Why is CrossCountry so overpriced?

[Irascible]

And you can bet that a good proportion of those Bristol Edinburgh flight journeys started further south west in the likes of Plymouth. Its all the more reason why we need better XC journeys to Scotland from the south west, preferably running up the West Coast for a quicker journey time. Maybe nationalisation will be a chance for XC to adapt its routes a little as presumably in the future any traincrew should in theory be able to work any train, so nothing stopping Preston drivers re-doing voyagers and covering Birmingham to Edinburgh for example.

A few of those will be going from Exeter too - Exeter to Scotland is lucrative enough for Logan that they keep jets on it for most trips. You'll never be fast enough to compete with air on that journey by rail - I've said it before, but if the flights were run as proper shuttles with 20 min turnrounds, you could fly there, back & there again & still beat the current train, mostly because it has to stop all over the place. Even using a slow turboprop like an ATR ( as Logan do sometimes ) doesn't slow the trip down enough to make rail remotely competitive. Trying to compete from Newquay would be far worse, even allowing for most people having to get to St Mawgan first.

 

[YorksLad12]

Derby-Sheffield-York is probably busy just because you can only get a fast train between these three stations (apart from three trains a day run by Northern from Sheffield-York which doesn't count because they are nowhere near as frequent as XC). Perhaps if Northern or EMR or any other operator ran a regional-express train between these stations you could see a lot less overcrowding on XC.

Not exactly; XC mostly run Derby-Sheffield-York via Leeds, sometimes Doncaster, never via Pontefract Baghill (unless on diversion). There's no money in running directly north from Moorthorpe, you miss out the big income generators.

 

[A S Leib]

Not exactly; XC mostly run Derby-Sheffield-York via Leeds, sometimes Doncaster, never via Pontefract Baghill (unless on diversion). There's no money in running directly north from Moorthorpe, you miss out the big income generators.

Granted, there's eleven stops on the existing Baghill services between Sheffield and York against just Wakefield Westgate and Leeds, but XC services are 45 minutes against 1:20 via Baghill.

 

[Travelmonkey]

The thing about the UK we do love a good moan, although I agree for the longer trips its been cheaper for me to go into London with LNWR and back out on the ECML than use XC, although I have been taking advantage of their crazy cheap Derby>Nottingham fares especially as EMR & Trent Barton charge pretty much treble, it gives me the counter question how can that flow be so cheap when the EMR train & "express coach" are so much more.

 

[LMS 4F]

Granted, there's eleven stops on the existing Baghill services between Sheffield and York against just Wakefield Westgate and Leeds, but XC services are 45 minutes against 1:20 via Baghill.

Some of the York-Sheffield miss out a couple of stops and they would all save more time if they could miss out Rotherham as do all the XC services.

 

[Krokodil]

According to the lastest ORR figures Cross Country services were being subsidised by 7p per passenger/kilometre overall in 2015/6, the worst of any of the ex Intercity franchises. I rather imagine its a lot worse post pandemic.

It's almost as if running short, low-density gas-guzzlers under electrified lines is not a very good business model.

d) increased subsidy to increase capacity - try taking that to HM Treasury

Ah, I've got a new idea to deal with the Treasury (and no, it's not thumbscrews this time). Simply relocate it to Burton-on-Trent. An office location close to the station with little parking will do. And ban them from working from home. If they had to use XC on a daily basis they'd be a bit more motivated to sort it out.

 

[mpthomson]

A few of those will be going from Exeter too - Exeter to Scotland is lucrative enough for Logan that they keep jets on it for most trips. You'll never be fast enough to compete with air on that journey by rail - I've said it before, but if the flights were run as proper shuttles with 20 min turnrounds, you could fly there, back & there again & still beat the current train, mostly because it has to stop all over the place. Even using a slow turboprop like an ATR ( as Logan do sometimes ) doesn't slow the trip down enough to make rail remotely competitive. Trying to compete from Newquay would be far worse, even allowing for most people having to get to St Mawgan first.

I've needed to go on business to Cornwall from the NE on a couple of occasions. I've always flown and still would even with better XC services. One hour on a plane, even with airport check in etc is so much better than 9 or 10 hrs on a train that the train is never going to be an option. LoganAir are normally roughly the same price or cheaper as well...

