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Why is there now an obsession with re-nationalisation?

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3141

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People have been brainwashed into thinking advertising and media are essential to fund pretty much anything and everything - "Scot's Home Early..." and equally banal garbage has been indelibly etched into your brain. That ain't silly it's reality you can't escape it even if you wanted to - it's continually drilled into your head at every opportunity.

Wow, are you serious? I don't think "advertising and media are essential to fund pretty much anything and everything" and I haven't even heard of "Scot's Home Early" let alone had it drilled into my brain. Apparently you have a very strong dislike of things like advertising and media, probably to the extent that you yourself "can't escape it even if you wanted to" and therefore find it very hard to think objectively about anything else that you associate with them.

OK, you're entitled to you views, but telling people who have different views that they're inescapably brainwashed and therefore completely wrong looks like clearing the ground for dictatorially imposing your views on everyone else.
 
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Barn

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However whether that was due to a lack of imagination and marketing skills or due to being financially hamstrung by the politicians and civil servants is a matter of opinion.

But this is my point: why would a newly renationalised railway be cut free from the politicians and civil servants? Much more 'politically important' Government departments have to make do with short-term funding packages which change at the Chancellor's whim each year.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Don't forget the volume of network rail work that's outsourced sticking a value on how much of that ends up as profit is harder but given that it runs into £ Billions every year.....

A good point - and one gathers it is an awful lot higher than could be expected.

The other NR issue is the over developed "Grip Process" ( from 1 to 5) for any alteration or project to the Network which takes a huge amount of time , costs a shed load of money and gives all sorts of opportunities for office bound process and standards happy people to indulge their bureaucratic fantasies. This was brought in to cover the failings of bad old Railtrack but has no become a monster , and whilst it is really important and sensible that the right thing is built and safely , I am very sure it could be done "leaner and smarter" ....a BR line manager (points proudly to self) could spend up to a £100k from memory and a BR Project Manager was paid a pretty modest (but reasonable) salary.....
 

thenorthern

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It may be true, but I doubt it, that outside this forum many people look back at B. R. with rose-tinted glasses. I certainly haven't noticed it in this forum. Those posters who refer back to B.R. do not suggest everything was perfect. Instead they - we, for I'm one of them - point out that many things today are worse than they used to be and that if B.R had been given the waterfall of tax-payers' money that is now poured into the railways, they would have achieved results far better than we have seen before or since.

The most valid criticism that can be levelled at B. R is that it failed to increase its turnover. However whether that was due to a lack of imagination and marketing skills or due to being financially hamstrung by the politicians and civil servants is a matter of opinion.

Outside this forum particularly from the young momentum followers of Jeremy Corbyn there seems to be a lot of people who aren't old enough to remember British Rail who think everything was great. The problem is it wasn't as people moan about 35 year old pacers but when the railways were sold off there was rolling stock that was approaching 50 years old with slam doors still being used. There is also the view that strike action wouldn't happen if there was a state-owned railway but again that's not true back in the days of British Rail there was even more strike action and it affected the whole network not regions of it.

Someone I know who is a outspoken Marxist claims that communism would mean a fair deal for the workers and I have to explain to him its not like that as under the USSR you had to work hard and if you thought about industrial action you were shipped off to Siberia to mine salt in a chain gang. He then replied that "the USSR wasn't doing it right".
 

yorksrob

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Outside this forum particularly from the young momentum followers of Jeremy Corbyn there seems to be a lot of people who aren't old enough to remember British Rail who think everything was great. The problem is it wasn't as people moan about 35 year old pacers but when the railways were sold off there was rolling stock that was approaching 50 years old with slam doors still being used. There is also the view that strike action wouldn't happen if there was a state-owned railway but again that's not true back in the days of British Rail there was even more strike action and it affected the whole network not regions of it.

Someone I know who is a outspoken Marxist claims that communism would mean a fair deal for the workers and I have to explain to him its not like that as under the USSR you had to work hard and if you thought about industrial action you were shipped off to Siberia to mine salt in a chain gang. He then replied that "the USSR wasn't doing it right".

Even the EPB's, which were fairly long in the tooth (although superb and comfortable) were only around 44 at the time of the last examples withdrawal.

