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Why is there now an obsession with re-nationalisation?

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RLBH

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The "business/entreprenneural" reaction is to look at how to make a loss making activity profitable or at least make it break even via cross-selling etc.
And then if those options aren't viable, cut it.

Actually, large corporate entities have some of the same issues with flexibility and reward mechanisms that governments have, and are likely to cut costs first in the absence of a specific direction to do otherwise.

Which still isn't the point - if you don't understand which services are loss making, you don't know which ones to concentrate effort on. That applies equally well whether you're going to remove services, operate them more efficiently, or come up with some way to drum up business.
 
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Dr Hoo

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It's a very obvious shortcoming of privatisation that none of these things were rectified in the twenty years since privatisation, many of which were not lean periods at all. In the case of Whitby in particular, we're still waiting for a satisfactory resolution.
(Picking this point up, having been away yesterday...)
The specific shortcoming being in the type and level of service specification against which franchises were offered. To a remarkable degree service patterns on non-intercity lines have been 'baked in' by the bodies responsible for franchising and concessioning for over 20 years now.
It was never going to be the case that the TOCs would find it a high priority to reinstate services that had patently been the least worthwhile use of scarce resources when they were reduced under BR unless this was an obligation.
For most of my BR career the requirement from governments of any shade was that the overall (implicitly 'national') pattern should be "generally comparable" with that operated previously. That was widely interpreted from the word go as allowing a degree of 'parliamentaryisation' on some lines and stations towards the margins.
 

underbank

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Which still isn't the point - if you don't understand which services are loss making, you don't know which ones to concentrate effort on. That applies equally well whether you're going to remove services, operate them more efficiently, or come up with some way to drum up business.

But lots of successful businesses have loss making activities running alongside the profitable ones. As long as the overall business/branch/region/dept/shop or whatever makes an acceptable profit (or makes an acceptable subsidy in the case of public services), the organisation doesn't need to waste a lot of resources trying to work out which bits are loss making. You have to look at the whole sometimes. There is also the challenge of choice of which costing method to adopt, i.e. marginal costing, absorption costing, standard costing, etc., to actually apportion costs - a service may be profitable on one costing method, but loss making on another - it's a managerial/strategic decision as to how to apportion costs across a large organisation/business.

As many organisations discover to their cost, just cutting some services often doesn't bring in the savings they expected - usually because the costing decisions were fundamentally flawed in the first place - the usual/lazy/uninformed option is simply (and wrongly) to take the total costs and apportion the total to services etc by way of customer numbers, number of locations, number of widgets etc. What they've failed to appreciate are two fundamental points. One being that customers of one service may also buy another, so cutting one service may mean you also lose the customer for the other profitable service. Secondly, a lot of the costs will continue unchanged even when a service/dept etc is cut, so you don't actually save anything, meaning the total costs now have to be spread over a smaller/fewer operational base, making "costs" higher for the rest of the organisation.

To do the job properly, you have to break down costs into what's fixed and what's variable, and then look for step-changes, etc. You also have to look at marginal costs, i.e. what is the "extra" cost of an activity. From what I've seen from 35 years working in management accountancy roles, very few organisations even understand the proper way of costing, let alone put it into practice, meaning stupid decisions are regularly made which damage the organisations' finances rather than improve it.

The classic example is the often trotted out example of how it costs a firm £50 to raise a purchase order, so lower ranking managers make silly decisions to buy something locally, more expensively, to "save" the £50. In reality, the marginal cost is probably less than a pound, being just the ink and paper, as the purchasing department is basically a fixed cost, i.e. premises, staff, equipment, etc., so raising "one more" costs pennies. Of course, raising a million more means bigger premises, more staff, more equipment, etc., so the "step change" from processing 1m to 2m is probably hundreds of pounds per order not just the £50 but then the "cost per order" reverts back to pennies until the next "step" is reached. It classically illustates the risk of poor decision making on flawed data.

