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Why is there now an obsession with re-nationalisation?

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B&I

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You can be as anti car as you like but it is rather more than "some people" who own and use one as people vote with their feet and clearly prefer to drive. As for being environmentally disastrous the move to electric cars will reduce that argument, and as for "expensive", well I am afraid that even with my senior railcard it is often cheaper to drive especially with 2 or more people travelling. Yes rail has a great future too, but living in a world where millions of people will give up their cars is not going to happen.


Oh well, people like using their cars, argument over. Let's determine public policy on the basis of what people like doing. I like walking round without breathing in the fumes motorists belch out, so that means I should be allowed to smash their cars up.

More seriously, electric cars are a welcome step but are unlikely to become universal for decades. There are issues about the energy used in their construction, and how the minerals vital for their batteries are sourced. They are still likely to consume more energy for the number of passenger miles than public transport vehicles, and we are a long way from pollution-free electricity production.

A lot of people don't use cars because they like them, but because it is impossible or impractical to make the journeys they need to make using public transport, thanks to woeful car-based planning policies and the resultant difficulty in providing effective public transport. If we started to reconstruct the country around public transport, it would become the natural choice for far more people
 
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Gareth Marston

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Better public transport would be easier to provide if development wasn't being spread over ever-wider areas at lower density. But that's the kind of development you're arguing in favour of, for reasons that escape me

and this kind of development essentially forces people into car use to access jobs, services and retail so all this nonsense about people choosing private vehicles as some sort of rational choice is a myth.
 

B&I

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and this kind of development essentially forces people into car use to access jobs, services and retail so all this nonsense about people choosing private vehicles as some sort of rational choice is a myth.


You and I know that, but some people feel compelled to dress up their personal preferences as rational choices that everyone else makes as well
 

delt1c

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Think about it at next election when you place your X in the box, do you want a rail system for the country or the shareholders?
 

underbank

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Think about it at next election when you place your X in the box, do you want a rail system for the country or the shareholders?

Depends if the main political parties make such commitments. Don't forget we had 3 terms of Labour govt who didn't renationalise.
 

coppercapped

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Think about it at next election when you place your X in the box, do you want a rail system for the country or the shareholders?
You imply that the two cases are mutually exclusive.

Would you care to explain your reasoning?
 

Railman

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Labour did want to renationalise BUT it meant upfront cost, and was not as popular as spending on the NHS and Education (even if some PPP finance deals have not been true value for money). The suedo private railway has recieved monstrous amounts of public money and subsidy for years and what has really changed, is the fact that the goverment was forced to put Network Rails borrowing on the goverment spending sheet. Now suddenly the £50 Billion of "borrowing" that would never be repaid is out in the open, (thats on top of its £4-£5 billion a year just to run day to day) and remember Railtrack went bust and had its debts written off before that. Suddenly reallity has been forced out in the open.
The Railway you get is the one you pay for, and BR gave far more for a small fraction of what it costs today.
Interesting progamme on one of the BBCs channels tonight, the Transport select committee questioning Grayling on the East Coast Franchise fiasco. "We need to integrate track and train", "The LNER francise will not be re let in the style of the Franchises of the past". "Network Rail will speed up its devolution into Routes", "new CEO starts in 3 weeks and will put a rocket under the process". Just some of the quotes.
If thats not recreating the old Eastern , London Midland regions etc then its as close as it gets.
And the absolute classic quote "ideally we would not be starting from where we are now".
 

AndrewE

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You imply that the two cases are mutually exclusive.
Would you care to explain your reasoning?
Can you not imagine?
The current "privatised" provision pretends that the market is giving us what the country needs - but with a massive behind-the-scenes bureaucracy with many layers of government (DfT) and other (supposedly TOC-funded) quangos and regulators "organising" and supposedly controlling it, but mostly failing miserably as the financiers run rings round the regulators!
It's the same with water, power, telecoms and all the rest of our infrastructure. In fact our fares and payments to the other utilities disappear into a byzantine maze of financial constructions so that any profits vanish into "interest payments" to shell companies in tax havens, ensuring that the only benefit to the UK exchequer is the tax and NI paid by the staff.
Compare that with a public utility, with money raised or funded by tax or (for investment) by government bonds, all its staff on transparent pay rates and no fiddles such as pretend pension schemes, no payments to any of the regulators but just politicians accountable for the effectiveness of the provision...
(or you explain why these two models are not mutually exclusive...)
 

