Why I believe Penalty Fares can be unfair

[Bletchleyite]

What happened is that, after selecting the ticket, I was warned that it was only available for holders of certain documentation and, importantly, it then asked me to enter the number on my documentation. I entered a random sequence of numbers and sale was refused. Now, whether that was because it had access to a database of all valid numbers or just that the format was wrong I do not know ....

Probably a checksum of some kind in the Railcard number (similar to the way credit card numbers work). It needn't be complicated, just needs to make sure that either (a) you have an actual Railcard, or (b) you have clearly deliberately made up a number cracking the checksum code and thus there is a record of obvious deliberate fraud.
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The fact is that in most instances all an automatic barrier gate actually protects in a practical sense is the minimum fare to the next stop along the line.

Indeed (and thanks for the link). What I was referring to was a key advantage barriers provide to passengers which is often ignored when people moan about them - they prevent accidental ticketless (but not Railcardless) travel.

 

[Oswyntail]

See, once again you are thinking that my attitude and sarcasm towards you and others in this thread is the way I act when I am at work, of which you know nothing about and are totally wrong.....

I don't think I or anyone has said anything about how you behave at work, only that you come across here as heavily sarcastic and intolerant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then if I was an 'opportunist railcard forgetter', I would make sure that my one let-off per year was with the most expensive journey, so that other passengers were paying mine.

You wouldn't be "let off", as if you failed to present your Railcard within the specified time period the PF would stand. If you did present it, you've still cost yourself a £10 admin fee.

If you are then getting into fraud like people selling their let-offs to others, we are heading well into prosecution territory and there are ways around it - how are you going to know at the point of giving your name to be PFed which name to use and who has a spare "let-off"? Workarounds to that are heading into "far too complicated for the casual fare dodger".
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One change I'd make that I don't think anyone has suggested here is to allow passengers who realise before departure that their railcard is missing to excess a railcard-discounted advance to the non-railcard advance at the same tier.

Hadn't thought of that. I like that idea.

 

[dcsprior]

Probably a checksum of some kind in the Railcard number (similar to the way credit card numbers work). It needn't be complicated, just needs to make sure that either (a) you have an actual Railcard, or (b) you have clearly deliberately made up a number cracking the checksum code and thus there is a record of obvious deliberate fraud.
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Indeed (and thanks for the link). What I was referring to was a key advantage barriers provide to passengers which is often ignored when people moan about them - they prevent accidental ticketless (but not Railcardless) travel.

I believe the checksum algorithms commonly used for verifying credit/debit cards and barcodes are designed mainly to avoid accidental miskeying - for instance the Luhn algorithm used for most payment cards will detect:

• any individual digit being miskeyed (i.e. 12345677 -> 12341677)
• almost all cases where a single pair of neighbouring digits are keyed in reverse (i.e. 12345677 -> 12435677)
• but it's poor at detecting repeating digits being miskeyed as two different repeating digits (e.g. 12345677 -> 12345644, which is an easy mistake to make on a numberpad)

 

[Llanigraham]

The infrastructure already exists. TVMs and ticket offices already have on-line connections of some sort, and ATOC already hold a database of railcards that have been sold on-line.

It wouldn't be expensive to roll this out to railcards sold at ticket offices.

Also if the Advantix replacement has an on-line connection (now is the ideal time to do it whilst it is being developed and tested), then it need not be too costly.

Do they? I'd like to see some evidence of that.
Certainly the TVMs locally don't!

 

[sheff1]

No, it's proving that yet again, posters on this site will try and take a simple easily understood and implemented system, and make it into something complicated and difficult to administer, and think that all it needs is the wave of a magic wand "to make it so"! :roll:

It has been debated to death on so many threads that at this stage it's gone way past funny, tiresome disappeared in the rear-view mirror a long time ago, and it's just become annoying.

There was nothing at all in your intial reply which referred to the (already working) system I mentioned. I am none the wiser now as to why such a system would be 'complicated and difficult to administer' in the UK - if it has been debated to death elsewhere, I have missed it.

 

[Flamingo]

There was nothing at all in your intial reply which referred to the (already working) system I mentioned. I am none the wiser now as to why such a system would be 'complicated and difficult to administer' in the UK - if it has been debated to death elsewhere, I have missed it.

Yes, you have.

 

[sheff1]

Yes, you have.

Well, that does not assist my understanding as to why such a system would be 'complicated and difficult to administer' in the UK.

 

[Haywain]

One change I'd make that I don't think anyone has suggested here is to allow passengers who realise before departure that their railcard is missing to excess a railcard-discounted advance to the non-railcard advance at the same tier.

Some TOCs already do this.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, that does not assist my understanding as to why such a system would be 'complicated and difficult to administer' in the UK.

Then use the search function on the site. It's been done to death so often, by people who seem to think they are re-inventing the wheel, with enough "whataboutry" and "itshouldbelikethisry" to put anybody to sleep.

