Why is the UK completely incapable of treating public transport as a whole?

[RT4038]

There is that. But even with the railway, its costs would be reduced by a move to bring it into a single fare system (might as well be that of Vectis) and by coordinating it with the buses rather than them running in parallel to it leaching revenue. Oh, and ENCTS passes being valid on it if they aren't already.

But Rail does not have some God-given right to exist, and it is perhaps these kinds of issues that policy makers are afraid of uncorking the genie that causes the whole integration question to be kept well closed. I suspect that those countries (Germany certainly) with high levels of integration have never had widespread competition from the 1920s, which has unleashed forces that cannot be simply wished away.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

It is ridiculous to expect every single pound of your tax money to result in a direct return to you personally; rather it should be spent on improving society as a whole.

Never suggested anything of the kind your analogy is completely irrelevant.

Think of a street running through a neighbourhood where a resident one side of the street has to walk across to a shop the other side. Now imagine the street is speeded up so motorists save time but the local resident must now detour through an underpass to visit the same shop. The resident's time is - in a sense - taken from them and given to the motorist. And that in a nutshell is time theft.

Thank you for explaining that. When I as a motorist stop at a pedestrian crossing presumably my time is stolen from me then? So we could call it quits. Good luck with selling your theory

 

[MarkyT]

That latter technique sounds like what Swindon are (or at least were) planning. The current pedestrian route is a little grim but the plan is to improve the walking route, which goes from the railway station to the town centre via the bus station (served mainly by Stagecoach routes heading out of town) and Fleming Way (there are many on-street stops here served by town buses).

I worked in Swindon for a few years, commuting in from Reading by rail. I often used to walk that route from the station into town. To me, it always seemed very safe and pleasant, at least during daylight. My perception of bus/rail interchange in the town was that it was very good physically, although I very rarely had any cause to use it so can't comment knowledgeably on timetable integration.

 

[BayPaul]

Perhaps you could come up with some better system?

Simply have a separate ticket price from every bus stop?
Now there is no need for every ticket price to be contained in a big book, there is really no reason why there can't be millions of different ticket prices, each of which is automatically calculated (e.g. rail ticket price + 90% of bus ticket price), and displayed to passengers on the ticket machine or on line.

 

[RT4038]

I think that the biggest issues are ticketing and journey information. It is almost certainly impossible to properly coordinate timetables between bus and rail - for every bus departure you move so it matches a rail arrival, it will break a connection elsewhere, or make for an unattractive timing at another major point.
On the other hand, there are minimal disadvantages to having proper through-ticketing arrangements, that work in both directions, to allow a single ticket for a journey. In particular, something that means that if your bus to the station is delayed and you miss the train, you can take the next one without any penalty (possibly not with delay-repay compensation), and also that the Ts & Cs are similar. I think this would still be very valuable even if there was no discount on buying the two tickets separately.
Equally, having a single national journey planner database that can allow any public transport journey to be planned as easily as a simple rail journey would make it very much easier to integrate everything together.

I am sure that the through ticketing you envisage will be offered in the future when the digital bus service information becomes live and the necessary commercials can be agreed for the actual sale of tickets (not sure about delays though!)

 

[GoneSouth]

As Plusbus is a one day area wide travel at will ticket, the only way that it will never be more expensive than every train plus paying the driver separately is if the price is set to the cheapest bus ticket available from the railway station. From the financial point of view of the bus operator, that would be bonkers!
Perhaps you could come up with some better system?

Ah that wasn’t really how it was sold to me, perhaps a single use bus ticket rather than a whole day area ticket could be an option. I agree if you’re going somewhere for a day out and use the bus several times this seems pretty convenient, but I only needed a single journey when I used it, just thought it would be more convenient than scrambling around for cash after a long train journey (no contactless payments back Then). It all makes sense now!

 

[RT4038]

Simply have a separate ticket price from every bus stop?
Now there is no need for every ticket price to be contained in a big book, there is really no reason why there can't be millions of different ticket prices, each of which is automatically calculated (e.g. rail ticket price + 90% of bus ticket price), and displayed to passengers on the ticket machine or on line.

