Why I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a physical ticket

[Halwynd]

I can refer to my own experience in banking. We've lost a huge number of bank branches in recent years but many of the branches that closed were only serving a handful of customers each week. I remember one branch we closed which in a typical week completed less than 20 transactions - yet there was a petition and protest. Many of the people involved in the protest were not even our account holders.

It is simply not viable to keep a service channel (whether it's a bank, a shop or a ticket office) open and staffed when so few people are using it, and when alternative options exist and are used by the vast majority of customers.

Indeed - but you were able to quantify the transactions likely to be lost - and at 20 transactions per week I would have made the same decision. I still receive the odd cheque every few months. I'd really rather receive the money by BACS, but my banking App has the facility to let me deposit it by scanning and is a good example of where technology works great. And, crucially, if I didn't have the App, my bank - as many now do - gives me other alternatives such as paying in at a Post Office or sending it to them in the post - as well as at a branch.

The railway will never be able to quantify how much business it might lose - or never gain - if it restricts opportunities to sell. A ticket machine as an alternative is fine, but in my experience their reliability needs to improve and the ever-present threat of Penalty Fares for those unable to buy a ticket, or who make an honest mistake, ought to be revisited.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - but you were able to quantify the transactions likely to be lost - and at 20 transactions per week I would have made the same decision. I still receive the odd cheque every few months. I'd really rather receive the money by BACS, but my banking App has the facility to let me deposit it by scanning and is a good example of where technology works great. And, crucially, if I didn't have the App, my bank - as many now do - gives me other alternatives such as paying in at a Post Office or sending it to them in the post - as well as at a branch.

The railway will never be able to quantify how much business it might lose - or never gain - if it restricts opportunities to sell. A ticket machine as an alternative is fine, but in my experience their reliability needs to improve and the ever-present threat of Penalty Fares for those unable to buy a ticket, or who make an honest mistake, ought to be revisited.

How? It can quantify ticket office usage now, and work out what proportion it thinks will switch to other methods of purchase. No different to the bank at all.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Indeed - but you were able to quantify the transactions likely to be lost - and at 20 transactions per week I would have made the same decision. I still receive the odd cheque every few months. I'd really rather receive the money by BACS, but my banking App has the facility to let me deposit it by scanning and is a good example of where technology works great. And, crucially, if I didn't have the App, my bank - as many now do - gives me other alternatives such as paying in at a Post Office or sending it to them in the post - as well as at a branch.

The railway will never be able to quantify how much business it might lose - or never gain - if it restricts opportunities to sell. A ticket machine as an alternative is fine, but in my experience their reliability needs to improve and the ever-present threat of Penalty Fares for those unable to buy a ticket, or who make an honest mistake, ought to be revisited.

I'm not sure there's many, if any, people who won't travel just because the booking office is shut.

 

[Halwynd]

How? It can quantify ticket office usage now, and work out what proportion it thinks will switch to other methods of purchase. No different to the bank at all.

I was just offering an opinion in this thread based on my own views and experience, but I don't believe that I am always right. Some might agree with my thoughts, some will disagree, and that is great. I hope you'll forgive me Bletchleyite, but I'd rather not get into a Banking vs Railway discussion, or the relative merits about how their computer systems may or may not make their predictions because I have experience of neither.

 

[DelayRepay]

The railway will never be able to quantify how much business it might lose - or never gain - if it restricts opportunities to sell. A ticket machine as an alternative is fine, but in my experience their reliability needs to improve and the ever-present threat of Penalty Fares for those unable to buy a ticket, or who make an honest mistake, ought to be revisited.

You could look at London Underground, or TOCs where booking offices have reduced their hours or closed to get an idea of the impact.

I agree with your comment about the need to re-visit the way Penalty Fares (and indeed prosecution for ticketing offences) are dealt with but this isn't an argument for retaining booking offices.

 

[Halwynd]

I'm not sure there's many, if any, people who won't travel just because the booking office is shut.

Well, if you have a read of my first post a few weeks ago you'll see that I am one - although substitute ticket machine for booking office. My views about businesses offering choice to customers stands I'm afraid. But I do take my hat off to you for your perserverance on this!

 

[vic-rijrode]

Little did I realise the furore I would create when posting my original comment on buying Day Rovers or Rangers from a physical ticket office. I merely wanted to say that I found it easier to buy one of these tickets on the day I travel from a ticket office. I am no technophobe and I do have a contactless NEXUS bus pass with the Metro travel pass added to it. Plus I do have a smart phone that is always with me.