The Ham

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Can you not imagine?
The current "privatised" provision pretends that the market is giving us what the country needs - but with a massive behind-the-scenes bureaucracy with many layers of government (DfT) and other (supposedly TOC-funded) quangos and regulators "organising" and supposedly controlling it, but mostly failing miserably as the financiers run rings round the regulators!
It's the same with water, power, telecoms and all the rest of our infrastructure. In fact our fares and payments to the other utilities disappear into a byzantine maze of financial constructions so that any profits vanish into "interest payments" to shell companies in tax havens, ensuring that the only benefit to the UK exchequer is the tax and NI paid by the staff.
Compare that with a public utility, with money raised or funded by tax or (for investment) by government bonds, all its staff on transparent pay rates and no fiddles such as pretend pension schemes, no payments to any of the regulators but just politicians accountable for the effectiveness of the provision...
(or you explain why these two models are not mutually exclusive...)

Conversely, unless everything is government owned, private companies who do work for government at any level charge a small fortune.

There's many reasons for this, one is because payments are often slow in coming as the invoice meanders it's way through the payment system. Another is because all the different parts of government are trying to protect their budget and so different parts of government want others to provide them with benefits rather than working together for the best for the people they should be serving.

Neither model is going to bring the savings desired by many, no matter how many times you say it.

How costly do you think it would be to renationalise the whole rail industry?

The biggest savings are likely to be found in bringing more work in house at NR (given that their budget is circa £3 billion). A 1% efficiency saving there would likely be quite significant. Meaning that you'd probably get more savings from the nationalised element of the railways than from the privatised elements by nationalising then.

However there would be ways that, in small steps, that changes could be made to the current system to make it better and result in a better financial result than throwing the baby out with the bath water for some idiotically reasoning, which may or may not come to pass.

It could be that those steps result in a railway that is more nationalised, it may not. Either way, change is required but wholesale change because the current system isn't working probably would cause more harm than good.
 

The Ham

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You can be as anti car as you like but it is rather more than "some people" who own and use one as people vote with their feet and clearly prefer to drive. As for being environmentally disastrous the move to electric cars will reduce that argument, and as for "expensive", well I am afraid that even with my senior railcard it is often cheaper to drive especially with 2 or more people travelling. Yes rail has a great future too, but living in a world where millions of people will give up their cars is not going to happen.

I would suggest that millions could give up their own private cars (in that people are starting to do so).

The reason being is that cars are fairly expensive to own and once people look at the whole life costs (not just the fuel) of their cars they are starting to realise that they can probably do without their second or third cars.

If I were to buy a car for £5,000 and sell it for £2,000 three years later then that's £1,000 a year.

Add in VED £140, insurance £500 and servicing & MOT £160, that's £1,800 for the year before I've driven anywhere.

However that's assuming I've got a good no claims discount, are being fairly modest in the type of vehicle that I own and I'm not paying interest on a loan to buy the vehicle.

It is hard to find a lease car for less than £150/month which would be £1,800 before insurance. Up it to £175 a month and it's risen to £2,100 a year.

The problem with finding the true cost of car ownership is that there's so many costs which are paid at different times.

The easiest way to find out is to have a credit card which you solely use for car related costs (ideally paying off the balance each month), as at the end of the year they helpfully provide you with a summary of your yearly costs.

Then work out the cost per mile on the number of miles you travel. Is certainly going to be a lot more than the 10-15p per mile in fuel costs which most people evaluate their car costs when comparing with road travel.

As a household we have one car, having two would certainly be easier, however even when I was spending £2,000 in train travel to get to and from work there was no way I could make the sums work to make a car cheaper. Especially given that it was a 30 mile round trip to work and back. Even adding in £500 worth of other personal travel costs.

In terms of time savings, even with a change in the trains and the trains doing two sides of the triangle (with the car taking the direct route), traffic was so bad that on a very good day going by car was broadly the same journey times. Yes there were a few bad train journeys, but driving was more variable the times that I do it often being noticeably longer on a not particularly bad day.

Yes it's not practical for everyone, however things like car clubs are starting to make it more and more practical.

Without the railways (or buses, or cyclists, or whichever node of travel you wish to demonise as they cost the country money which is your taxes and/or get in your way for a few seconds when you are trying to get somewhere) the roads would be a lot worse for the vast majority of people. Not only through congestion; but through pollution, division of communities, lack of parking spaces, and the like.

To give you an idea of the level of impact something like 5% of journeys are made by rail, compare this to the circa 2% daily variations in traffic and compare the days where traffic is bad for no real reason and the days where it goes well. Those bad days would be the "normal" and the good (term time) days would probably be what it is like during the school holidays.
 

Goldfish62

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Oh well, people like using their cars, argument over. Let's determine public policy on the basis of what people like doing. I like walking round without breathing in the fumes motorists belch out, so that means I should be allowed to smash their cars up.

