Why is Fenchurch Street numbered "backwards" and other examples

[ctom_s]

Generally, if you're standing at a *Terminus* facing the platforms from the concourse platform 1 is on your left and the highest numbered platform is on your right.

First question is why are the Fenchurch Street platforms numbered in reverse then?

Second question is are there many other examples of terminuses with this reverse numbering people can think of, I can't think of any others in London...

 

[otter11]

Kings cross is also in reverse with platform 0 on the right and higher platforms to the left.

Would also be interested in the logic!

 

[MikeWM]

Kings Cross is also numbered right-left.

Outside London, Norwich and Blackpool North are two examples that spring to mind.

 

[zwk500]

I'm sure we've had other threads on this.

Marylebone and King's Cross are numbered from right to left, in London.
Norwich and Scarborough are other examples around the country.

Various numbering philosophies have been applied by the different rail companies throughout Britain's history, and there are stations where platforms were numbered certain ways for convenience, as well as stations where buildings have moved or configurations changed without touching the tracks changing the 'logic' of the platform numbering.
Some theories include Platform '1' always being the main platform for London trains (many commuter stations), or starting at the Station building and working out (York), numbering clockwise (Cambridge), or numbering left-to-right from the station entrance when transverse (Crewe)

 

[306024]

Clacton and Southend Victoria are two that immediately spring to mind.

And with more thought, as well as Norwich already mentioned, Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth, Chingford, Enfield Town, Hertford East, Kings Lynn, Shoeburyness, and even Barking Riverside.

So most termini in East Anglia are numbered ‘backwards’. (No jokes please )

 

[Bletchleyite]

Euston.

 

[gg1]

Inverness and Euston are also numbered right to left.

EDIT @Bletchleyite beat me to it for Euston

 

[norbitonflyer]

If I recall correctly, of the London termini, Fenchurch Street, Kings Cross, Euston, and Marylebone are right to left

 

[BeijingDave]

Generally, if you're standing at a *Terminus* facing the platforms from the concourse platform 1 is on your left and the highest numbered platform is on your right.

First question is why are the Fenchurch Street platforms numbered in reverse then?

Second question is are there many other examples of terminuses with this reverse numbering people can think of, I can't think of any others in London...

I am not aware that it is actually a convention though.

The only tradition/convention regarding platform numbering I'm aware of is that 1 is generally the UP (towards London platform), so it would make sense that on some lines the higher numbered platforms would be on the down (left) side and the lower numbers on the up (right) and that may simply continue into the terminus.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ilkley is numbered right to left, though it does only have two platforms.

Also Bradford Forster Square with 3 numbered right to left.

 

[zwk500]

I am not aware that it is actually a convention though.

The only tradition/convention regarding platform numbering I'm aware of is that 1 is generally the UP (towards London platform), so it would make sense that on some lines the higher numbered platforms would be on the down (left) side and the lower numbers on the up (right) and that may simply continue into the terminus.

1 being the Up platform is no more a convention than left-to-right numbers are.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Most routes heading towards London have stations with platforms numbered 1 (towards London) and others numbered in sequence after that, so it might be argued that in some cases this pattern carried right through to the terminus, ie platform 1 on the left on the final approach. TBH I don't think there is (was) any set pattern from one pre grouping company to another, local circumstances, extension work over the years etc all having a factor on platforming. There's a very good book (Monograph) by the 'South Western Circle' that is a potted history of Waterloo from 1848, and for those only familiar with Waterloo today, you may be amazed by the platform arrangements (including numbering) over the years, as it was essentially three separate stations during the construction phases pre World War 1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

1 being the Up platform is no more a convention

Our posts overlapped, lol. On the SR, I would argue that '1' being the primary UP (to London) platform has historically been the norm. There are exceptions, mostly obviously Basingstoke to quote one.

 

[zwk500]

Our posts overlapped, lol. On the SR, I would argue that '1' being the primary UP (to London) platform has historically been the norm. There are exceptions, mostly obviously Basingstoke to quote one.

AIUI there was a certain NSE Exec who made a concerted effort to renumber platforms so that 1 was the London-bound platform, so this may not historically be as old as people think.