The argument seems to me to boil down to:

Those folks who object to being told to use an e-ticket, or TVM because it costs money to man ticket offices - without any quantifiable cost being put forward.
Those folks who quite reasonably argue that using a digital device or TVM is much more convenient and safe than having to deal with a physical ticket.

You pays your money and takes your choice. Final word from me.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Well, if you have a read of my first post a few weeks ago you'll see that I am one - although substitute ticket machine for booking office. My views about businesses offering choice to customers stands I'm afraid. But I do take my hat off to you for your perserverance on this!

So you're saying if there's no ticket office and ticket machine you won't travel, rather than buy from the guard on the train? That seems to be cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

[Halwynd]

So you're saying if there's no ticket office and ticket machine you won't travel, rather than buy from the guard on the train? That seems to be cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Yes, that's right. The railway's penalty fare and prosecution regime is such that I will now only board a train if I have a ticket. Ideally a paper ticket or, second best, an eTicket. But you'll need to read the context behind my decision which is in this thread:

Northern Ticket Machines

For the first time in over two years, this morning I set out to make a journey using Northern. My local unstaffed station now has one of the 'new' large glass plate ticket machines, so I selected my ticket and the price was displayed on the screen and on the Chip & PIN keypad. I placed Debit...

www.railforums.co.uk

Also, I tried to purchase an eTicket last Saturday using Northern and Avanti (short distance, walk-up £9.80) but a couple of TOC websites, plus Trainsplit, wouldn't do so.

It might seem like I'm cutting my nose of to spite my face, but I don't see it that way because I have a car that I can use without having to worry about broken ticket machines, the railways unwillingness to sell me a walk-up day return ticket, printing off PDFs as a backup 'just-in-case', carrying a portable battery charger around with me 'just-in-case' - etc. etc.

Maybe not, but it will likely be countered by what it gains from making newer methods available.

Yes, I do agree that this might be the case, but my view is that the railway is a public transport service that is used by many folk who don't have alternatives, or where alternatives are difficult - as well as those who do - and that it should be as accessible and easy to use for as many as possible, even if there is a net cost attributable to that.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Yes, that's right. The railway's penalty fare and prosecution regime is such that I will now only board a train if I have a ticket. Ideally a paper ticket or, second best, an eTicket. But you'll need to read the context behind my decision which is in this thread:

Northern Ticket Machines

For the first time in over two years, this morning I set out to make a journey using Northern. My local unstaffed station now has one of the 'new' large glass plate ticket machines, so I selected my ticket and the price was displayed on the screen and on the Chip & PIN keypad. I placed Debit...

www.railforums.co.uk

I tried to purchase an eTicket last Saturday using Northern and Avanti (short distance, walk-up £9.80) but a couple of TOC websites, plus Trainsplit, wouldn't do so.

It might seem like I'm cutting my nose of to spite my face, but I don't see it that way because I have a car that I can use without having to worry about broken ticket machines, the railways unwillingness to sell me a walk-up day return ticket, printing off PDFs as a backup 'just-in-case', carrying a portable battery charger around with me 'just-in-case' - etc. etc.

I'd just use the car.
But if there's no ticket office and no ticket machine (as most stations are) then you can just board without a ticket as thousands do every day with no issues at all. I'm unaware of anyone ever being prosecuted for boarding at a station with no purchasing facilities.

 

[Halwynd]

I'd just use the car.
But if there's no ticket office and no ticket machine (as most stations are) then you can just board without a ticket as thousands do every day with no issues at all. I'm unaware of anyone ever being prosecuted for boarding at a station with no purchasing facilities.

My station does have a ticket machine - it has been broken twice in a month. On the first occasion there was no indication that it was broken, otherwise I might have been tempted to take a picture and chance it (note to self.. I need to carry a camera or smartphone with me at all times in case I need evidence of a broken ticket machine 'just-in-case').

On the second occasion I learned that it was broken by looking at Journeycheck and then attempting, and failing, to buy an eTicket (note to self.. I might also need to take a screenshot, transfer it to my smartphone or print it off, 'just-in-case')

I really just want to give the railway my money as quickly and as easily as possible without wondering whether an action I take might run the risk or penalty fare or prosecution!

Please have a read of the whole thread I linked to above for a more detailed explanation of the circumstances.

 

[AM9]

The same old people who only like cash and won't use contactless, will use an ENCTS card because it gets them travel free. These are the same people who would refuse to use the bus if technology was the only way to pay, but as it's free suddenly they can use it!

More slagging off 'old people' by somebody who doesn't understand why ENCTS passes are so popular. For that that would otherwise use cash, the pass means that they just touch it on the reader. No going online, no worrying about keeping a device charged, no printing, a simple credit-card sized plastic pass that fits in their purse. However all these feeble old people somehow manage to not lose their passes, unlike the excuse posted so many times in this and another thread specifically about removing CCSTs because they are so easy to lose, - by younger people strange as it may seem.

