Why don't London Midland serve Manchester?

[The Ham]

What is needed is trains of a sensible length, rather than Voyagers.

One possible solution is to split (short term until electrification) the XC services so that they run Manchester to Coventry by 8 coach EMU's (110mph) and south coast by Voyagers up to Birmingham Airport.

If nothing else it would provide better capacity along that core, however it will also free up at least four Voyagers for use elsewhere to strengthen services.

Potentially allowing all the services between Manchester and the South Coast to be run as a single Voyager to Basingstoke, a pair of Voyagers to Birmingham international with the northern section being run by EMU's between Coventry and Manchester.

That would mean that XC could then focus on NW to SW to provide capacity on those services.
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Of course if the existing Manchester to south coast services are run by 221's then, if my suggestion is carried out, then they could be run by 220's (doubed up between Basingstoke and Birmingham international).

That would mean that the services previously run by 220's would then be run by 221's, which would provide them with a little more capacity.

It would also reduce the number of DMU's running through New Street.

 

[the sniper]

I'm struggling to imagine a 'solution' that'd be any more unpopular with passengers than that...

 

[The Planner]

So you are clogging up both Coventry and Birmingham International with more terminating services?

 

[6Gman]

So you are clogging up both Coventry and Birmingham International with more terminating services?

And no through services from the south to New Street?

 

[anti-pacer]

Take that argument to its logical conclusion and you might ask why a company called 'East Midlands Trains' serves London, Norwich, Manchester and Liverpool.

Or a company named Southern serves Milton Keynes.

Or Arriva Trains Wales running to Manchester.

Milton Keynes is in the South. OK, only just, but it's officially in the South East.

 

[QueensCurve]

Are you suggesting Birmingham - Manchester services go over to LM? If so, presumably the existing XC services from the South would terminate at Birmingham?

Or are you suggesting an additional hourly Birmingham - Manchester service, making the overall frequency of Birmingham - Manchester 3tph? If so, what sort of path and calling pattern would you propose? I'd like to see it, but I'm not sure you can reliably fit more trains in.

The Norton Bridge Flyover is supposed to provide, amongst other things, an additional hourly path from Birmingham to Manchester via Stoke.

I think the intention is that this will be taken up by an additional Brum to Manchester working calling at the likes of Penkridge and Stone.

It seems conceivable that the new service might fall within the LM or replacement franchise.
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Silverlink franchise I believe? Theres videos of them leaving Warrington Bank Quay so it definately happened. Wish it still did but thats just me being selfish as the connection onto LM at Crewe is very poor. (and tight as its far cheaper than VT!)

I have problem with that connection too. If they can't keep the Virgin on time at intermediate stations, there should be a more relaxed connection.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It seems conceivable that the new service might fall within the LM or replacement franchise.

Indeed. http://www.railengineer.uk/2015/07/30/easing-the-flow/ says:

» One extra fast train per hour (each direction) between Manchester and Birmingham – pathed for a Class 350.

 

[QueensCurve]

It's already been stated Manchester already has 2 trains an hour to Birmingham courtesy of Cross-country, I don't see why they need more?

To serve Stone, Penkridge and possibly others such as Kidsgrove.

 

[PHILIPE]

To serve Stone, Penkridge and possibly others such as Kidsgrove.

These are already served, maybe changing though.
The topic is about LM not serving Manchester, but why should they ?
Question to DFT, I wonder.

 

[The Ham]

And no through services from the south to New Street?

There would still be 1tph from Southampton/Reading which would go to New Street.
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So you are clogging up both Coventry and Birmingham International with more terminating services?

Both of which would likely be able to cope with it better than trying to run a new LM service into New Street.

 

[Class 170101]

Frankly if another service is permitted between Birmingham New Street and Manchester Piccadilly it should be aq through service from New Street to Piccadilly. eg a London to Birmingham Virgin Trains service extended to / from Manchester or similar for LM.

 

[The Ham]

I'm struggling to imagine a 'solution' that'd be any more unpopular with passengers than that...

How unpopular would be a doubling of seating on XC services for that route (an increase of 1/3 over that axis).. Yes it would mean that for quite a few people that they would have to change, however that would only be for a shortish time until electrification allowed the electric services to run further.

Also, from Basingstoke to Manchester although it is quicker to go direct on the 1tph using XC or using XC services with one change every other hour there are many more services going via London (upto 4tph) which aren't much slower (bearing in mind that rail journey planners give you far too much time to get across London), for a lot of people having the flexibility to travel more closely to when they want to would be quite attractive.