 

[silverfoxcc]

Live in Brsacknel and have to travel to Doncaster.. Takes best park of 2 hrs to get vback home from KX.Sitting at Doncaster saw a XC service advertised as going to Reading..20 mins from Bracknell, roughly same overall journey time, but not having to schlep through London. Tried to get prices but all were routed through London.!

 

[A S Leib]

Live in Brsacknel and have to travel to Doncaster.. Takes best park of 2 hrs to get vback home from KX.Sitting at Doncaster saw a XC service advertised as going to Reading..20 mins from Bracknell, roughly same overall journey time, but not having to schlep through London. Tried to get prices but all were routed through London.!

There are flexible Bracknell – Sheffield fares which are (no railcard, standard) £123 not via London vs £183 via Chesterfield for the off-peak return, or £246 vs £294 for anytime returns.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just to clarify, in the above examples, the route "via Chesterfield" tickets are route "✠via Chesterfield" so would potentially allow travel across Central London. And there are also walk-up route "✠via London" tickets, but they're priced by LNER, so you'd likely need 2 x singles if using them.

 

[Trainbike46]

Live in Brsacknel and have to travel to Doncaster.. Takes best park of 2 hrs to get vback home from KX.Sitting at Doncaster saw a XC service advertised as going to Reading..20 mins from Bracknell, roughly same overall journey time, but not having to schlep through London. Tried to get prices but all were routed through London.!

you could try forcing a route using XC by using various via points in the journey planners, or ask at a ticket office

 

[Mainline421]

Live in Brsacknel and have to travel to Doncaster.. Takes best park of 2 hrs to get vback home from KX.Sitting at Doncaster saw a XC service advertised as going to Reading..20 mins from Bracknell, roughly same overall journey time, but not having to schlep through London. Tried to get prices but all were routed through London.!

There aren't many left but here's one on Monday as an example.

Theoretically there's 4 day but most won't be running for the next few weeks https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-10-16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-10-16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[YorkRailFan]

XC trains are usually overcrowded. This implies they could be charging more.

That won't put people off traveling on their core routes. Some, like I have, may begin going via London when doing North East-South West trips, but those traveling into the Midlands from across XC's network don't really have another option apart from driving, and in some cases, coach.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Back when I was in uni in 2013, I'd take the late evening XC service to Dundee from Inverkeithing and it would cost me about £4 with a Railcard as a last minute advance ticket. Couldn't really complain! I'm probably a fringe case though.

That was thanks to XC having "Supersave" style tickets around that time. I used to do York-Exeter for £24 (single) with a railcard, during that time I was a regular traveler with XC as their fares were so cheap, especially compared to other TOCs.

 

[Jimini]

That won't put people off traveling on their core routes. Some, like I have, may begin going via London when doing North East-South West trips, but those traveling into the Midlands from across XC's network don't really have another option apart from driving, and in some cases, coach.

I'm tempted to do that (go via London) later on today just to get from Coventry to Reading, as every service this afternoon / early evening is a four car tiddler!

 

[317 forever]

To be fair, that was exactly the same advice in the 1960's with BR. Then you could get day returns between the individual legs, but had to pay full fare otherwise.
Now of course you can arrange the splits by using the internet-easy. In the 1960's you had to race over the footbridge buy tickets for the next leg and scurry back to the train hoping that your trainspotting mates had managed to delay the train departure by such means as randomly opening doors and preventing right away.

Oh, does this mean that in the 60s we could not at station A buy tickets from station B to station C?

So, for example, if we travel from Birmingham to Bristol, we could not buy the Cheltenham-Bristol ticket at Birmingham?

 

[jayah]

I absolutely agree; I've argued before for a cascade plan like this:
- Electrify GWR to Bristol (both ways), Swansea, and Oxford
- order new 125 mph EMUs for the South Wales, Bristol and Oxford ICs, at least 260m long
- Cascade the excess 5-car GWR 80x to XC, keep maintenance at current depots (rewrite XC diagrams to accomodate)
- Increase the LNER order from CAF, both in length to at least 260m (longer might be possible on LNER, but I'd have to check), and in number sufficient to replace all bimode 5-car 80x, assuming CAF is willing to do that for a reasonable price.
- Cascade all LNER bimode 5-car 80x to XC, keep maintenance at current depots except London, rewrite XC diagrams to accommodate

This way, LNER and GWR have new, higher capacity to use on their busiest services - expanding capacity without needing more paths. XC get higher capacity, more efficient, and nicer units for their services, and start to take on some of that suppressed demand

There is no need to do any of this.