Other than the good old Isle of Wight, I'm struggling to think of any fleets that were fifty years old in 1994 at privatisation.
 

ChiefPlanner

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To be fair to BR , especially in the early to mid 1980's they were actively - a the highest level campaigning about "the crumbling edge of quality" , not just in the SE where pre-war 4SUB's were front line tools in the daily commuter battle into London , but also on the cash strapped and challenged Regional routes.

The DfT at the time (and it was a challenging economic scenario with other industrial strife in coal , steel and the Auto business) , was suggesting a "refurbished train was as good as a new one") - hence facelifted 4PB stock in the South and blue / grey 116 sets in South Wales etc , whilst Serpell and so on were listened to in the corridors of power.

Remember , it was BR who transformed regions in Scotrail and with "Operation Sparkle" and then NSE in the SE. Not as if they did not pull up standards "within existing budgets" - as well as streamlining freight in the teeth of structural economic changes.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Even the EPB's, which were fairly long in the tooth (although superb and comfortable) were only around 44 at the time of the last examples withdrawal.

Other than the good old Isle of Wight, I'm struggling to think of any fleets that were fifty years old in 1994 at privatisation.

The facelifted EPB's were OK IMHO...especially when cleaning improved - see above...
 

Gareth Marston

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Well we wouldn't be clamouring for change if what we got now was working well would we? This country has not elected a Government with a commitment to public ownership since 1976, yet the most popular policy on all sides of the political spectrum is rail nationalisation. For all those that say BR wasn't that great and civil servants will interfere and the Treasury will do this and that what exactly is your solution to overly complex, sometimes expensive and poor value for money fares? Overcrowding? Late and very expesnsive infrastructure work?

The reality is there's nothing on offer and that's why people who may not ordinarily support public ownership for other things support it.
 

yorksrob

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The facelifted EPB's were OK IMHO...especially when cleaning improved - see above...

Yes, I found them bright and pleasant enough to be in - preferable to the refurbished CEP's which were a bit too bright for my taste (not that I wouldn't love to see one turn up at Charing Cross now though !)..
 

thenorthern

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Even the EPB's, which were fairly long in the tooth (although superb and comfortable) were only around 44 at the time of the last examples withdrawal.

Other than the good old Isle of Wight, I'm struggling to think of any fleets that were fifty years old in 1994 at privatisation.

My mistake I miscalculated the oldest trains were indeed around 44 years old. The older stock was comfortable and was very warm under all that asbestos insulation.
 

yorksrob

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My mistake I miscalculated the oldest trains were indeed around 44 years old. The older stock was comfortable and was very warm under all that asbestos insulation.

Indeed, but in those days everything was built of asbestos, including my dad's shed.

I make the point though, that the 205 thumpers were built in 1958 and withdrawn in 2004, at the height of privatisation (not that I have anything against 205 thumpers, being wonderful trains that I had the pleasure of travelling on for twenty years), so old rolling stock is definately not exclusively a BR thing (although good old rolling stock might be :lol:)
 

HH

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And who specifies the majority of current rolling stock?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Yes, I found them bright and pleasant enough to be in - preferable to the refurbished CEP's which were a bit too bright for my taste (not that I wouldn't love to see one turn up at Charing Cross now though !)..

If there was an unrefurbed 4CIG at CX tonight - even with GTR , I would be straight down there .....
 

Dr Hoo

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Well we wouldn't be clamouring for change if what we got now was working well would we? This country has not elected a Government with a commitment to public ownership since 1976, yet the most popular policy on all sides of the political spectrum is rail nationalisation. For all those that say BR wasn't that great and civil servants will interfere and the Treasury will do this and that what exactly is your solution to overly complex, sometimes expensive and poor value for money fares? Overcrowding? Late and very expensive infrastructure work?