Coming back to railways etc., surely the whole system should be working with other public transport, attractions, etc., to improve passenger numbers across the network which would be far more beneficial than just concentrating on a few poorly used lines/services. When you have the likes of the Alton Towers group, you could have combined tickets for ALL attractions within their group (all over the UK) rather than just one, or for combined tickets with buses, why not get a combined ticket option with Stagecoach or Arriva at country level for all areas rather than just for one town. By doing more widespread incentives, you'd generate more passengers all over the network which will have a knock on effect to the lesser used lines/services.
 

yorksrob

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(Picking this point up, having been away yesterday...)
The specific shortcoming being in the type and level of service specification against which franchises were offered. To a remarkable degree service patterns on non-intercity lines have been 'baked in' by the bodies responsible for franchising and concessioning for over 20 years now.
It was never going to be the case that the TOCs would find it a high priority to reinstate services that had patently been the least worthwhile use of scarce resources when they were reduced under BR unless this was an obligation.
For most of my BR career the requirement from governments of any shade was that the overall (implicitly 'national') pattern should be "generally comparable" with that operated previously. That was widely interpreted from the word go as allowing a degree of 'parliamentaryisation' on some lines and stations towards the margins.

Yes, the shortfall has been a lack of local consultation with stakeholders during the franchising process. Earlier Northern's "no growth" franchise being the nadir of this.
 

Gareth Marston

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More evidence that the franchising system is broken:

https://www.londonreconnections.com...-hard-to-find-swr-and-the-december-timetable/

Once again, a TOC cannot implement improvements because the DfT has neglected to tell NR to do the necessary infrastructure upgrade work. It's a ridiculous situation that is going to carry on until we restore a properly integrated structure to the railways.

It now appears endemic "look at the marvelous improvements under our franchising system" when there announced but they cant be delivered.
 

The Ham

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More evidence that the franchising system is broken:

https://www.londonreconnections.com...-hard-to-find-swr-and-the-december-timetable/

Once again, a TOC cannot implement improvements because the DfT has neglected to tell NR to do the necessary infrastructure upgrade work. It's a ridiculous situation that is going to carry on until we restore a properly integrated structure to the railways.

Playing Devil's Advocate, it would be possible to maintain the current structure just with less DfT interference and resolve issues like this by having the TOC's and NR being able to talk to each other. As well as allowing TOC's to invest a percentage of their premiums if that they can show that it would result in lower costs, higher income, etc. going forward.
 

underbank

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Once again, a TOC cannot implement improvements because the DfT has neglected to tell NR to do the necessary infrastructure upgrade work. It's a ridiculous situation that is going to carry on until we restore a properly integrated structure to the railways.

That's a communication problem which could still happen in an integrated system. After all, in nationalised industries, there are still plenty of cases where departments within that industry don't communicate effectively with eachother. Eg HMRC are a single public sector body, but there is very poor (if any) communication between it's component parts, i.e. the income tax depts don't routinely share information with the NIC dept nor tax credit dept and the VAT dept have poor communication channels with the corporation tax dept. So you have a single individual or company who are dealing with completely different HMRC depts who aren't sharing information, meaning you have to make several communications to tell them of a change in address or a business cessation, or an individual has to make a separate declaration of their income to the tax credits dept completely separate to their tax return.
 

Robertj21a

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More evidence that the franchising system is broken:

https://www.londonreconnections.com...-hard-to-find-swr-and-the-december-timetable/

Once again, a TOC cannot implement improvements because the DfT has neglected to tell NR to do the necessary infrastructure upgrade work. It's a ridiculous situation that is going to carry on until we restore a properly integrated structure to the railways.


No, that would make little difference. Communication is poor in many organisations, particularly big ones.
 

mpthomson

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Contrary to the assumption by many posters, Labour are actually putting in a significant amount effort into developing their rail nationalisation plans, and into understanding what they want to achieve from it. There is certainly a recognition that the monolithic 'statist' organisation of the past had a number of drawbacks.

The following article in RAIL a few months ago shows the sort of issues Labour are looking at:

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/rail-features/exclusive

Clearly it's not a complete blueprint for a nationalised railway, but it does show that this is emerging from a thoughtful process, not just following a blinkered ideological approach (unlike other parties I could mention...)

Also worth noting that every single commentator other than Mick Cash and a journalist thought that these plans were a bad idea. Is there a reason you didn't tell us that?
 

coppercapped

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It's a very obvious shortcoming of privatisation that none of these things were rectified in the twenty years since privatisation, many of which were not lean periods at all. In the case of Whitby in particular, we're still waiting for a satisfactory resolution.
Possibly because the DfT does not find the issues of sufficient interest...? After all, the current system is centrally specified.
 

yorksrob

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Possibly because the DfT does not find the issues of sufficient interest...? After all, the current system is centrally specified.