In the past 10 years, they have scrapped, stored and exported HSTs, IC225s, 379s, 170s, 175s, 180s and soon the 221s / 222s are next to become surplus.

The penny pinchers have been running a one in one out policy for years, yet the one thing they could easily do to bring in more revenue, improve performance, improve satisfaction and reduce safety risks is to add capacity where the trains are crowded.

 

[TheGuy77]

In the past 10 years, they have scrapped, stored and exported HSTs, IC225s, 379s, 170s, 175s, 180s and soon the 221s / 222s are next to become surplus.

The penny pinchers have been running a one in one out policy for years, yet the one thing they could easily do to bring in more revenue, improve performance, improve satisfaction and reduce safety risks is to add capacity where the trains are crowded.

Does that mean that no Arriva franchise has bought new trains?

 

[Energy]

Does that mean that no Arriva franchise has bought new trains?

195s and 331s at Arriva Rail North. Apparently Arriva Trains Wales wanted to get some 170s.

The penny pinchers have been running a one in one out policy for years

Are any of those one-in-one out?

• HSTs - 7/8 cars replaced by 9/10 cars (when not short formed...)
• 170s - 69 vehicles at WMR were replaced by 84 196 vehicles.
• 180s - EMRs were temporary (and barely covered two diagrams), Hull Trains went from 4 180s to 5 802s, Grand Central has more stock now.
• TfWs & Greater Anglias fleet changes make the 175s and 379s more complicated, but the fleet of both TOCs has grown and both classes have found a new life at Great Northern and supposedly GWR respectively.

CrossCountry desperately needs more stock but as a whole, the rail network hasn't stagnated

 

[jayah]

• HSTs - 7/8 cars replaced by 9/10 cars (when not short formed...)

They are short formed because the HSTs and the 143s were retired. A lot of Class 150s had gone to Northern who retired their Class 14x.

• 170s - 69 vehicles at WMR were replaced by 84 196 vehicles.

A marginal increase, which has not seen a commensurate increase in XC or Northern formations balancing losses elsewhere in Northern 14x fleets and latterly storing of 156s.

• 180s - EMRs were temporary (and barely covered two diagrams), Hull Trains went from 4 180s to 5 802s, Grand Central has more stock now.

Pretty much the whole Class 180 fleet is now stored?

• TfWs & Greater Anglias fleet changes make the 175s and 379s more complicated, but the fleet of both TOCs has grown and both classes have found a new life at Great Northern and supposedly GWR respectively.

175s have not worked for a year and TfW 150s are now being scrapped. So what should have been a large increase in capacity somewhere hasn't happened.

I fully expect history to repeat itself with the 175s and we shall see a commensurate paring of the GWR Class 150 fleet to reduce costs when someone decides they need to lose a few million quid from a forthcoming budget.

CrossCountry desperately needs more stock but as a whole, the rail network hasn't stagnated

As above, the stock already exists, it just gets scrapped and stored almost as quickly as new stock is added.

 

[sprinterguy]

Pretty much the whole Class 180 fleet is now stored?

Ten of the fourteen 180s are in regular, daily service with Grand Central. One of the former East Midlands units also saw use with them for a short period during 2023.

 

[Energy]

They are short formed because the HSTs and the 143s were retired. A lot of Class 150s had gone to Northern who retired their Class 14x.

430 HST Mk3s + 70 180 vehicles were replaced by 605 800/802 vehicles. GWR kept some of the HSTs as the 4 car sets.

A marginal increase, which has not seen a commensurate increase in XC or Northern formations balancing losses elsewhere in Northern 14x fleets and latterly storing of 156s.

Well yeah, its a fleet replacement at WMR not XC or Northern? Anyway some of the centre cars ended up at XC and the 170s have been a great improvement at EMR.

Pretty much the whole Class 180 fleet is now stored?

10 at Grand Central, 1 extra saw some temporary use there, 3 in storage.

175s have not worked for a year and TfW 150s are now being scrapped. So what should have been a large increase in capacity somewhere hasn't happened.

TfW did not provide the 175s in a suitable condition to be handed back to the ROSCO, so they have been receiving work. The TfW 150s' bodyshells are in very poor condition.