The reality is there's nothing on offer and that's why people who may not ordinarily support public ownership for other things support it.
Rather than continuing with the nostalgia for old Southern EMUs let us try and answer these very reasonable questions:
"Overly complex" is a slightly perjorative term but I well remember how BR's fares were often criticised for their complexity with different 'colours' of Saver tickets and the introduction of advanced fares, etc. even then. Barry Doe and Alan Williams both had critical columns in Modern Railways at the time. One thing that was almost guaranteed then was fares being systematically increased by more than inflation. (I have quoted the eye-watering figures from Gourvish's official history of BR on this board before.) Since 1994 regulated fares have been restricted to slightly below inflation in the first franchising round to slightly above in the early 2000s and now in line with inflation in recent years.
"Overcrowding" seems to be being met with major investment in enhancements such as Thameslink, Crossrail, rebuilding of Reading and many, many more schemes, together with significantly enlarged rolling stock fleets either by direct DfT order or franchise requirement. We can quibble about whether the seats are too hard but in BR's day it always seemed to be about managing with fewer coaches and pricing off 'excess' demand. I was a Regional Railways service group manager at the time so know what went on!
"Late and expensive infrastructure work" is certainly an issue now although at least unparalleled amounts of money have been made available. It is easy to see 'late' in terms of saying that a line would be electrified by 2017 and it taking until 2019 but what about BR?
I always had a soft spot for the Great Northern Suburban Electrification and well remember going to an exhibition about it at King's Cross on the way to my BR job interview as a teenager. That had been 'promised' as part of the Modernisation Plan in 1955 but somehow never got under way until being very belatedly authorised by the Heath Government in the early 1970s. When it was completed in the late 1970s I well remember all the problems with Class 313 sliding doors and 6-car sets becoming electrically uncoupled when they went over a sharp vertical curve, of which there were several. Then people couldn't believe that the outer-suburban Class 312 sets were a decade-old design, still with slam doors. But anyway, it was only more than a decade 'late' and at least it was cheap.
Meanwhile we have record passenger demand, record levels of safety, record investment and a record amount of money commited in the 'SOFA' for the next control period, primarily for basic operations, maintenance and renewals. We have actually seen a decade of recognition across the political spectrum that railways are a national enabler, worthy of taxpayer support as we recover from the 2008 financial crisis. This support being 'guaranteed' in the shape of multi-year franchise payments and Control Period funding rather than a year-by-year negotiation with the Treasury.
Although I am now retired I know that many current industry managers and staff are aghast that delivery has been so patchy for what are often 'internal' reasons.

I learnt a great deal in my 20 years with BR and we certainly achieved 'quite a lot with not a lot' but I certainly wouldn't like to go back the structures and policies of that era.
 
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yorksrob

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Rather than continuing with the nostalgia for old Southern EMUs let us try and answer these very reasonable questions:
"Overly complex" is a slightly perjorative term but I well remember how BR's fares were often criticised for their complexity with different 'colours' of Saver tickets and the introduction of advanced fares, etc. even then. Barry Doe and Alan Williams both had critical columns in Modern Railways at the time. One thing that was almost guaranteed then was fares being systematically increased by more than inflation. (I have quoted the eye-watering figures from Gourvish's official history of BR on this board before.) Since 1994 regulated fares have been restrcited to slightly below inflation in the first franchising round to slightly above in the early 2000s and now in line with inflation in recent years.
"Overcrowding" seems to be being met with major investment in enhancements such as Thameslink, Crossrail, rebuilding of Reading and many, many more schemes, together with significantly enlarged rolling stock fleets either by direct DfT order or franchise requirement. We can quibble about whether the seats are too hard but in BR's day it always seemed to be about managing with fewer coaches and pricing off 'excess' demand. I was a Regional Railways service group manager at the time so know what went on!
"Late and expensive infrastructure work" is certainly an issue now although at least unparalleled amounts of money have been made available. It is easy to see 'late' in terms of saying that a line would be electrified by 2017 and it taking until 2019 but what about BR?
I always had a soft spot for the Great Northern Suburban Electrification and well remember going to an exhibition about it at King's Cross on the way to my BR job interview as a teenager. That had been 'promised' as part of the Modernisation Plan in 1955 but somehow never got under way until being very belatedly authorised by the Heath Government in the early 1970s. When it was completed in the late 1970s I well remember all the problems with Class 313 sliding doors and 6-car sets becoming electrically uncoupled when they went over a sharp vertical curve, of which there were several. Then people couldn't believe that the outer-suburban Class 312 sets were a decade-old design, still with slam doors. But anyway, it was only more than a decade 'late' and at least it was cheap.
Meanwhile we have record passenger demand, record levels of safety, record investment and a record amount of money commited in the 'SOFA' for the next control period, primarily for basic operations, maintenance and renewals. We have actually seen a decade of recognition across the political spectrum that railways are a national enabler, worthy of taxpayer support as we recover from the 2008 financial crisis. This support being 'guaranteed' in the shape of multi-year franchise payments and Control Period funding rather than a year-by-year negotiation with the Treasury.
Although I am now retired I know that many current industry managers and staff are aghast that delivery has been so patchy for what are often 'internal' reasons.