 

[Cowley]

Is cash dying out?
Who knows…
But you can chat about it in the new thread below and won’t even cost you anything.

Is the use of cash dying out?

Do you mean the distinction between an Oyster card (the card which stores money) and a contactless bank card (which just represents an account where the money is stored)? mods note - split from here. Of course not - I'm comparing either/both of these (neither of which is physical cash in your...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Runningaround]

Going out into the big wild world is less secure than staying at home (fact.) Another fact is that making a purchase in person is, in the vast majority of cases, simpler and quicker than making one online, from the point where you come to pay for something. In any case, when you pay online you don't usually get what you've paid for there and then, or possibly ever! I well remember the time last year when I visited my local Sainsburys, to discover a queue of about 100 people waiting to use their remaining ATM as the payment systems in the store were down other than for cash purchases. All three supermarkets in the town, almost next door to each other, were affected for some hours, although Morrisons chose to close. Me? I parked up and whizzed round the store, proffering my cash at the check out and gave a smug look towards the queue at the ATM on the way out,where the machine was about to be emptied.

You are the opposite of a technophobe of course, an avid admirer of the Emperor's New Clothes. It is inconceivable that every so-called technological 'advance' is any such thing. Only scammers/fraudsters/general scumbags will delight in the stupidity with which we ditch tried and tested methods to embrace the new and shiny, which soon become tired and tarnished. Personally, I equate this country's direst of the dire economic state and prospects with this staggering lack of discernment in choosing quality over novelty.

So one occasion then. What's the difference between using an ATM to putting your card on the reader ?
I've lost count on the number of ATM's that go haywire or run out of that cash you are looking for. So now my default is contactless payment. What's the point of hunting an ever rarer ATM to find it faulty then to look for another when I can avoid all that by paying contactless. The only place that don't do contactless around me are dodgy takeaways who pay '' are knackered at the busiest festivals and events as the machines have run out of cash late at night those who withdrew earlier on are now budgeting.

 

[Runningaround]

Indeed - but you were able to quantify the transactions likely to be lost - and at 20 transactions per week I would have made the same decision. I still receive the odd cheque every few months. I'd really rather receive the money by BACS, but my banking App has the facility to let me deposit it by scanning and is a good example of where technology works great. And, crucially, if I didn't have the App, my bank - as many now do - gives me other alternatives such as paying in at a Post Office or sending it to them in the post - as well as at a branch.

The railway will never be able to quantify how much business it might lose - or never gain - if it restricts opportunities to sell. A ticket machine as an alternative is fine, but in my experience their reliability needs to improve and the ever-present threat of Penalty Fares for those unable to buy a ticket, or who make an honest mistake, ought to be revisited.

The reliability of the ticket office is an even greater threat and if they don't work try explaining to on train staff it was closed when you tried to buy.
What if you know a ticket is valid and they refuse to sell it by not understanding the restrictions so will only sell you a far more expensive one? Or by you not having a railcard on the day of purchase for a ticket needed two months away?
Go online and it's all there in front of you to read and google or even ask on here at your leisure. You may even spot a ticket you'd not seen that's better than you thought, will the ticket office go through the pages of fares while a queue forms?

 

[ashkeba]

Just bought a new mid range Nokia, it doesn't have NFC.

I read NFC Forum saying it is just over half of smartphones with working NFC now, so it is literally correct to say most modern phone have it, but that still means almost half do not.

Let's prioritise e tickets everywhere before NFC because e tickets are more versatile. Difficult to print NFC.

 

[sor]

I read NFC Forum saying it is just over half of smartphones with working NFC now, so it is literally correct to say most modern phone have it, but that still means almost half do not.

Let's prioritise e tickets everywhere before NFC because e tickets are more versatile. Difficult to print NFC.

you don't *need* an NFC smartphone of course - smartcards can be used with the ticket machines both of the present or of the future, or you could do it TfL style where the system updates your card when you get to the barrier

and it's the "wallet sized ticket" that some clamour for

 

[Lucan]

I'm not sure there's many, if any, people who won't travel just because the booking office is shut.

Probably the majority of the UK population for whom the main deterrent to rail travel is that they don't have a clue about railway geography or railway ticketing. They need to start off with advice from someone. Whenever I have suggested to a non-rail traveller (a category which includes most people I know) that they use the train, even when doing so would be most advantageous, they look at me as if I have suggested that they travel via Mars. The railway needs to cater for more than just regular commuters and members of this forum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably the majority of the UK population for whom the main deterrent to rail travel is that they don't have a clue about railway geography or railway ticketing. They need to start off with advice from someone. Whenever I have suggested to a non-rail traveller (a category which includes most people I know) that they use the train, even when doing so would be most advantageous, they look at me as if I have suggested that they travel via Mars. The railway needs to cater for more than just regular commuters and members of this forum.