This is getting off topic. If you want to say that rolling stock has been declining or stagnating, please start another thread. Back to XC - it had the loss of HSTs but the gained 12 voyagers will be far more useful.

As above, the stock already exists, it just gets scrapped and stored almost as quickly as new stock is added.

And XC has added 12 extra voyagers, with careful diagramming apparently that is enough. I agree that XC needs more stock but it doesn't get a blank cheque.

Also, you are never going to get gigantic increases in rolling stock, usually it is just a marginal increase.

 

[Trainbike46]

And XC has added 12 extra voyagers, with careful diagramming apparently that is enough. I agree that XC needs more stock but it doesn't get a blank cheque.

Also, you are never going to get gigantic increases in rolling stock, usually it is just a marginal increase.

I'd disagree that 12 extra voyagers is enough, but it is much easier to use them than the HSTs were.

XC should just have gotten all the ex-avanti voyagers in the short term, though 12 is obviously better than the 7 they were initially going to get

 

[Krokodil]

175s have not worked for a year and TfW 150s are now being scrapped. So what should have been a large increase in capacity somewhere hasn't happened.

Once the introduction of new stock is complete, TfW's fleet will have grown by 50%.

 

[jayah]

And XC has added 12 extra voyagers, with careful diagramming apparently that is enough. I agree that XC needs more stock but it doesn't get a blank cheque.

XC have not added 12 Voyagers.

Before they get close to seeing 12, the existing fleet will be refurbished and it will be 2-3 years before you see the rough equivalent of the same 5 HSTs they just got rid of the other year.

Careful diagramming is another work of fiction. XC uncouple a pair of Voyagers in the early evening when the trains are still very busy and send the second unit back to Central Rivers, again no doubt to save on short term costs.

Also, you are never going to get gigantic increases in rolling stock, usually it is just a marginal increase.

You could and would if the industry stopped this habit of scrapping and storing rolling stock that is perfectly serviceable, just to save short term costs.

 

[jayah]

Once the introduction of new stock is complete, TfW's fleet will have grown by 50%.

The fleet has grown by 50% since when?

How about winding the clock back to before COVID when they had dozens of Class 142/143 which disappeared when passenger numbers slumped in 2020.

 

[jayah]

I'd disagree that 12 extra voyagers is enough, but it is much easier to use them than the HSTs were.

XC should just have gotten all the ex-avanti voyagers in the short term, though 12 is obviously better than the 7 they were initially going to get

12 Voyagers is only a very slight increase on the 5 HSTs they lost the year before. It will still be less than they had before, while their fleet refurbishment is ongoing.

 

[TheGuy77]

Perhaps gaining a few 805s could work? Mind you every Intercity TOC apart from XC, GA and open-access ones have some sort of class 80x in their fleet.

 

[Krokodil]

You could and would if the industry stopped this habit of scrapping and storing rolling stock that is perfectly serviceable, just to save short term costs.

"The industry"? It's not "the industry" who kept awarding franchises to those who offered to completely renew relatively young fleets. Nor was it "the industry" who have enforced cutbacks at a time when other European countries are incentivising public transport.

The fleet has grown by 50% since when?

How about winding the clock back to before COVID when they had dozens of Class 142/143 which disappeared when passenger numbers slumped in 2020.

Arriva finished with 270 passenger vehicles. TfW have more than 350 vehicles in traffic. 756s are due in traffic soon to replace the 150s, the ETCS-fitted 197s are waiting in the wings to replace the 158s, and the 398s will eventually complete the fleet to nearly 500 vehicles (so a 50% increase in seated capacity given that the 398s have quite small vehicles with lots of standing space).

Now, back to XC. I doubt that there will be any 80x, given the prices which Hitachi are quoting. More 22x would be a helpful stop gap, adding the ex-EMR fleet to its books would make a huge difference in the short term. We should then start planning for when the 22x come to the end of their lives in ten years or so.

 

[TheGuy77]

Now, back to XC. I doubt that there will be any 80x, given the prices which Hitachi are quoting. More 22x would be a helpful stop gap, adding the ex-EMR fleet to its books would make a huge difference in the short term. We should then start planning for when the 22x come to the end of their lives in ten years or so.

Ok. What about if XC buy the same type of trains that LNER are getting from CAF? They're Diesel-electric, and CAF supplied the class 195s/331s for then Arriva-owned Northern.