More seriously, electric cars are a welcome step but are unlikely to become universal for decades. There are issues about the energy used in their construction, and how the minerals vital for their batteries are sourced. They are still likely to consume more energy for the number of passenger miles than public transport vehicles, and we are a long way from pollution-free electricity production.

A lot of people don't use cars because they like them, but because it is impossible or impractical to make the journeys they need to make using public transport, thanks to woeful car-based planning policies and the resultant difficulty in providing effective public transport. If we started to reconstruct the country around public transport, it would become the natural choice for far more people
Re your last paragraph, I completely agree. There's no way I actually want to own a car. I do so for the local journeys that are not walkable or possible by public transport and for long distance journeys where rail is impractical or too expensive.
 

Gareth Marston

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Theirs some interesting stuff in the latest DfT statistics on passenger rail crowding including a Table https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/728302/rail-passengers-crowding-2017.pdf

Showing that journeys made by car in Urban Conurbations has fallen to 55% of all journeys. Urban City and Town the car has 65% of journeys, Rural Town and Fringe this goes up to 69% and for Rural Village, Hamlet and Isolated Dwelling 80%.

This follows on from the trend that started to emerge from the Mid 1990's of resurgence of the centre of regional conurbations combined with greater numbers of people in High Education who deferred moving into car ownership/ and then moved in to urban areas and continued to do without cars. Car ownership levels in urban under 35's have declined quite significantly and as a group more under 35's live in urban areas than elsewhere meaning that the shift is generational as well as geographic. If current trends continue we will see under 50% of journeys in Urban Conurbations being made by car and the "use the car less generation" extending to under 40's .

At the moment the "Baby Boomer" post World War 2 generation are holding up the car use figures, however there now starting to retire and move on to declining travel requirements, before too long the bulge in the age pyramid of their generation will disappear and the numbers of younger people replacing them are lower and on the evidence so far less inclined to drive. Simply put Demographics by the end of the 2020's are going to produce a decline in the demand for car travel.

The current Government is made up of older MP's predominantly domiciling in the rural Town and Fringe and Rural Village categories who follow the norms of their location and age and not the evidence of a shift in transport demand and expectations.
 

coppercapped

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Theirs some interesting stuff in the latest DfT statistics on passenger rail crowding including a Table https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/728302/rail-passengers-crowding-2017.pdf

Showing that journeys made by car in Urban Conurbations has fallen to 55% of all journeys. Urban City and Town the car has 65% of journeys, Rural Town and Fringe this goes up to 69% and for Rural Village, Hamlet and Isolated Dwelling 80%.

This follows on from the trend that started to emerge from the Mid 1990's of resurgence of the centre of regional conurbations combined with greater numbers of people in High Education who deferred moving into car ownership/ and then moved in to urban areas and continued to do without cars. Car ownership levels in urban under 35's have declined quite significantly and as a group more under 35's live in urban areas than elsewhere meaning that the shift is generational as well as geographic. If current trends continue we will see under 50% of journeys in Urban Conurbations being made by car and the "use the car less generation" extending to under 40's .

At the moment the "Baby Boomer" post World War 2 generation are holding up the car use figures, however there now starting to retire and move on to declining travel requirements, before too long the bulge in the age pyramid of their generation will disappear and the numbers of younger people replacing them are lower and on the evidence so far less inclined to drive. Simply put Demographics by the end of the 2020's are going to produce a decline in the demand for car travel.

The current Government is made up of older MP's predominantly domiciling in the rural Town and Fringe and Rural Village categories who follow the norms of their location and age and not the evidence of a shift in transport demand and expectations.
Hmmm! I'm not so sure...

You assume that the current geographic spread of the different social groups in the population will remain static. This is not necessarily so.

As the 'war babies' (of which I am one) and 'baby boomers' move on to greater and better things their properties will remain in the same place. These properties will be inherited or purchased by those currently living in inner urban areas who are looking for more space/better_schools/nearer_the_countryside/whatever_reason. There will be a drift of people from the centres, but these centres will then be filled by the next generation.

This drift outwards will continue with new building. As an example - although I am well aware that one cuckoo does not a summer make - Reading has an excess of small one and two room flats near the town centre giving an imbalance in the spread of household types; the Borough Council's position is that the centre is largely occupied by people who have no long-term interest in the town as they expect to move on and the demographic data confirm the flux. The Council is now attempting to encourage the building of more 3 and 4 bedroom houses - but building these in an existing developed urban area is well-nigh impossible. It is required by the Government to allow for an additional 512 households and build 541 homes per year out to 2036. It is already a densely occupied urban area, so these houses are built on the fringes - which makes them very expensive to serve with public transport at a frequency and range of destinations which is interesting.