I learnt a great deal in my 20 years with BR and we certainly achieved 'quite a lot with not a lot' but I certainly wouldn't like to go back the structures and policies of that era.

Well, I've been travelling by train regularly for thirty years, and I've never experienced a year as bad as this one.
 

FQTV

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A good point - and one gathers it is an awful lot higher than could be expected.

The other NR issue is the over developed "Grip Process" ( from 1 to 5) for any alteration or project to the Network which takes a huge amount of time , costs a shed load of money and gives all sorts of opportunities for office bound process and standards happy people to indulge their bureaucratic fantasies. This was brought in to cover the failings of bad old Railtrack but has no become a monster , and whilst it is really important and sensible that the right thing is built and safely , I am very sure it could be done "leaner and smarter" ....a BR line manager (points proudly to self) could spend up to a £100k from memory and a BR Project Manager was paid a pretty modest (but reasonable) salary.....

Never a truer word was said.

It was when I discovered that my electricity meter is owned by Macquarie Bank that I realised what ‘privatisation’ really means in the U.K.

An Australian investor profits purely from the spinning of a tiny wheel in my basement.

How many tiny wheels are there in the railway? Who is watching them spin, and for how much?

If you point at the train operating companies and their wafer-thin margins (at best) as being the spinner winners then I suspect that a) you’ve fallen for the propaganda, and b) the architects of the real money-go-round howl themselves to sleep with laughter and dividends each night.
 

thenorthern

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John Mcdonnell has now said Labour could re-nationalise the railways in 5 years. Given that some franchises are due to expire more than 10 years from now he has spoken about investigating if break clauses in contracts would allow them to be re-nationalised early.
 

lordbusiness

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John Mcdonnell has now said Labour could re-nationalise the railways in 5 years. Given that some franchises are due to expire more than 10 years from now he has spoken about investigating if break clauses in contracts would allow them to be re-nationalised early.

I hope he's done his sums right.
 

FQTV

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John Mcdonnell has now said Labour could re-nationalise the railways in 5 years. Given that some franchises are due to expire more than 10 years from now he has spoken about investigating if break clauses in contracts would allow them to be re-nationalised early.

In the actual recorded interview, he’s a lot more equivocal than might be suggested by this written quote. He says that it’s something that they’re investigating. I assume that they’d be trying to get things to an irreversible position by the end of a first term, which makes political, if not practical sense.

It’d be massively more complicated (done properly) than just taking the train operating company activities back in-house, but it’s perhaps also worth noting that, anecdotally, it’s the franchises let most recently, with the longest terms to run, that are suggested by some to be the most precarious and which may fall-over within five years anyhow.
 

DynamicSpirit

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It was when I discovered that my electricity meter is owned by Macquarie Bank that I realised what ‘privatisation’ really means in the U.K.

An Australian investor profits purely from the spinning of a tiny wheel in my basement.

But what makes you think there is anything wrong about that? You say they're profiting from spinning a tiny wheel. Now I don't know the details of the contracts involved here, but... It seems to me more likely that what they're profiting from is that they invested money that enabled all the research and development leading to building a meter that your electricity company decided was in some way better than any other meter on the market. And, in the process of investing money, they took a risk that all that development would come to nothing. And the profits they are making are nothing more than a fair reward for taking that risk and putting that investment in to develop something that benefits the electricity company - presumably enabling the electricity company to provide a slightly better service/lower prices than it could otherwise have done. Of course, without knowing the details of this particular case, I don't know for sure that there isn't something dodgy about this case, but neither do you know for sure that there is. And ... innocent until proven guilty etc.

