Why is Wi-Fi limited and so poor?

[Bletchleyite]

I take it they no longer use satellite down-links then.

I don't believe they ever did.

 

[AdamWW]

I don't believe they ever did.

GNER did, with Icomera. I don't know if anyone else did.

The connection to the internet presumably came out in Sweden because you'd get served adverts in Swedish when using it.

It was free if you were sitting in a local train next to the first class end of a GNER train in Kings Cross...

(I think later it went free for everyone anyway).

 

[sor]

GNER did, with Icomera. I don't know if anyone else did.

The connection to the internet presumably came out in Sweden because you'd get served adverts in Swedish when using it.

It was free if you were sitting in a local train next to the first class end of a GNER train in Kings Cross...

(I think later it went free for everyone anyway).

El Reg suggests it may have been cellular based - https://www.theregister.com/2003/08/15/gner_to_spend_pound_1m/ although it says Icomera also used satellite connectivity (would have been hellishly expensive). Unclear what GNER was prepared to pay for, but:

GNER has conducted trials to find out what the quality of the GSM network is like along the east coast rail route from London to Inverness, according to Current Analysis' report, which concluded that coverage was 98 per cent.

As Icomera are based in Sweden (according to that article) that would explain why traffic was tunnelled there.

 

[Ediswan]

Regulation of mobile signal repeaters has been significantly loosened recently. These use an external antenna to relay signal and retransmit it indoors.

Do you have a reference for that ? I'm curious. Edit: Curious about the change of regulations, I know what they do.

 

[JB_B]

It’s probably just such a normal thing in mainland Europe. I have unlimited data in the UK so I tend to download before I board, but I only have 25GB roaming per month which is barely anything to me. I really wasn’t expecting much from the wifi, but to be greeted by unlimited wifi in the portal and no restrictions was such a nice surprise.

Not all of mainland Europe - I think it depends where you go. Recently, for me, parts of Hungary and lots of Romania, Bulgaria and European Turkey had no mobile data ( and no on-train wifi.)

 

[AdamWW]

El Reg suggests it may have been cellular based - https://www.theregister.com/2003/08/15/gner_to_spend_pound_1m/ although it says Icomera also used satellite connectivity (would have been hellishly expensive). Unclear what GNER was prepared to pay for, but:

https://www.techdigest.tv/2006/03/gner_brings_wif.html says

The company’s system, designed by Swedish net access specialist Icomera, uses line-of-sight satellite links for the main connection, with GPRS and 3G mobile phone links as back up and to provide connectivity when trains are in tunnels and covered stations.

which accords with my memory.

As Icomera are based in Sweden (according to that article) that would explain why traffic was tunnelled there.

Indeed, though it may have been not tunneling as such but the connection to the internet from their satellite network being in Sweden.

 

[westv]

If this article is to be believed, we won't need to worry about wifi for much longer - there won't be any

Train wi-fi at risk as part of cost-cutting move

The government says wi-fi is not a priority for passengers, but one expert claims trains could lose custom.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rail users could lose access to wi-fi on trains in England as part of cost cuts after the government said it was a low priority for passengers.
The Department for Transport says cost pressures mean it will review whether the current wi-fi service "delivers the best possible value for

 

[Holly's 159]

If this article is to be believed, we won't need to worry about wifi for much longer - there won't be any

Train wi-fi at risk as part of cost-cutting move

The government says wi-fi is not a priority for passengers, but one expert claims trains could lose custom.

www.bbc.co.uk

The DfT really hate the railways don't they!
This won't entice people on to the railways, it will do the opposite.
Just hope this shower of a government are turfed out next year!

 

[Horizon22]

The DfT really hate the railways don't they!
This won't entice people on to the railways, it will do the opposite.
Just hope this shower of a government are turfed out next year!

For me though my wi-fi experience has been incredibly mixed.

If it can't (or won't...) be done reliably - consistently - the benefit of it is much reduced over better mobile coverage.

 

[AdamWW]

The DfT really hate the railways don't they!
This won't entice people on to the railways, it will do the opposite.
Just hope this shower of a government are turfed out next year!

I don't really see the sense of a survey asking passengers to rate the importance of wifi alongside things like punctuality and reliability - it's not really in the same category.
But in principle asking for a business case doesn't seem so unreasonable - if removing wifi will lead to a significant loss of custom then it would justify keeping it.

Of course how you actually do this in a meaningful manner is another question.

 

[Bigfoot]

There is a lot of rail 5g kit being installed on the swml currently.

New superfast WiFi for passengers

www.southwesternrailway.com

• SWR customers will enjoy superfast Wi-Fi on-board SWR services from Basingstoke to Earlsfield
• The technology will cover over 70km of railway, in a first for the UK mainland
• Full deployment is likely to complete and launch for customer use in early 2023