 

[The Planner]

Frankly if another service is permitted between Birmingham New Street and Manchester Piccadilly it should be aq through service from New Street to Piccadilly. eg a London to Birmingham Virgin Trains service extended to / from Manchester or similar for LM.

Thats a very good shout.

 

[fowler9]

Perhaps we could stop a LM service an hour to Liverpool and run it to Manchester instead. Perhaps we could just stop running trains to Liverpool! Ha ha.

 

[anti-pacer]

Perhaps we could stop a LM service an hour to Liverpool and run it to Manchester instead. Perhaps we could just stop running trains to Liverpool! Ha ha.

I'd support one of Liverpool's half hourly LM services running to Manchester instead if Liverpool could be put back on the XC network. A city of that size deserves better.

 

[fowler9]

I'd support one of Liverpool's half hourly LM services running to Manchester instead if Liverpool could be put back on the XC network. A city of that size deserves better.

I agree with that. Any reason Birmingham has no First Trans Pennine Express service?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thats a very good shout.

As was introduced in 1967 after electrification.
Alternately to Manchester and Liverpool (they were later chopped back to Birmingham and sent to Bristol/Reading instead, as the start of XC).
Plus ça change.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd support one of Liverpool's half hourly LM services running to Manchester instead if Liverpool could be put back on the XC network. A city of that size deserves better.

With regards to the Manchester services, do you think that Arriva Rail North would be somewhat put out with regards to the Manchester to Stoke part of that aspiration and be looking at the wording of the new franchise documentation?

 

[anti-pacer]

With regards to the Manchester services, do you think that Arriva Rail North would be somewhat put out with regards to the Manchester to Stoke part of that aspiration and be looking at the wording of the new franchise documentation?

Probably but I'd like to see a service running as follows;

London Euston-Watford Junction-MKC-Northampton-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham Int-New Street-Sandwell & Dudley-Wolverhampton-Stafford-Stone-Stoke-Congleton-Macclesfield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably but I'd like to see a service running as follows;

London Euston-Watford Junction-MKC-Northampton-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham Int-New Street-Sandwell & Dudley-Wolverhampton-Stafford-Stone-Stoke-Congleton-Macclesfield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly.

Why do you think such a service as this has never been put into operation?

 

[6Gman]

Why do you think such a service as this has never been put into operation?

Lots of people in Oldbury want to visit Stone.

 

[iantherev]

I'd support one of Liverpool's half hourly LM services running to Manchester instead if Liverpool could be put back on the XC network. A city of that size deserves better.

That's got to be the first time on this forum I've ever noticed someone asking for a Voyager operated service!

 

[317 forever]

Class 323s did run on Manchester Piccadilly - Birmingham New Street, I certainly remember them, as does one of my colleagues who was an Airport guard, who also signed Class 322s and had route knowledge to Euston via Northampton. There was an overnight turn on Manchester - Brum workings.

Peak time semi-fasts (think it was a 1Hxx headcode) between Stoke-on-Trent and Piccadilly lasted until the VHF timetable was introduced. I remember them on diagrams in 2006/7, so lasted into the Northern franchise.

When LM and XC was created out of the CT carve-up, DfT wanted LM to run a Manchester - Brum service, either taking over the existing paths or as a new service, but either the figures or path didn't work out, so was quietly binned.

As for Milton Keynes, we are classed as the MKSM (Milton Keynes South Midlands) growth area or officially the South East of England thanks to the EU.

Personally, I think Manchester is lucky not to have London Midland serving it, or any of the other useless sister companies/TOCs/brands it cannot manage competently.

I rode a GM 323 from Crewe to Birmingham New Street in 1997. I think it was just a limited service though. Conversely, I rode a Centro 323 from Runcorn to Birmingham in 1996 covering for a 310.
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I agree with that. Any reason Birmingham has no First Trans Pennine Express service?

It could be said that Manchester now has no First TransPennine Express service, but just a TransPennine Express service!

Joking aside, I think the reason is that Birmingham Express not serving London is mainly Cross Country, while Manchester Express not serving London or Birmingham is mainly TransPennine Express.