Lots of people, especially on the left, seem to have this idea that someone making a profit means that people must automatically be being somehow ripped off. But in reality, profits are, for the most part, simply a reward for someone taking a risk and taking the time/investment/etc. to develop something that benefits other people. To that extent they aren't that much different in principle from someone being paid a wage for doing a job (except profits are less secure and more variable). There are of course some cases where for some reason, the profits being made by a particular company might have been made in an unethical way or might be excessive as a result, but those cases tend to be exceptions, not the rule.
 

HowardGWR

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It's when you start using consultants for core activities that it gets out of hand. NR is riddled with them.
 

lordbusiness

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It's when you start using consultants for core activities that it gets out of hand. NR is riddled with them.

Agreed. That and the profusion of graduates with little or no railway experience. I don't know what their personnel wage bill actually is but whenever you visit a NRW office you do wonder exactly what all these people do, and also the bill they must pay for the palacial offices (ever been to the NWR offices at MK?).

While the TOCs are not totally blameless the vast majority of these problems are caused by the DfT and NWR. I've yet to meet a civil servant in the DfT who has actually worked on the railway and has actual experience of the challenges of running a railway. In addition there is the problem of different departments within the DfT setting out conflicting franchise obligations and other commitments.

The TOCs remember are the public face and get it in the neck from the public when, in most cases they are struggling to cope. Finally, there is the oft put about fallacy the the TOCs are actually making a lot of money- believe me, you would be surprised how little money actually goes back to owning groups after everything has been paid.
 

Andyh82

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The general public doesn’t understand that most decisions are made by the DfT already.

They assume the trains are old or there aren’t enough of them because the private operator is refusing to spend money and prefer to increase their own profits.

They also assume that nationalisation will reduce delays and cancellations such as signalling problems, overhead wire problems, track defects, leaves on the line etc.

It’s also worth pointing out that since the fares on TfL were frozen, cuts have had to be made to service levels behind the scenes, little bits of trimming here and there, buses now running every 10 instead of every 8, that isn’t noticed at London frequencies but would be noticed on less frequent services like the rail network.
 

Railwaysceptic

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But this is my point: why would a newly renationalised railway be cut free from the politicians and civil servants? Much more 'politically important' Government departments have to make do with short-term funding packages which change at the Chancellor's whim each year.
I don't think it would be free of them. I think the Labour Party's plans for renationalisation will make things even worse. There is no longer a B. R. we could go back to; the TOCs are not the big problem with today's railway; and Labour is not in the slightest bit interested in tackling the real issues: the arrogance and incompetence of senior civil servants at DfT and Network Rail's inability to complete projects on time and within a reasonable budget.
 
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But what makes you think there is anything wrong about that? You say they're profiting from spinning a tiny wheel. Now I don't know the details of the contracts involved here, but... It seems to me more likely that what they're profiting from is that they invested money that enabled all the research and development leading to building a meter that your electricity company decided was in some way better than any other meter on the market. And, in the process of investing money, they took a risk that all that development would come to nothing. And the profits they are making are nothing more than a fair reward for taking that risk and putting that investment in to develop something that benefits the electricity company - presumably enabling the electricity company to provide a slightly better service/lower prices than it could otherwise have done. Of course, without knowing the details of this particular case, I don't know for sure that there isn't something dodgy about this case, but neither do you know for sure that there is. And ... innocent until proven guilty etc.

Lots of people, especially on the left, seem to have this idea that someone making a profit means that people must automatically be being somehow ripped off. But in reality, profits are, for the most part, simply a reward for someone taking a risk and taking the time/investment/etc. to develop something that benefits other people. To that extent they aren't that much different in principle from someone being paid a wage for doing a job (except profits are less secure and more variable). There are of course some cases where for some reason, the profits being made by a particular company might have been made in an unethical way or might be excessive as a result, but those cases tend to be exceptions, not the rule.

Where's the risk in supplying someone with electricity? It's an artificial market, just like the "privatised" railway. The minute a profit motive is introduced, the directors of the company have a duty to their shareholders to MAXIMISE profit. This means getting the maximum price the market will support for any given product or service. That's fine when we're considering soap powder or nappies or garden furniture, the consumer has complete freedom to decide which detergent to buy or which disposable nappy. Commuters and rail users have NO CHOICE. They have to get to work, just in the same way as you have to use electricity. So there's no competition and no free market, therefore market forces don't apply and the rail network should be removed from private ownership immediately, without compensation to anyone.