I am sure that this will come with the full digital bus service information. However, at present it is not possible.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I worked in Swindon for a few years, commuting in from Reading by rail. I often used to walk that route from the station into town. To me, it always seemed very safe and pleasant, at least during daylight. My perception of bus/rail interchange in the town was that it was very good physically, although I very rarely had any cause to use it so can't comment knowledgeably on timetable integration.

I suppose the two main issues are the office block you have to walk under (which is a little confusing if you're not used to it) and the underpass (which often feels a little unsafe). Though neither of those apply to transfers between the bus station and railway station.

With regards timetable integration, Swindon is an example of a town where it doesn't really make sense. Both the bus service and train service is very complex, with large numbers of destinations served. As an example, I often travel from Oxford by bus and then to South Wales or Gloucester/Stroud by train, but these are just two flows out of thousands of possibilites - you could never have timetable integration with them all.

 

[py_megapixel]

Never suggested anything of the kind your analogy is completely irrelevant

You suggested that it is something wrong with one person's taxes subsidising someone else's activites:

those who choose to ride around all day because they happen to like trains, for example, would be financed by most who might only use transport rarely. Your ideal world and the real world, I am afraid to say, will never meet.

I was trying to prove that similar things already happen in other cases, such as the NHS paying for everyone's healthcare, regardless of how likely they are to become ill.

Sorry if I was unclear.

 

[mmh]

Indeed. This discussion partly came out of discussion of the Penrith-Keswick X4/X5, which actually does stop right outside the station (and Penrith is another place where the railway station would not be a good place to put the bus station as it's a bit out of town) but isn't in the railway timetabling or ticketing system - the simple act of adding it to both would be a big improvement.

I think people concentrating on interchange locations and neglecting ticketing is an artefact of people's experience of our mostly very poor efforts at integration. It's all they see happen - local authority power is mostly restricted to where bus stops are sited, so the authorities spend money on bus stops. The country's littered with white elephant "interchanges" planned and opened with grandiose claims of the benefits they'll bring.

In this area, the local authority spent decades proposing an "interchange" at Llandudno station, of sometimes elaborate size. When investment from Network Rail and the EU regional development fund finally arrived to renovate the dilapidated station, what happened other than a reasonable refurbishment was a single bus stop and a car park. The car park is oversized, Llandudno is not a drive to the station and commute town (much of the town is in easy walking distance of the station, and Llandudno Junction has long been a railhead for it more convenient for the outlying areas.) The bus stop serves a single infrequent route in one direction, which then terminates a few hundred yards away. Amusingly the route that uses it is one that has come from Llanrwst largely following a railway line. Perhaps Llew Jones Buses are so used to running rail replacement buses that going to the station is second nature to them! The main street and all other buses are only one block away. Unsurprisingly, this bus stop doesn't get passengers. I mean ever - none.

Coincidentally, today I've been looking up fares and times for a journey I may have to frequently do in the near future, to Ysbyty Gwynedd hospital in Bangor. Instinctively you'd think train + bus would be logical. I can walk (15 mins) or catch a bus to Llandudno Junction, catch a train to Bangor where there are buses to the hospital from the station. It could also be done by bus all the way with a same stop change in Bangor centre.

A weekly train season is £28.50, or £30.10 from Llandudno. I decide extending it from Llandudno for £1.60 is good value. So far so good. At the Bangor end though, things are more complicated. It's a half hour walk and a fairly steep hill, so if I'm feeling tired or it's wet, I'd use the bus. A "Bangor City Zone" Arriva bus pass is £14. Half my rail fare again for the short bit! An all areas Arriva pass is £19, which gives me the buses at home too, so I'd probably get that.

Then I remember that "PlusBus" exists! Surely that's what I want, I want to use local buses in one or two towns at the ends of a longer rail journey. I don't know if PlusBus is a available on seasons, and turns out it is! At £15 for Bangor, and another £15 for Llandudno. Completely worthless - nobody would buy either end, let alone both.