I reckon these days what most people will do is type their nearest station and their destination into Trainline (almost certainly actually Trainline, not NRE or anything else). If the latter doesn't feature they'll drive, which is why getting bus services properly integrated into timetables and fares to key destinations like Ambleside (via Windermere), Keswick (via Penrith), Bude (via Exeter), Llanberis (via Betws or Bangor) etc would be a really quite powerful marketing tool.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I suspect most people won't even do that and will put it in Google.

 

[Runningaround]

Probably the majority of the UK population for whom the main deterrent to rail travel is that they don't have a clue about railway geography or railway ticketing. They need to start off with advice from someone. Whenever I have suggested to a non-rail traveller (a category which includes most people I know) that they use the train, even when doing so would be most advantageous, they look at me as if I have suggested that they travel via Mars. The railway needs to cater for more than just regular commuters and members of this forum.

The majority of the UK railway stations do not have a booking office, many haven't a TVM. how do you suggest they go by travelling by train?
The ''Railway'' needs to make buying all fares and sourcing information as accessible as possible, this is where online information and ticket purchasing comes into it's own it's available 24/7.
I would never suggest they call NRE as they'd get nowhere outside a simple A to B enquiry if they are able to get to a booking office I'd suggest going no later than 30 minutes before departure as confusing a ticket office clerk with asking unfamiliar questions could lead to all sorts of miss-sold tickets or a refusal to sell a perfectly valid ticket. As we have seen here if they wanted to plan ahead and buy a railcard discounted ticket for a months time, but didn't yet have that railcard they can be refused the sale.

So avoiding the ticket office for infrequent or first time travel would be my advice and for them to search online in their own time and check what's available.

 

[AM9]

I suspect most people won't even do that and will put it in Google.

I which case Trainline's paid for advert will probably put it in front of them.

 

[Haywain]

I suspect most people won't even do that and will put it in Google.

And I suspect that most would be put off by the very mention of a bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I suspect that most would be put off by the very mention of a bus.

Many would, but many are more put off by buses being a bit of a mystery. Through tickets to obvious places should be there (and sold from all outlets, and including connection protection as per a train) in the planners. Physical integration at Windermere and Penrith is really very good, for example, no worse than anything you'd see in Switzerland, but it's heavily underused.

There was the early 2000s RailLinks thing, but fares integration wasn't quite there (they had to be ticketed separately) and the nascent online sales sites couldn't sell it, and a good many booking offices didn't get it either. (I did on occasion use that to my advantage, as MKC would quite happily sell stand alone railcard discounted tickets to Luton/Luton Airport and Oxford/Cambridge on the 99 and X5 even though they weren't meant to, it also meant you could pay by card in the days when on board was cash only).

 

[Haywain]

I did on occasion use that to my advantage, as MKC would quite happily sell stand alone railcard discounted tickets to Luton/Luton Airport

I used to use that a lot myself, especially as Priv fares were available until Virgin stopped sponsoring the service!

 

[davews]

As an aside, today and tomorrow the ticket office at Martins Heron and several other Reading line stations is closed, presumably a staffing issue. When I got there there was a lady, not that old, trying to use the TVM and having problems and another couple helping her. If they can't use the TVM what hope have we with e-tickets, phones, and what have you. (afterwards the machine did produce my tickets as required).

 

[johncrossley]

If they can't use the TVM what hope have we with e-tickets, phones, and what have you. (afterwards the machine did produce my tickets as required).

This is nothing new. Passengers have long been supposed to use the ticket machine whenever the ticket office is closed.

 

[AM9]

This is nothing new. Passengers have long been supposed to use the ticket machine whenever the ticket office is closed.

So if she boarded her train because there were no ticket facilities that she could use, shopuld she be penalty fared/prosecuted?

 

[johncrossley]

So if she boarded her train because there were no ticket facilities that she could use, shopuld she be penalty fared/prosecuted?

What do the rules say? If I recall, you always have an opportunity to explain why you didn't get a ticket and the passenger would tell the official of the inability to use the machine.

 

[tomuk]

What do the rules say? If I recall, you always have an opportunity to explain why you didn't get a ticket and the passenger would tell the official of the inability to use the machine.

If the TVM was working she would get a penalty fare. Unless she wanted to pay by cash and the TVM was card only.