I would say almost certainly ! Although give them their due, they have tried to specify more of late (albeit with moxed success) however Whitby travellers are still confounded.
 

yorksrob

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Possibly because the DfT does not find the issues of sufficient interest...? After all, the current system is centrally specified.

I would say almost certainly ! Although give them their due, they have tried to specify more of late (albeit with mixed success) however Whitby travellers are still confounded.
 

Robertj21a

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I need someone to explain the Whitby comments. I know it's a nice line, and well worth a ride, but it had few people on it other than school kids when I went there.
 

yorksrob

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I need someone to explain the Whitby comments. I know it's a nice line, and well worth a ride, but it had few people on it other than school kids when I went there.

I've experienced it full and standing on a number of occasions.

Clearly as well, a 3 or four hour interval service isn't appropriate for such a link.
 

Carlisle

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I would say almost certainly ! Although give them their due, they have tried to specify more of late (albeit with moxed success) however Whitby travellers are still confounded.
Did we ever seriously believe after decades of projects overrunning/ overspending and being cancelled/ curtailed as a result, in BR days ,that suddenly the private contractual relationship was magically going to solve everything
 
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yorksrob

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Did we ever seriously believe after decades of projects overrunning/ overspending/ being cancelled/ curtailed as a result, in BR days ,that suddenly the private contractual relationship was magically going to solve everything

Perhaps not, but then again, I can think of lots of BR projects that went off largely without hiccup. Several electrifications in the South, various reopenings everywhere, a couple of total route modernisations.

By the time privatisation came along, there didn't seem to be that much to "solve" in terms of upgrades.
 

Robertj21a

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I've experienced it full and standing on a number of occasions.

Clearly as well, a 3 or four hour interval service isn't appropriate for such a link.

I suppose a key issue is that the bus service is actually quite good, and more frequent than it used to be. Presumably, on a year-round basis, the railway line must make quite a significant loss.
 

yorksrob

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I suppose a key issue is that the bus service is actually quite good, and more frequent than it used to be. Presumably, on a year-round basis, the railway line must make quite a significant loss.

I've done the route by mini-bus non-stop (more or less) and its not that quick.

A lot of people seem to prefer rail as a mode on the route, so I doubt it would underperform other regional rail services, given a half decent train service.
 

Robertj21a

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I've done the route by mini-bus non-stop (more or less) and its not that quick.

A lot of people seem to prefer rail as a mode on the route, so I doubt it would underperform other regional rail services, given a half decent train service.

Don't know anything about a mini bus but the double deckers on Arriva's X93 do Whitby to Middlesbrough in 75 mins. Would make a nice round trip to include the train in the other direction.
 

yorksrob

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Don't know anything about a mini bus but the double deckers on Arriva's X93 do Whitby to Middlesbrough in 75 mins. Would make a nice round trip to include the train in the other direction.

The minibus was a rail replacement because the Trans Pennine from York had been diverted to Darlington and missed the connection. All nineteen seats were full, and that was after daytrippers had been told they might as well turn back at Darlington !

The main road was over the tops, but definitely not as good scenery as the railway.
 

B&I

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Also worth noting that every single commentator other than Mick Cash and a journalist thought that these plans were a bad idea. Is there a reason you didn't tell us that?


How many of those 'commentators' depend on the existing structure of the railway for their jobs ?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Did we ever seriously believe after decades of projects overrunning/ overspending and being cancelled/ curtailed as a result, in BR days ,that suddenly the private contractual relationship was magically going to solve everything

I struggle to think of any BR era major catastrophes akin to Rugby etc that the industry has "enjoyed" in recent years - and as an on call manager I never worried about normal engineering works being an issue in terms of overruns etc. The engineers basically planned well and delivered

About the last BR projects - the DfT having cut off almost all funding post 1992 - 4 , was the complete and utter rebuilding of the International route from Ashford to Dollands Moor , done faultlessly over weekends with local resources and traction.

Maybe I have excessive rose-tinted glasses when I look at the past ...:D
 

quantinghome

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That's a communication problem which could still happen in an integrated system. After all, in nationalised industries, there are still plenty of cases where departments within that industry don't communicate effectively with eachother.