I am sure that Reading is not unique in this respect.

Low density areas are not so well served by public transport for a variety of current reasons so, unless there is a sea change in the offering made by public transport, the split of journeys in Town and Fringe, Rural Village and Hamlet and Isolated Dwellings the modal split will not change significantly. The vehicles may be electric, but the numbers won't change significantly.

The issues are serious - but finding acceptable and sustainable solutions for the longer term will not be easy. And it will not be as trivial as some posters to this thread make out.
 

The Ham

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The issues are serious - but finding acceptable and sustainable solutions for the longer term will not be easy. And it will not be as trivial as some posters to this thread make out.

I live somewhere which is not an urban centre by any stretch of the imagination. It is also an area where there's good schools and the like. However as I've said before as a household we've only got one car and I've used public transport (mostly rail) to avoid the need for a second car. I'm aware of others that do the same.

If where I was had better than 1 bus per hour and/or a car club car then more people would probably follow suit.
 

Gareth Marston

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Hmmm! I'm not so sure...

You assume that the current geographic spread of the different social groups in the population will remain static. This is not necessarily so.

As the 'war babies' (of which I am one) and 'baby boomers' move on to greater and better things their properties will remain in the same place. These properties will be inherited or purchased by those currently living in inner urban areas who are looking for more space/better_schools/nearer_the_countryside/whatever_reason. There will be a drift of people from the centres, but these centres will then be filled by the next generation.

This drift outwards will continue with new building. As an example - although I am well aware that one cuckoo does not a summer make - Reading has an excess of small one and two room flats near the town centre giving an imbalance in the spread of household types; the Borough Council's position is that the centre is largely occupied by people who have no long-term interest in the town as they expect to move on and the demographic data confirm the flux. The Council is now attempting to encourage the building of more 3 and 4 bedroom houses - but building these in an existing developed urban area is well-nigh impossible. It is required by the Government to allow for an additional 512 households and build 541 homes per year out to 2036. It is already a densely occupied urban area, so these houses are built on the fringes - which makes them very expensive to serve with public transport at a frequency and range of destinations which is interesting.

I am sure that Reading is not unique in this respect.

Low density areas are not so well served by public transport for a variety of current reasons so, unless there is a sea change in the offering made by public transport, the split of journeys in Town and Fringe, Rural Village and Hamlet and Isolated Dwellings the modal split will not change significantly. The vehicles may be electric, but the numbers won't change significantly.

The issues are serious - but finding acceptable and sustainable solutions for the longer term will not be easy. And it will not be as trivial as some posters to this thread make out.

An increasing amount of people here in Mid Wales over the last 20 years have been what I call "House Price Boom Migrants" - they've had relatively modest jobs and incomes in the South East of England (but not exclusively), children have left home they perhaps have finished the mortgage or close to it and have sold up using the house price differential to buy somewhere modest outright and have money in the bank which they go through to top up their pensions/ low pay part time jobs they can get. Their grown up off spring with lives of their own down south by the time they inherit (in their 50's maybe?) will have the proceeds of a modest house at Mid Wales prices a property they have no emotional/family connection too and in a part of the world there maybe not keen on. I cant see them wanting to move out to Mid Wales with its suppressed job market.
 

Ian Murray

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While I was watching Question Time last night the Labour MP John Mann was going on about bringing the railways back into public ownership ......

Worth remembering that 30 years ago the job of the DfT was to call the BR board to account and scrutinise it's plans, costs and how it coped with problems. The current system consists of the DfT running UK rail with no scrutiny or accountability. The current timetable problems are an example of this.
 

The_Engineer

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Worth remembering that 30 years ago the job of the DfT was to call the BR board to account and scrutinise it's plans, costs and how it coped with problems. The current system consists of the DfT running UK rail with no scrutiny or accountability. The current timetable problems are an example of this.
This - more than anything else I have read recently - sums up what's wrong with our railways…...
 

Geoff DC

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Not mentioned anywhere on this thread that I have seen - but with a joined up Nationalised railway, rolling stock could once again be moved by rail instead of the ludicrous sight of rolling stock moving by road - for 4Qs Sake :rolleyes:
 

Dr Hoo

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Not mentioned anywhere on this thread that I have seen - but with a joined up Nationalised railway, rolling stock could once again be moved by rail instead of the ludicrous sight of rolling stock moving by road - for 4Qs Sake :rolleyes:
To be fair, a large amount of out-of-service passenger rolling stock IS moved by rail to and from storage, refurbishment, repair, commissioning and what-have-you. Several freight companies and niche operators like Rail Operations Group make quite a bit of money from this task.
Where it starts to break down is very early moves for brand new designs that may not yet be approved and gauge cleared for the UK network, new designs of coupler and so forth.
With the current levels of congestion and timetable pressure in many areas such movements are much harder to arrange than they were in BR days.
 

