opinion. There just seems to be way too much negativity surrounding the use of diesel on ordinary operating days at heritage railways, most of which comes from the railway itself, which there is no rational explanation for, seen as they should be encouraging more customers, independent of the traction type. Especially with the warming climate, there are likely to be more steam bans in the future, so heritage railways may need to rely more heavily on diesel when these are in place.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

For most of the public, "heritage railway" = "steam railway". It's an experience: the sight, the smell, the sound.

A diesel railway is - for most people- "the railway". If i want to see a diesel cloud I can go down the local platform and witness it every 20 minutes.

If it's hauling carriages - well I want that steam noise and smell. If it's a DMU then it's probably something I could have boarded on the national rail platform 10 years ago. A pacer isn't a heritage train, it's a reminder of 5 years ago. A diesel locomotive is boring because it is just a noisy box. A steam locomotive breathes and steams and has - for want of a better term - a personality. There is a reason the Rev Auden chose them.

Much as enthusiasts might want to disagree, a diesel box is a basically just a normal train journey to most people. You aren't going to show the kids how it works, there's no smell or vision of it working. It's just loud and smelly - the same as the proper railway. And a DMU is even more boring - that's just the 08:10 service to wherever.


If I rocked up at a heritage railway with children and rather than a steam loco I got a pacer I would be absolutely raging.
That's not a heritage experience, that's just a boring reminder of how **** the railways were on my commute.

But I'm sure that folk in the 60s and 70s were saying this about steam....

 

[Starmill]

The East Lancashire Railway and a handful of others did historically promote their diesel days / weekends.

 

[amahy]

For most of the public, "heritage railway" = "steam railway". It's an experience: the sight, the smell, the sound.

A diesel railway is - for most people- "the railway". If i want to see a diesel cloud I can go down the local platform and witness it every 20 minutes.

If it's hauling carriages - well I want that steam noise and smell. If it's a DMU then it's probably something I could have boarded on the national rail platform 10 years ago. A pacer isn't a heritage train, it's a reminder of 5 years ago. A diesel locomotive is boring because it is just a noisy box. A steam locomotive breathes and steams and has - for want of a better term - a personality. There is a reason the Rev Auden chose them.

Much as enthusiasts might want to disagree, a diesel box is a basically just a normal train journey to most people. You aren't going to show the kids how it works, there's no smell or vision of it working. It's just loud and smelly - the same as the proper railway. And a DMU is even more boring - that's just the 08:10 service to wherever.


If I rocked up at a heritage railway with children and rather than a steam loco I got a pacer I would be absolutely raging.
That's not a heritage experience, that's just a boring reminder of how **** the railways were on my commute.

But I'm sure that folk in the 60s and 70s were saying this about steam....

Are you saying that the train that saved Britain's railways was "just a noisy box"? Many are much more historically significant than you are implying.

In regards to your comments about DMUs, other than pacers, most were withdrawn from the national network at least 30-40 years ago. These offer the unique experience of having a panoramic, drivers eye view out the front and back windows of the line ahead.

And in regards to your comments about diesel hauled services, there are very few regular loco hauled services remaining on the national network. I would argue that going on a heritage diesel hauled service is more similar to a steam hauled service than a regular diesel service on the mainline - the actual passenger accomadation is identical between a diesel and steam hauled service!

Have you ever actually ridden behind a a heritage diesel hauled service, and heard the sound and smell they make? Nothing like whats on the mainline!!!

 

[43055]

Some of it is how you sell it 'on the day'. The initial issue is sometimes booking office staff apologising for a diesel loco, which is a poor start.
Diesel crews allowing people to look on the footplate, discuss the engine that the loco has interests a lot of people. If you say it's a 228 litre 12 cylinder with 2500hp people can relate to that as they compare to their car.
A lot of the time it's engaging in a positive way with the public.
Railways can help themselves by selling the 'Heritage' experience. Noticed many heritage events on the Continent being very popular without a single steam loco in sight as they are marketed properly.

Had a couple of questions about why had a diesel on Sunday but once I explained it was down to the fire risk and that we had a few the last couple of weeks they were ok about it. When at Duffield we even had a few people look around the cab before running round.