If the Tories could get away with it, they'd privatise fresh air.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Where's the risk in supplying someone with electricity? It's an artificial market, just like the "privatised" railway. The minute a profit motive is introduced, the directors of the company have a duty to their shareholders to MAXIMISE profit. This means getting the maximum price the market will support for any given product or service. That's fine when we're considering soap powder or nappies or garden furniture, the consumer has complete freedom to decide which detergent to buy or which disposable nappy. Commuters and rail users have NO CHOICE. They have to get to work, just in the same way as you have to use electricity. So there's no competition and no free market, therefore market forces don't apply and the rail network should be removed from private ownership immediately, without compensation to anyone.

If the Tories could get away with it, they'd privatise fresh air.

1. We're not talking about the risk in supplying electricity, we're talking about the risk in designing building a better electricity meter (which is presumably the reason that this company owns the meter).
2. Even in supplying someone with electricity, there are lots of risks. Demand can fluctuate depending on the economy, and you may have contracts with suppliers. Alternatively there could be issues with supply that push the price up, or with your infrastructure that requires costly repairs. And besides, in the UK, there is competition for electricity: Consumers can change to a cheaper supplier if they so wish (although admittedly, inertia means that relatively few do).
3. It's only partially true that commuters and rail users have no choice. It's probably true for people who have to use the train to get to work in central London. Less true for people who are making leisure journeys, or for people making short journeys for which bus, cycling, or car may be an alternative. And of course, even for journeys into London, there's (admittedly, imperfect) competition because, when the franchise comes up for renewal, the Government has a choice of whom to award the franchise to.
 
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1. We're not talking about the risk in supplying electricity, we're talking about the risk in designing building a better electricity meter (which is presumably the reason that this company owns the meter).
2. Even in supplying someone with electricity, there are lots of risks. Demand can fluctuate depending on the economy, and you may have contracts with suppliers. Alternatively there could be issues with supply that push the price up, or with your infrastructure that requires costly repairs. And besides, in the UK, there is competition for electricity: Consumers can change to a cheaper supplier if they so wish (although admittedly, inertia means that relatively few do).
3. It's only partially true that commuters and rail users have no choice. It's probably true for people who have to use the train to get to work in central London. Less true for people who are making leisure journeys, or for people making short journeys for which bus, cycling, or car may be an alternative. And of course, even for journeys into London, there's (admittedly, imperfect) competition because, when the franchise comes up for renewal, the Government has a choice of whom to award the franchise to.

You are Norman Tebbit and I claim my £5.
 

HowardGWR

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If the Tories could get away with it, they'd privatise fresh air.
Taking that point on board, they already have. If you live in a 'leafy' area, that's because you are in private housing that only the better-off can afford. If you can't afford a posh house and live in a city council flat or ropey rented private accomodation, your air quality will be much worse with perhaps a murky, noisy, urban dual carriageway or railway next to you, carrying in the well-off commuters from afar. That's why rural poor are at least better off in one respect - they breath fresh air for free.
 

AndrewE

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If you point at the train operating companies and their wafer-thin margins (at best) as being the spinner winners then I suspect that a) you’ve fallen for the propaganda, and b) the architects of the real money-go-round howl themselves to sleep with laughter and dividends each night.
Exactly right.

Lots of people, especially on the left, seem to have this idea that someone making a profit means that people must automatically be being somehow ripped off. But in reality, profits are, for the most part, simply a reward for someone taking a risk and taking the time/investment/etc. to develop something that benefits other people.
If that were true then we wouldn't have such a problem with it. However the real money is being made by devious financial juggling to exploit any advantage that can be spotted or created. Like running the company on a "loan" made by a sibling company in a tax haven, so that all profit disappears in interest payments - meaning no tax payable - or, as in the early years of the Virgin involvement in the WCML, the cola in the buffet cars being "Virgin" brand, so a big payment could be made to another Virgin company in a tax haven for the use of the name.
The real benefit from Nationalisation comes from using government / our money as it cuts out layers of fixers and other financiers' involvement.
And the money is there, we are just being conned into thinking that taxes have to be low. In fact we are living in a fools paradise if we expect to have a proper infrastructure for no payments. Anyone feel proud of the repeated scandals in the criminal justice system, or the wider Home Office performance?
 
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