It's true that getting the various parts of the railway working properly together is always going to be a communication challenge. The current structure of the railway compounds that problem. The current log jam over Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15/16 are a good example. There are a whole host of issues to consider - civil engineering, platform design re passenger flows, train design (particularly no. and position of doors), whether new signalling systems will help, how it integrates into the whole regional network etc. Currently the only organisation who has control over all of this is the DfT, and it is manifestly unfit to fulfil that role. DfT (or preferably devolved regional bodies in the mould of transport Scotland) should be specifying the high level requirements, then the overall concept should be worked up by a body that has control over the infrastructure and trains. As others have pointed out, BR was actually reasonably good at doing this. By contrast under the current arrangements successful upgrades are more notable by their rarity.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Did we ever seriously believe after decades of projects overrunning/ overspending and being cancelled/ curtailed as a result, in BR days ,that suddenly the private contractual relationship was magically going to solve everything
Which "overrunning/overspending" B. R. projects are you thinking of?
 

underbank

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I need someone to explain the Whitby comments. I know it's a nice line, and well worth a ride, but it had few people on it other than school kids when I went there.

Unless it has a regular, properly planned/time service, it won't get used as much as it could be. We have the same issues on the Bentham, Furness and Cumbria coast lines, where the service isn't regular enough so people find alternative ways to travel or just don't bother travelling. One train every couple of hours puts people right off - no one wants to be stuck at a rural station for 2 hours waiting for the next train if they get delayed and miss it, or it's cancelled. Also, workers won't use it if it can't get them to/from work if the service isn't regular enough to arrive/leave close to their start/finish work times. It's classic "chicken & egg" territory. People don't use a service because it's not regular enough, and the TOCS/DfT say it's not worthy of a more frequent service because too few people use it!
 

coppercapped

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And then if those options aren't viable, cut it.
SNIPPED
An alternative to closure is such marginal/loss making activities/subsidiaries may also be sold to another organisation where they fit better.

Companies tend to get out of activities which are no longer profitable - unless they are prepared to cross-subsidise them. But in many cases, obviously not all, where an activity is given up - and not sold off - staff are transferred to new projects.
 

Northhighland

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Perhaps not, but then again, I can think of lots of BR projects that went off largely without hiccup. Several electrifications in the South, various reopenings everywhere, a couple of total route modernisations.

By the time privatisation came along, there didn't seem to be that much to "solve" in terms of upgrades.

Think the issue here is the scale of the work. Had BR been funded to the current level they would have run into pretty much the same issues. I do not think this is an argument between public v private, it is an argument around finding model to run our railways that is cost effective and is focused on the travelling public.

The current model consumes huge piles of taxpayers cash and promises jam tomorrow. When the day to deliver the improvements arrives as it did at the last timetable change they simply didn't deliver. the tired old excuse around the infrastructure was gone and the TOC's were found to be inept in their preparation for the new improved services they had been planning for years.

The current model doesn't work for anyone apart form the TOC shareholders. Equally those thinking a return to BR would solve everything are also deluded. We need a model that is different form what we have, as long as the debate remains fixated around public v private then the solution will not be found.
 

Goldfish62

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Think the issue here is the scale of the work. Had BR been funded to the current level they would have run into pretty much the same issues. I do not think this is an argument between public v private, it is an argument around finding model to run our railways that is cost effective and is focused on the travelling public.

The current model consumes huge piles of taxpayers cash and promises jam tomorrow. When the day to deliver the improvements arrives as it did at the last timetable change they simply didn't deliver. the tired old excuse around the infrastructure was gone and the TOC's were found to be inept in their preparation for the new improved services they had been planning for years.

The current model doesn't work for anyone apart form the TOC shareholders. Equally those thinking a return to BR would solve everything are also deluded. We need a model that is different form what we have, as long as the debate remains fixated around public v private then the solution will not be found.
Good post.
 

quantinghome

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Think the issue here is the scale of the work. Had BR been funded to the current level they would have run into pretty much the same issues.

It's useful to compare similar projects under BR and post privatisation:
East Coast vs Great Western electrification.
Intercity 125 vs IET

To be fair Network Rail has been able to deliver some projects reasonably well, such as station rebuilds and junction upgrades. Bu these don't feature much interaction with the TOCs.
 
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