There likely is a correlation, as my theory is that 1 is traditionally the platform nearest the main station building, and where commuters were the primary anticipated traffic the greater facilities would ordinarily be provided on the platform where commuters would wait in the mornings, as arriving traffic in the evenings would leave the station quite quickly.

However, I haven't yet had the time or inclination to go through the records and work out how stations opened and when/if they've swapped round at points, but Victoria to Brighton has every station between Clapham Junction and East Croydon (exc.) with 1 as the Down Slow Platform, and the WCML has every station between Wembley Central and Bletchley (inc.) with 1 on the Down DC or Down Fast.

 

[Neptune]

Ilkley is numbered right to left, though it does only have two platforms.

Also Bradford Forster Square with 3 numbered right to left.

The two I was thinking of from around here as well as Bradford Interchange.

 

[theblackwatch]

The two I was thinking of from around here as well as Bradford Interchange.

You can add Leeds to that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The two I was thinking of from around here as well as Bradford Interchange.

Weirdly I can never remember which order Interchange is in, in my head I picture it left-to-right.

You can add Leeds to that.

Depends which way you're facing with Leeds, as it isn't entirely a terminus.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

1 is traditionally the platform nearest the main station building,

That is a very interesting point, especially when thinking about routes that some years after initial opening, subsequently had additional passing loops or running lines added. That would be the sort of scenario that might lead to a mixed situation on the same route, until (perhaps?) someone at some stage did take an interest in same and try to standardise things. In my time (SW) it was however as I stated previously, and if you are referring to CG (one of my bosses) I can't comment, as that was not something I would have been involved in directly.

 

[zwk500]

Depends which way you're facing with Leeds, as it isn't entirely a terminus.

Standing at the bays behind the buffers, 0 is on your right, and platforms are numbered north-to-south.

That is a very interesting point, especially when thinking about routes that some years after initial opening, subsequently had additional passing loops or running lines added. That would be the sort of scenario that might lead to a mixed situation on the same route, until (perhaps?) someone at some stage did take an interest in same and try to standardise things. In my time (SW) it was however as I stated previously, and if you are referring to CG (one of my bosses) I can't comment, as that was not something I would have been involved in directly.

I can't comment on when or if changes were implemented, as it was all before my time. I'm inclined to think that companies had various preferences but not strict policies.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

First question is why are the Fenchurch Street platforms numbered in reverse then?

Going back to the original question, re Fenchurch Street, reading the Middleton Press book, 'Fenchurch Street to Barking' it seems the station was enlarged in 1853 with the addition of a second booking office (and additional platforms - it started with only one island in 1841), with platform workings being segregated to a degree depending on service destinations, ie Blackwall, or GER suburban trains. I suspect, as I thought, that subsequent numbering in such cases, is largely a simple case of historical events in the station's life - and if it ain't broke, don't fix it, sort of thing

 

[swt_passenger]

I am not aware that it is actually a convention though.

The only tradition/convention regarding platform numbering I'm aware of is that 1 is generally the UP (towards London platform), so it would make sense that on some lines the higher numbered platforms would be on the down (left) side and the lower numbers on the up (right) and that may simply continue into the terminus.

We had a thread a few weeks ago that covered this, and I think (as in post #13) it’s just as likely that when stations were first built platform 1 was the platform nearest to the original main entrance.

 

[150219]

As already mentioned above, there is a loose convention - but I'm not aware of anything formally written in this respect.

Specifically for the Chiltern line:-
The stations that are ex-Great Central on the route between Aylesbury and Marylebone are Platform 1 for the up platform.
The stations that are LU between Amersham and Harrow are Platform 1 for the down platform.
The stations that are ex-Great Western are Platform 1 for the down platform.

Those that are different to that convention have been changed. This is notably the case at Aylesbury and Princes Risborough, where the stations were rationalised. What is now Platform 1 at Aylesbury and at Princes Risborough used to be Platform 4.

