I must be mistaken - I've rarely used anything other than Travelcards then not paying 2001-2015, then contactless. It could certainly be a lot simpler.
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Why is there no mention that Elizabeth Line to Heathrow commands a premium?
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Even with a Zonal system, how many people would ‘expect’ it? I’m willing to wager the number of people who would known the zonal prices, if such a system existed today, would be insignificant compared to the number that would still look up point to point fares.
Of course people might know the price of journeys they do often, but that isn’t much different to the situation today.
jon81uk
Member
I think the only way it would easily get simpler is if TfL took over more of the operations, so no Heathrow owned track, no Southern, Southeastern, Thameslink etc. All trains run by TfL and all on the same fare structure.
Then it would just be a handful of exceptions like the Heathrow is always peak fares rule on Piccadilly line.
As far as I know the ‘early adopter’ PAYG National Rail TOCs charged the same zonal fares as TfL.
The issue came when the remaining (and majority of) TOCs joined the PAYG scheme because they historically charged higher fares. What resulted is the ‘mixed mode’ tax where using a combination of TfL and NR modes is charged at a higher level compared to an all TfL or all NR fare within the same zones.
Ideally all the fares would be harmonised but reducing the NR fares to the TfL fare would result in revenue loss, so it isn’t going to happen.
Fares could be harmonised at the higher rate and this is probably what DfT would like to do over time…
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The issue came when the remaining (and majority of) TOCs joined the PAYG scheme because they historically charged higher fares. What resulted is the ‘mixed mode’ tax where using a combination of TfL and NR modes is charged at a higher level compared to an all TfL or all NR fare within the same zones.
Ideally all the fares would be harmonised but reducing the NR fares to the TfL fare would result in revenue loss, so it isn’t going to happen.
Fares could be harmonised at the higher rate and this is probably what DfT would like to do over time…
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The TfL operators former Greater Anglia services are charged at a higher rate, I believe.
redreni
Established Member
The oyster PAYG zonal fares were published as a table:
National archives government web archive - tfl.gov.uk September 2011
So no need to look up individual journeys, just refer to the map and fare table. That's why I said the fare table could and should have been displayed at stations so that people could have easily checked the fare before tapping in, if they wished. I guess they didn't trust staff to take the signs down promptly when the fares changed, though...
TfL operated former Greater Anglia services are charged at a higher rate, I believe.
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A fair point but as mentioned earlier would allowing a fare look up on ticket machines not entirely solve this issue very simply?
redreni
Established Member
Showing the single fares and caps side by side makes it a lot easier, especially if you're planning a return trip.
At the moment you have to look up the single fare, then run a new query for the return trip (as the fare and peak restrictions won't necessarily be the same - direction-sensitive peak restrictions are further complexity introduced in 2011) and then you have to look up the daily cap separately, as it's sometimes less than the sum of the two singles.
Unless you use Mike's excellent fare finder, of course, but I believe PAYG needs be judged according to the information readily available from the official sources.
Very often the operator of the train(s) you intend to use (which is a perfectly reasonable place for passengers to expect to find fares information) doesn't tell you what the Oyster or Contactless PAYG fare is. The best you can hope for is that their website will direct you to the TfL fares page, which is okay but hardly seamless. If the fares were the same everywhere within the zones, every TOC website could just have a copy of the fare chart on it, which could be used either in combination with their map of their network showing their stations within the London zones, or with the more comprehensive rail and tube services map.
jon81uk
Member
And isn’t that just because they both operate the same routes and Greater Anglia and DfT didn’t want lower revenue to Cheshunt.
But as you said I can’t see harmonised fares happening without significant increases and I can’t see the mayor wanting the Underground fares to increase, so all you might get is Overground and National Rail at the same rate.
I'm sure there was more to it than just Cheshunt, but the bottom line is there would've been a revenue shortfall if the fares had been lowered on the lines TfL took over.
Indeed! If fares are harmonised the cheaper fares will increase.
They, might, but at the moment the gap has been growing with TfL limiting fare increases.
Those webpages bring back fond memories. However, the fares quoted were just for TfL set fares. When the whole of National Rail joined the system in January 2010 (not 2011 as you keep saying) there were three different scales. One for TfL, one for late adopting NR and a third (mixed) one for late adopting NR including LU/DLR. In those early days some NR fares were cheaper than their TfL equivalents (zone 1-3 rings a bell, but don't quote me). The 2011 fares remained at 2010 levels, then from 2012 everything started creeping up. NR fares soon became more expensive across the board, and this was hastened from 2016 when TfL fares were frozen.
TfL had to keep the fare structure in tact on the Liverpool Street lines to avoid split opportunities from further afield. Over time the fares have slowly merged with the TfL structure, resulting in the end of the Liverpool Street NR fares in 2022. As far as I'm aware the peak fares are now fully aligned in zones 1-6 and off-peak fares are only more expensive for 3-5 zones excluding zone 1. There are still differences in zone 7-9, particularly for Brentwood.
Absolutely; there is no prospect of the higher priced fares reducing in cost.
There are very few instances where the higher priced fare would possibly reduce (I can think of one high profile example, but I don't want to drag this thread off topic!); in nearly all cases it will be the cheaper fares that rise to the level of the higher fares. If harmonisation has any decreases, then you can be pretty sure that any decreases would be modest in nature and dwarfed by the increases.
The only way to change any of this is to change things that are beyond the fares themselves, and beyond the scope of this forum section (i.e. increase capacity, subsidy etc and a complete change in policy) but that's one for Speculative Discussion!
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