The weekend before was also a planned diesel weekend and was advertised on Facebook with the allocations and driver experiences with the 08 on the incline.

 

[Trainlog]

Are you saying that the train that saved Britain's railways was "just a noisy box"? Many are much more historically significant than you are implying.

In regards to your comments about DMUs, other than pacers, most were withdrawn from the national network at least 30-40 years ago. These offer the unique experience of having a panoramic, drivers eye view out the front and back windows of the line ahead.

And in regards to your comments about diesel hauled services, there are very few regular loco hauled services remaining on the national network. I would argue that going on a heritage diesel hauled service is more similar to a steam hauled service than a regular diesel service on the mainline - the actual passenger accomadation is identical between a diesel and steam hauled service!

Have you ever actually ridden behind a a heritage diesel hauled service, and heard the sound and smell they make? Nothing like whats on the mainline!!!

I think ignoring the points regarding recency towards some of the diesel types, the rest does explain very well as to why diesel isn't as exciting as steam to the public and many enthusiasts. A metallic 'dragon' that is mechanically interesting with exposed valve gear and clear visual differences from tender and tank locos, versus a diesel generator in a monotonous steel shell.

Your points on DMUs being good for panoramic views are a good point, I didn't mind the DMU for the views on the NNR when I went and saw that line, and your point on steam bans is also valid.

However, this is why projects such as the NYMR's Dame Vera Lynn one for oil firing, along with publishing data from biocoal trials, are so important to the sector and should be encouraged.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Are you saying that the train that saved Britain's railways was "just a noisy box"? Many are much more historically significant than you are implying.

In regards to your comments about DMUs, other than pacers, most were withdrawn from the national network at least 30-40 years ago. These offer the unique experience of having a panoramic, drivers eye view out the front and back windows of the line ahead.

And in regards to your comments about diesel hauled services, there are very few regular loco hauled services remaining on the national network. I would argue that going on a heritage diesel hauled service is more similar to a steam hauled service than a regular diesel service on the mainline - the actual passenger accomadation is identical between a diesel and steam hauled service!

Have you ever actually ridden behind a a heritage diesel hauled service, and heard the sound and smell they make? Nothing like whats on the mainline!!!

I'm saying that to the public at large, a steam locomotive is an exciting attraction, a piece of history, an exciting working industrial machine. A "noisy vibrating smelly box" is what they often find is delayed when they're waiting for the 0745 to local-town. Most people don't care about Deltics and thrash. To them there are "steam trains" and "others", the "others" still being about the place and often being delayed and overcrowded and a bit crap.

If we'd had widespread electrification I can see people getting excited about diesel traction, but given it is how most regional services are provided it just isn't that interesting? You and I might know that a 195 and a 101 are generations apart but the experience isn't wildly different. Likewise a Deltic or a 37 hauling some Mk3s isn't dissimilar to EMR or LNER or GWR within the last 15 years rattling as part of a IC125 - hardly worth travelling for. (Hell, if you lived on the Cumbrian coast line it was just part of life a few years ago...)

Diesels are fine, I guess, if you're into that, but I can see why heritage (again, read "Steam") Railways don't actively promote "relive the railway of 2015" - the all-in "1950s" experience of well-staffed stations, vintage outfits and alike is simply a much more compelling event to sell premium tickets for.

They have a historical value in terms of the British Railway, but they aren't yet novel - why would I pay premium for a day out on a train which isn't notably different to my local commute? I want the magic, the steam, the sense of a different era.

I'm not saying that's correct, I'm just saying that I imagine that is a very common viewpoint. Steam trains are a unique and historical thing now beyond a lot of people's memory - a noisy smelly box of vibrations is the daily commute.

And, again, I reiterate that I'm sure when the first heritage railways opened a lot of people were saying the same thing then - that steam trains are noisy and horrible and smelly and why would anyone want to experience that? Give it 50 years and a rolling electrification programme and diesel might be something exciting. But until then, you're trying to sell "remember your commute a while back? Here it is again but now it costs you more as a day out!" which is probably a harder sell than showing your kids a steam engine - with its seemingly instant personality and engineering wizardry on full show - chugging about the place.