The system is in place because it is simple, and difficult to defraud. There is nothing in it for any TOC to put time and effort into reforming it as it seems to work ok. Tens of thousands of passengers every day manage it without any problem. I see them.

If there was any move to make the administration of them too onerous on the TOC's, I could see pressure to abandon them completely. I seriously doubt that the number of extra passengers the railcards attract to the railway would make the abolishment of railcards anything more than revenue-neutral given the extra revenue that would be taken.

Any extra costs involved in changing it will have to be borne by the railcard users (as I don't see why anybody else should pay), quite how much this would increase the cost of each railcard I wouldn't like to guess, but I'd say it would be a significant amount.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I seriously doubt that the number of extra passengers the railcards attract to the railway would make the abolishment of railcards anything more than revenue-neutral given the extra revenue that would be taken.

If that were true then railcards wouldn't be sold.

 

[Fare-Cop]

If that were true then railcards wouldn't be sold.

They were introduced at a time when rail patronage by some sectors of society and on some services wasn't what it is now.

Following rapid proliferation of RC types I'm sure many of us recall the humorous debate about why can't we have a 'Railcard for people who don't qualify for a Railcard'

Times have changed

 

[Flamingo]

If that were true then railcards wouldn't be sold.

Railcards are sold in large part as a "social nicety" (I can't think of a better way of putting it), so that groups that would be seen as having little option (disabled, the elderly, students and young people who might not be earning much) are given a discount, or in the Southeast where the population (and traffic) is perceived to be densest, to encourage people on to off-peak public transport.

They are "Big Picture" stuff, and if too difficult, then I could see TOC's thinking they are more hassle than they are worth.

Of course, the marketing people and politicians would never allow them to be abolished, but as posters have pointed out, any system that was designed to prevent the hard of thinking forgetting their railcard (and by extension, making it harder for those not entitled to the discount to purchase these tickets "accidentally") will result, through the law of unintended consequences, in difficulties for a large number of users who are using their cards legitimately at present.

Be careful what you wish for, covers this nicely.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Yes, a 'social nicety' is a pretty good description of the product as it has grown to become.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Do they? I'd like to see some evidence of that.
Certainly the TVMs locally don't!

They must do. Otherwise it would not be possible for them to allow for ToD. BTW on-line does not necessarily mean on the Internet. It could refer to any computer network.

 

[island]

I would suggest that passengers wishing to benefit from discounted fares should carry the relevant Railcard with them, like they agreed to do when they purchased it!

 

[Llanigraham]

ToD?

And having seen the ticket machine fitted at Caersws, the only connections made were live, neutral and earth! No other wiring fitted.
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I would suggest that passengers wishing to benefit from discounted fares should carry the relevant Railcard with them, like they agreed to do when they purchased it!

Quite!

 

[pne]

ToD?

Tickets on Departure, i.e. buying a ticket on-line and picking it up at a ToD-enabled TVM.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They've fitted a TVM at Caersws? Surprising. Must cost more to service that than the loss from the odd person getting away without paying. Unless ATW are planning a Penalty Fares Scheme?

 

[Llanigraham]

They have, and a lot of people try to use it and fail..........................

 

[najaB]

...that does not assist my understanding as to why such a system would be 'complicated and difficult to administer' in the UK.

Comparisons to what happens elsewhere in Europe sometimes fail because afaik, no other European railway is as diverse as ours. We have a multitude of TOCs, using several different booking engines, the TVMs are from several different manufacturers, and even those from the same manufacturers differ significantly in capabilities.

This heterogeneous environment makes implementing any changes significantly more tricky than it does in more homogeneous environments found on the continent.

 

[anme]

Comparisons to what happens elsewhere in Europe sometimes fail because afaik, no other European railway is as diverse as ours. We have a multitude of TOCs, using several different booking engines, the TVMs are from several different manufacturers, and even those from the same manufacturers differ significantly in capabilities.

This heterogeneous environment makes implementing any changes significantly more tricky than it does in more homogeneous environments found on the continent.

Fair point - but that is largely our own fault. It's really a shame that passengers have to suffer because of it.

We have managed to design a system where significant change a) is very difficult and expensive, and b) can only realistically be driven by politicians and civil servants. Quite curious for a "privatised" railway.

 

[Clip]

I don't think I or anyone has said anything about how you behave at work, only that you come across here as heavily sarcastic and intolerant.

You mean apart from the post where you said I shouldnt be let near the public then? Yeah that one.

but you're right, I should leave this to the armchair experts with their what ifs and opinions on how it should be rather than dealing in the facts of how railcards and penalty fares work in the real world.

 

[Oswyntail]

If you genuinely cannot see the difference between exercising discretion and your ridiculous last sentence, I suspect you should not be dealing with the public.

You mean apart from the post where you said I shouldnt be let near the public then? Yeah that one. ....

Note the "If" bit of the sentence. Of course, if you are admitting you cannot tell the difference....