So, my real choice is £49 for rail+bus, or £19 for bus. And people wonder why so many drive routes like that which, at first glance, have perfectly reasonable public transport.

 

[mmh]

Not sure what this has to do with the OP's question?

It hides that integrated ticketing exists. We have similar here in North Wales, where most people think only per-operator passes exist. There is a multi-operator pass, but it's not advertised and it's far more expensive so very few know about it or buy it.

 

[37201xoIM]

I've heard WYCA want tram trains on the main transpennine route for example - bonkers.

If you would care to cite some evidence, then I look forward to learning something!

 

[fgwrich]

I'm surprised not to see any mention of it yet, particularly as it is still part of the UK - Northern Ireland. Translink seems to have the right idea, with bus stations built next to railway stations, buses meeting rail services at the right time and cross ticketing across it's network too. IIRC Most of the recent station re-builds in Northern Ireland have seen the local bus stations moved to the rail station. And in some degree, in Scotland too (I.e Galashiels on the Borders Railway).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Now that am retired and old enough to have a bus pass (for England) it has been quite an eye-opener to discover how good many bus services are. In particular they often take you to where you actually want to go, such as town and city centres, hospitals, major retail centres and so forth whereas railway stations are often poorly situated. There are, of course, far fewer of them than bus stops quite apart from historical and geographical factors that mean that they are often away from modern facilities.

I find Traveline very helpful for planning multi-modal journeys.

For all the travellers' tales about gridlock and general mayhem on the roads I have not been stranded on (or when attempting) a bus journey in recent years. Buses seem to be very good at diverting around many road works and general local difficulties. On the other hand quite a few rail journeys have had to be aborted or left me stranded for hours or needing to escape by bus in the same time period.

To my eyes the biggest 'killer' in public transport integration is physical separation of railway stations and the relevant bus stops/station. As soon as it is pouring with rain or dark or you have luggage or are trying to follow directions on a mobile phone in an unfamiliar place with your hands full - THAT is the point at which you think that going by car (with boot, sat nav, scope to take a companion at minimal additional cost, etc.) would have been so much easier.

 

[mmh]

As Plusbus is a one day area wide travel at will ticket, the only way that it will never be more expensive than every train plus paying the driver separately is if the price is set to the cheapest bus ticket available from the railway station. From the financial point of view of the bus operator, that would be bonkers!
Perhaps you could come up with some better system?

As I only discovered today, Plusbus is available on season tickets, so that's not true. As for a better system, the zonal or fare capping systems used in multiple places?

 

[mmh]

There is that. But even with the railway, its costs would be reduced by a move to bring it into a single fare system (might as well be that of Vectis) and by coordinating it with the buses rather than them running in parallel to it leaching revenue. Oh, and ENCTS passes being valid on it if they aren't already.

That's something which isn't questioned enough. The railway's fare system must cost a massive amount!

 

[mmh]

There is no such thing as public money, just taxpayer money. So in your ideal world those who choose to ride around all day because they happen to like trains, for example, would be financed by most who might only use transport rarely. Your ideal world and the real world, I am afraid to say, will never meet.

In the real world, the people who ride around all day are insignificant, because there are so few people with the inclination to or who can afford to. Affordability includes more than the ticket price.

There seems to be a desire amongst some to paint transport integration as a left vs. right or capitalist vs. socialist choice to fit their standpoint as required. I'm not sure why. Nobody's given any evidence of significant difference under a national government of any colour. Meanwhile, that last bastion of communism Luxembourg has free public transport.

 

[geoffk]

British society is more egalitarian than Continental European society,

Surely you mean "less egalitarian"?

 

[MarkyT]

I suppose the two main issues are the office block you have to walk under (which is a little confusing if you're not used to it) and the underpass (which often feels a little unsafe). Though neither of those apply to transfers between the bus station and railway station.