 

[BurtonM]

Six pages and no mention of the FNW Manchester - Euston service run by 322s?
I'm a little surprised.
Does the fact something similar has happened already and only lasted ~2 years suggest people might not want such a service.
As someone who used to do Manchester-Wolverhampton on XC once or twice a week, I have to agree that any extra service from the (West) Midlands to Manchester should be a fast service with a calling pattern something like Stockport-Crewe-Wolves-New St. Perhaps run by something like a double 185 or 350 with tables.

 

[Greybeard33]

TfGM's Local Rail Service Update, dated 13 Oct 2016, has a section about the West Midlands ITT, including the following:

29.3 Although the West Midlands franchise does not directly serve the Greater
Manchester area at the moment, it does serve locations in the travel to
work area, including Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe. The headline changes in
the Invitation to Tender are additional capacity through longer trains on
many routes, improved evening and Sunday services on most routes,
frequency improvements on some of the Birmingham commuter routes
and a new service between Birmingham and Crewe via Wolverhampton
and Stoke-on-Trent. This will remove the Crewe to London via the Trent
Valley services from the Stoke-on-Trent loop, allowing the operation of
longer trains.

29.4 We have identified an opportunity to extend the new Birmingham to Crewe
service to Manchester Airport, which will support the Manchester Airport
Group’s ambitions to improve access to the Staffordshire and West
Midlands markets with direct train services. There is strong evidence to
suggest a good market exists for direct train services from these areas.
We have arranged meetings with both of the franchise bidders and
Transport for West Midlands to discuss these opportunities further, share
our evidence and to encourage the bidders to include proposals in their
bids.

If this service were to terminate at the Airport in addition to all the Northern and TPE services from the Manchester direction, I should think Airport platform occupancy might become problematic. From Dec 2017 there will no longer be any paths for services from the Airport to terminate at Piccadilly, but maybe the West Midlands service could be combined with one of the Northern or TPE services from the Airport to points beyond Manchester, and operated jointly?

 

[CommuterPigeon]

If the path doesn't go to the West Midlands franchise, it could be offered as an extension to the current East Midlands Derby-Stoke-Crewe service for bidders on that. I'd imagine it would make for some positive headlines being able to give the East Midlands a direct connection to Manchester Airport given how poorly connected it is to airports at the moment.

 

[Trainfan344]

TfGM's Local Rail Service Update, dated 13 Oct 2016, has a section about the West Midlands ITT, including the following:


If this service were to terminate at the Airport in addition to all the Northern and TPE services from the Manchester direction, I should think Airport platform occupancy might become problematic. From Dec 2017 there will no longer be any paths for services from the Airport to terminate at Piccadilly, but maybe the West Midlands service could be combined with one of the Northern or TPE services from the Airport to points beyond Manchester, and operated jointly?

Will this new service not terminate at the Airpot from the west and then depart back west again? Not going into Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Greybeard33]

Will this new service not terminate at the Airpot from the west and then depart back west again? Not going into Manchester Piccadilly.

If it terminates, the West Midlands service will have to occupy one of the Airport platforms (or at least half of it, if only 4-car) during the turnround. It is already planned that there will be 9-10tph from the Manchester direction (4 TPE, 5 Northern and possibly 1 ATW) terminating at the Airport, plus one Northern service continuing to Wilmslow and Crewe. I was wondering if the four Airport platforms will have the capacity to accommodate yet another terminating service, particularly after TPE introduces its new 5-car trains that will each need a platform to itself. At present, double occupancy is employed to increase platform capacity - each platform can take two trains up to 4-car length.

 

[frodshamfella]

If the path doesn't go to the West Midlands franchise, it could be offered as an extension to the current East Midlands Derby-Stoke-Crewe service for bidders on that. I'd imagine it would make for some positive headlines being able to give the East Midlands a direct connection to Manchester Airport given how poorly connected it is to airports at the moment.

Although anyone living in the East or West Midlands, wouldn't pickup Manchester Airport out of choice, they would naturally fly from Birmingham or East Midlands Airport.

 

[fowler9]

Although anyone living in the East or West Midlands, wouldn't pickup Manchester Airport out of choice, they would naturally fly from Birmingham or East Midlands Airport.

Whilst I get your point I can see why some would want a link to Manchester. Do Birmingham or East Midlands have as frequent links by Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, PIA, Saudia, Cathay, Singapore, Air Canada, Air Transat, Belavia, Delta, American, Hainan, Finnair, Icelandair, Shaheen, United and Virgin?