Edgeley

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Although privatisation works for the boss class (consultants, lawyers, train drivers etc) it is not working for many members of the ordinary travelling public.
 

The Ham

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Although privatisation works for the boss class (consultants, lawyers, train drivers etc) it is not working for many members of the ordinary travelling public.

In what way would it be able to be different if it were nationalised?

For instance there's little space on the busiest lines for extra services regardless of who runs it.
 

ChiefPlanner

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In what way would it be able to be different if it were nationalised?

For instance there's little space on the busiest lines for extra services regardless of who runs it.


Forget the lack of space etc ..the issue is the industry is so fragmented without a single controlling mind (responsible for safety , finance ,service etc etc) , called the Chairman of the BRB -with a cadre of responsible , qualified , dedicated managers and engineers etc , - mostly sourced through decades of experience and knowledge, who also (let it be said) - were not brilliantly paid , but by and large were there because they genuinely believed in public service and enjoyed the job.

The failure of the Thameslink Timetable delivery was put down to "the industry" (and the Dft) - so where and how do we move on please ?
 

Edgeley

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A nationalised system would be more relaxed about running longer trains where applicable; these could fit within current pathing constraints.
 

The Ham

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A nationalised system would be more relaxed about running longer trains where applicable; these could fit within current pathing constraints.

Would it though?

To run longer trains requires more rolling stock, which requires more money. Although a nationalised network wouldn't be paying shareholders it would be under the scrutiny of the like of the NAO, The Taxpayers' Alliance, etc. all of whom would be looking to ensure that money was spent well/not at all.

Under a nationalised system would TPE be getting the new trains they've offered, or would it be more likely they would be keeping the 185's?

Likewise ask those in East Anglia what they would rather have, their proposed new fleet or what they would have likely have got if it were nationalised? (Bonus points for detailing what that fleet would have likely looked like).

Would BR2.0 looked at new fleets when there's still a reasonable amount of life left in trains (even if maintenance was going to be cheaper) or would they keep it going until it was all in need of replacement?

Bearing in mind that unless there was someone telling region A to let region B have these trains and you'll get new trains, chances are rolling stock wouldn't move around very much. Based on past history if I were in charge of region A I wouldn't let region B have any of my trains until is got my new trains, as otherwise I could be left waiting as the new trains were late or the fleet reduced in size to save costs or shared with other regions as they too need more trains.
 

yorksrob

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Would it though?

To run longer trains requires more rolling stock, which requires more money. Although a nationalised network wouldn't be paying shareholders it would be under the scrutiny of the like of the NAO, The Taxpayers' Alliance, etc. all of whom would be looking to ensure that money was spent well/not at all.

Under a nationalised system would TPE be getting the new trains they've offered, or would it be more likely they would be keeping the 185's?

Likewise ask those in East Anglia what they would rather have, their proposed new fleet or what they would have likely have got if it were nationalised? (Bonus points for detailing what that fleet would have likely looked like).

Would BR2.0 looked at new fleets when there's still a reasonable amount of life left in trains (even if maintenance was going to be cheaper) or would they keep it going until it was all in need of replacement?

Bearing in mind that unless there was someone telling region A to let region B have these trains and you'll get new trains, chances are rolling stock wouldn't move around very much. Based on past history if I were in charge of region A I wouldn't let region B have any of my trains until is got my new trains, as otherwise I could be left waiting as the new trains were late or the fleet reduced in size to save costs or shared with other regions as they too need more trains.

If the whole system was nationalised in the traditional sense, BR2.0 wouldn't end up paying leasing costs for forty year old trains whose value had already been paid for.

I can't see such an organisation replacing rolling stock thats not life expired, which is good because that would be a waste of taxpayers money, however it probably would replace non-life expired to cascade it elsewhere.
 

RT4038

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A nationalised system would be more relaxed about running longer trains where applicable; these could fit within current pathing constraints.

Strange, because I thought the introduction of 2 car Sprinter type units, replacing longer trains, was done during the nationalised era.
 

yorksrob

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Strange, because I thought the introduction of 2 car Sprinter type units, replacing longer trains, was done during the nationalised era.

Two new carriages for every three. Although the new ones had more capacity than the old ones.

Of course, realistically a Government today would likely expect more capacity to be built into such renewals than the Thatcher era.
 
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