With regards timetable integration, Swindon is an example of a town where it doesn't really make sense. Both the bus service and train service is very complex, with large numbers of destinations served. As an example, I often travel from Oxford by bus and then to South Wales or Gloucester/Stroud by train, but these are just two flows out of thousands of possibilites - you could never have timetable integration with them all.

And I guess frequency is reasonable on your journey, so even a 'just missed' adds at worst 20 to 30 mins to a circa 2 to 3 hour total journey, which still seems reasonable and competitive, and being near a town centre the interchange location can allow a wide range of refreshment opportunities to be sampled during the wait.

 

[A0wen]

In the real world, the people who ride around all day are insignificant, because there are so few people with the inclination to or who can afford to. Affordability includes more than the ticket price.

There seems to be a desire amongst some to paint transport integration as a left vs. right or capitalist vs. socialist choice to fit their standpoint as required. I'm not sure why. Nobody's given any evidence of significant difference under a national government of any colour. Meanwhile, that last bastion of communism Luxembourg has free public transport.

Yes - but Luxembourg's not exactly a significant place is it ? 600,000 people in an area of 2500 sq kms - it's basically akin to giving 75% of the population of Derbyshire free travel within Derbyshire.

 

[geoffk]

Some history. Train services began to face strong competition as motor vehicles became available after World War I and, as a result, the railway companies bought into the bus industry in the period 1928-30. They wanted a financial return from their new acquisitions. Although many benefits were claimed for the closer working between railways and buses, each side generally pursued its own interests. A factor which may have inhibited closer integration was the discrepancy between bus and railway rates of pay and the relations between the various unions which represented their workers. Examples of co-operation were bus services diverted or extended to serve railway stations and timetable books which included a summary of train times. There were also inter-available tickets and mutual assistance in times of breakdown. Otherwise, the railways exerted little influence on bus service development. Indeed, the new legislation led to the first significant round of railway closures between 1929 and 1933.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Surely you mean "less egalitarian"?

Yes, I do.

 

[mmh]

Yes - but Luxembourg's not exactly a significant place is it ? 600,000 people in an area of 2500 sq kms - it's basically akin to giving 75% of the population of Derbyshire free travel within Derbyshire.

A meaningless comparison. A country can't give free transport to more people than are in it. If only places with lots of people count, as I mentioned before there are the US cities with flat fares across rail and bus.

 

[WesternS]

I'm surprised not to see any mention of it yet, particularly as it is still part of the UK - Northern Ireland. Translink seems to have the right idea, with bus stations built next to railway stations, buses meeting rail services at the right time and cross ticketing across it's network too. IIRC Most of the recent station re-builds in Northern Ireland have seen the local bus stations moved to the rail station. And in some degree, in Scotland too (I.e Galashiels on the Borders Railway).

Well, post #29 did (even though he says so himself...).

I would surmise that the underlying facilitator for most of the bus stations being moved to the rail stations (e.g. Bangor) is that (a) Translink own both bus and rail operations and (b) NI developers don't seem to have been able to generate large office blocks on ex-goods yards/sidings around rail stations (unlike a lot of England) thus consigning the buses to stops outside (e.g. Llandudno or Reading).

In NI it is good to see the 'new' Gt Victoria St development now underway with Graham as the contractor continues with bus and train on the same site albeit a little further away from Belfast city centre. IMHO the biggest current missed opportunity is not putting a station at the Ballymartin P&R site on the Belfast/Derry line - and turning that into both a bus P&R and a train P&R site... how many of those would there be in the UK ? I appreciate that this may well need doubling of track from Monkstown to Templepatrick as well as the station but if NI really is to deal with its car use, this sort of physical integration, along with 'virtual' [tickets and timetables] integration needs to happen as well a more frequent service.