 

[ctom_s]

seems like there are far more exceptions than I thought...is it a free-for-all in mainland Europe as well? I think Gare du Nord and Roma Termini are numbered left to right but I never thought to keep track (lol) of it

 

[zwk500]

seems like there are far more exceptions than I thought...is it a free-for-all in mainland Europe as well? I think Gare du Nord and Roma Termini are numbered left to right but I never thought to keep track (lol) of it

Mainland Europe also has the various regional/international differences, with systems like numbering Islands etc.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Most routes heading towards London have stations with platforms numbered 1 (towards London) and others numbered in sequence after that, so it might be argued that in some cases this pattern carried right through to the terminus, ie platform 1 on the left on the final approach. TBH I don't think there is (was) any set pattern from one pre grouping company to another, local circumstances, extension work over the years etc all having a factor on platforming. There's a very good book (Monograph) by the 'South Western Circle' that is a potted history of Waterloo from 1848, and for those only familiar with Waterloo today, you may be amazed by the platform arrangements (including numbering) over the years, as it was essentially three separate stations during the construction phases pre World War 1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==


Our posts overlapped, lol. On the SR, I would argue that '1' being the primary UP (to London) platform has historically been the norm. There are exceptions, mostly obviously Basingstoke to quote one.

A good example on the ECML where this pattern is broken is St Neots (the London-bound platform is numbered 4 while the northbound is 1)

 

[6Gman]

I'm sure we've had other threads on this.

Marylebone and King's Cross are numbered from right to left, in London.
Norwich and Scarborough are other examples around the country.

Various numbering philosophies have been applied by the different rail companies throughout Britain's history, and there are stations where platforms were numbered certain ways for convenience, as well as stations where buildings have moved or configurations changed without touching the tracks changing the 'logic' of the platform numbering.
Some theories include Platform '1' always being the main platform for London trains (many commuter stations), or starting at the Station building and working out (York), numbering clockwise (Cambridge), or numbering left-to-right from the station entrance when transverse (Crewe)

Crewe was of course right-to-left until the works in the mid-1980s.

 

[gg1]

A good example on the ECML where this pattern is broken is St Neots (the London-bound platform is numbered 4 while the northbound is 1)

That does fit with the theory mentioned earlier that platform 1 is the closest to the main station building though.

On reading this thread I'm interested in the different conventions the early railway companies adopted (or indeed if there were some that never had a consistent convention even at the time the lines were built). Of course establishing this now is complicated by there no doubt being many stations where the platform numbering has changed at some point in the 100+ years since they were built.

 

[zwk500]

That does fit with the theory mentioned earlier that platform 1 is the closest to the main station building though.

On reading this thread I'm interested in the different conventions the early railway companies adopted (or indeed if there were some that never had a consistent convention even at the time the lines were built). Of course establishing this now is complicated by there no doubt being many stations where the platform numbering has changed at some point in the 100+ years since they were built.

Yes you would need access to the plans of each/a majority of stations when they first opened, as well as potentially the minutes of various board/committee meetings as various changes took place and of course you'd be researching from the original 140+ companies through all the acquisitions and mergers through to today's policies which lead to platform 0s!

 

[Nippy]

I am not aware that it is actually a convention though.

The only tradition/convention regarding platform numbering I'm aware of is that 1 is generally the UP (towards London platform), so it would make sense that on some lines the higher numbered platforms would be on the down (left) side and the lower numbers on the up (right) and that may simply continue into the terminus.

The Western starts with low platform numbers on the down (main) side on the way out of London to Reading.

 

[Railsigns]

Signalling/operating notices are the most convenient and reliable source of information for researching platform number changes. In most instances, platform numbers will have been changed in conjunction with an alteration to the signalling, all of which will be described in detail. Even if no signalling alterations took place, any changes to platform numbers should still be advised in the notices. Here's an example describing alterations to the platform numbering at Edinburgh Waverley on 4th May 1936:

 

[Kreissignal]

seems like there are far more exceptions than I thought...is it a free-for-all in mainland Europe as well? I think Gare du Nord and Roma Termini are numbered left to right but I never thought to keep track (lol) of it

For the German termini that I’m familiar with, Munich Hbf, Stuttgart, Leipzig, Frankfurt (Main), Hamburg-Altona and Westerland are all lowest-number-on-the-left-when-looking-away-from-the-concourse, but Oberstdorf & Lindau are the other way round. On my local line (Berlin-Dessau), the "up" tracks (towards Berlin) are generally the higher-numbered ones, even though that’s mostly also the side where the station building is.