The final barrier I believe to further integration is the politicians belief/obsession that a new dual carriageway = jobs. Breaking this is vital. Most of my experience is that all this does is suck jobs out by allowing further centralisation of distribution etc in super warehouses closer to the cities (for a UK example in Bridgewater along the M5 rather than in St Austell/Plymouth or similar). The same with car commuting - it just allows longer length journeys in the same time frame, as one will see as the A6 dualling heads towards Derry. That's why the RoI Programme for Govt treating all transport modes under the one budget is an interesting development.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm surprised not to see any mention of it yet, particularly as it is still part of the UK - Northern Ireland. Translink seems to have the right idea, with bus stations built next to railway stations, buses meeting rail services at the right time and cross ticketing across it's network too. IIRC Most of the recent station re-builds in Northern Ireland have seen the local bus stations moved to the rail station. And in some degree, in Scotland too (I.e Galashiels on the Borders Railway).

I've never been to NI, but I will admit I did hope that TfW would take a similar line, at least with rail and Trawscymru. Yet they considered that option when designing it (Traws) and actively rejected it! There's a thread on here about it somewhere.

 

[43055]

I think that the biggest issues are ticketing and journey information. It is almost certainly impossible to properly coordinate timetables between bus and rail - for every bus departure you move so it matches a rail arrival, it will break a connection elsewhere, or make for an unattractive timing at another major point.
On the other hand, there are minimal disadvantages to having proper through-ticketing arrangements, that work in both directions, to allow a single ticket for a journey. In particular, something that means that if your bus to the station is delayed and you miss the train, you can take the next one without any penalty (possibly not with delay-repay compensation), and also that the Ts & Cs are similar. I think this would still be very valuable even if there was no discount on buying the two tickets separately.
Equally, having a single national journey planner database that can allow any public transport journey to be planned as easily as a simple rail journey would make it very much easier to integrate everything together.

Its interesting that there is often talk of closing bus services that run in parrallel with rail services on threads like this. In many cases, the opposite would probably be more sensible, provided that the bus service was protected so that it could not be cancelled or severely cut in the future. Places like the Isle of Wight, Far North Line, Conwy, Looe etc could all have better journey times, better access to town centres and far cheaper operations if run as a bus rather than a train. The inevitable shouts down that this comment will get is probably a good answer to the question the OP first posted - there are lots of rail enthusiasts and bus enthusiasts, but perhaps less public transport enthusiasts!

Even better with the Conwy Valley service is that the train and bus (X19) is almost coordinated and is shown together in the Conwy public transport book.

 

[mmh]

I've never been to NI, but I will admit I did hope that TfW would take a similar line, at least with rail and Trawscymru. Yet they considered that option when designing it (Traws) and actively rejected it! There's a thread on here about it somewhere.

Which is complete madness when you consider that some Trawscymru routes could and should be perfect extensions of the rail network, e.g. Bangor - Caernarfon - Harlech. I suppose it's easier to generate hot air about north / south connections rather than do anything about them.

 

[HSTEd]

In order to make coordination work at all you would need national bus regulation, probably a single unified bus numbering scheme and timetable, and any number of things that are an anathema to the political class.

 

[mmh]

In order to make coordination work at all you would need national bus regulation, probably a single unified bus numbering scheme and timetable, and any number of things that are an anathema to the political class.

I don't see why. Why would the 19 bus in Llandudno need a different number to the 19 in London? A single numbering system would be unwieldy, massively user unfriendly and feels like introducing an unnecessary complication for the sake of it. The railway works perfectly fine using non unique numbers!

 

[HSTEd]

I don't see why. Why would the 19 bus in Llandudno need a different number to the 19 in London? A single numbering system would be unwieldy, massively user unfriendly and feels like introducing an unnecessary complication for the sake of it.

Given the small number of buses in the UK, you would probably only need a regional letter and three digits.
And if you are doing local journeys the buses could just have the regional letter painted on the destination display!


And because people inevitably get confused, we need a single unified public transport planner, with journey commencement points including every bus stop, railway station and other things.
At one point my small home town had three route 1s.

Greater Manchester has three!

The railway works perfectly fine using non unique numbers!

Does it?
What non unique passenger facing numbers for trains are there?
I'm not realy aware of any?