The rail-5G project to deploy superfast on-board Wi-Fi for South Western Railway (SWR) customers between Basingstoke and Earlsfield is progressing at pace. Engineers for the project by evo-rail and SWR, in partnership with Network Rail, have now installed the first series of rail-5G poles on the line between the stations on the South West Main Line.
It will be the first railway line in the mainland UK to deploy the industry-leading rail-5G technology for customer use. With over 100 trains already fitted to accommodate the solution, the technology will cover 70km of the SWR network.
Evo-rail, a telecoms company part of FirstGroup, has developed rail-5G as the first multi-gigabit internet solution built for the railways. Rail-5G can dramatically improve connectivity on trains, with the technology enabling the delivery of superfast continuous internet, at 50 times the current average speeds.
With rail-5G, passengers will be able to enjoy unprecedented levels of connectivity, similar to what they are used to at home or in the office, allowing them to stream videos, make video calls, download large files, and much more.
The solution has undergone a large-scale pilot on SWR’s Island Line on the Isle of Wight. The successful trial proved that the rail-5G solution can consistently deliver one gigabit per second (Gbps) throughput to a moving train, so now the technology is being rolled out to other parts of the SWR network
Rail-5G has been developed and designed as a specialist solution for the railways. As well as exceeding all the standards and regulations set in Europe and the UK for trackside and train installations, it has been designed to be quick to install, sustainable, and deliver a return on investment for train operators.
The solution delivers near perfect, consistent coverage, creating opportunities for operators to commercialise overage, and providing rail customers with unsurpassed levels of connectivity.
The technology uses poles and antennas to create a radio network, accessible to both the trains’ operational systems and customers on board.
Full deployment is likely to complete and launch for customer use in early 2023. Once fully operational, customers will have access to rail-5G and will be able to enjoy superfast and reliable onboard Wi-Fi throughout their journeys.
Christian Neill, Customer Experience Director for South Western Railway, commented:

“South Western Railway is committed to providing a modern customer experience for the digital age and rolling out new superfast internet, at 50 times the current average speeds, is an integral part of our plan to do that.

“Following a successful pilot on Isle of Wight’s Island Line, we are excited to deliver this industry-leading standard of internet connectivity for our customers, which will provide superfast and reliable Wi-Fi for 70km of railway between Basingstoke and Earlsfield.”
Simon Holmes, Managing Director, evo-rail, said:

“Improving services for passengers through superfast and reliable connectivity – especially on-board Wi-Fi services – will be the keystone in rail becoming the transport mode of choice.

“Our solution can dramatically improve connectivity on passenger trains and the technology allows passengers to have constant, uninterrupted and consistent internet 50 times the average speed of today’s mobile connection.

“We are very excited for this milestone of our project with South Western Railway and Network Rail and look forward to bringing the solution to customers travelling between Earlsfield and Basingstoke.”

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't really see the sense of a survey asking passengers to rate the importance of wifi alongside things like punctuality and reliability - it's not really in the same category.
But in principle asking for a business case doesn't seem so unreasonable - if removing wifi will lead to a significant loss of custom then it would justify keeping it.

Of course how you actually do this in a meaningful manner is another question.

Just turn it off. If few complain, leave it off.

That's what Stagecoach appear to have done on their buses.

 

[benbristow]

Onboard train wi-fi has always been pitiful in the UK.

Always seems to be ran by Icomera who seem like they couldn't organise a merry event in a brewery. The amount of times I've tried to connect to an on-board hotspot only to find out the SSL certificate for the captive portal has expired...

I'm no expert in networking but I'd have thought you'd have been able to get a SIM card from each of the main networks (O2/Voda/EE) stuck in some device on the roof of a train and then do some form of load balancing to get adequate bandwidth. At the moment using your own 3G/4G/5G on your phone is a lot quicker & more reliable and isn't subject to content filtering for streaming services etc and you don't need to mess about with captive portals or data limits (if you're on an unlimited plan at least).

 

[Energy]

Always seems to be ran by Icomera who seem like they couldn't organise a merry event in a brewery. The amount of times I've tried to connect to an on-board hotspot only to find out the SSL certificate for the captive portal has expired...

Captive portals are often up to the train company. For example Avanti use Purple to supply it seperately.

I'm no expert in networking but I'd have thought you'd have been able to get a SIM card from each of the main networks (O2/Voda/EE) stuck in some device on the roof of a train and then do some form of load balancing to get an adequate signal.

They do, usually multiple from each network.

 

[AdamWW]

At the moment using your own 3G/4G/5G on your phone is a lot quicker & more reliable and isn't subject to content filtering for streaming services etc and you don't need to mess about with captive portals or data limits (if you're on an unlimited plan at least).

Or having Traksy and Realtimetrains blocked...

 

[benbristow]

They do, usually multiple from each network.

You could've fooled me! Amount of times I've had fine data access via Vodafone but tried the train Wi-Fi and it won't load anything at all.

 

[Energy]

You could've fooled me! Amount of times I've had fine data access via Vodafone but tried the train Wi-Fi and it won't load anything at all.

The hardware itself can also just be bad or installed/configured badly.

 

[benbristow]

Captive portals are often up to the train company. For example Avanti use Purple to supply it seperately.

Must be an Avanti thing. Usually the URL is .omboard.info or .on.icomera.com

 

[NoRoute]

I don't really see the sense of a survey asking passengers to rate the importance of wifi alongside things like punctuality and reliability - it's not really in the same category.
But in principle asking for a business case doesn't seem so unreasonable - if removing wifi will lead to a significant loss of custom then it would justify keeping it.

Well if the value of unproductive, unused time of people travelling by train is sufficient to build a business case to support the construction of HS2 at vast cost, then presumably that same value of time must support provision of Wi-Fi at a small fraction of the cost, to allow business travelers to use existing trains productively.

I struggle to see how the DfT and railway industry could simultaneously argue that both HS2 is justified and that decent Wi-Fi on existing trains is unnecessary. Unless of course they assume radically different values of traveler's time, but that would mean the businesses cases were fantasy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well if the value of unproductive, unused time of people travelling by train is sufficient to build a business case to support the construction of HS2 at vast cost, then presumably that same value of time must support provision of Wi-Fi at a small fraction of the cost, to allow business travelers to use existing trains productively.

Most business travellers will just tether to their phone.

The intersection of "business travellers who will work on a laptop on the train" and "people who do not have a smartphone" is an empty set.

I'm not even allowed to connect one of my work laptops to any kind of public wifi - tethering or private wifi (at home or in the office) is the only thing I'm allowed to do.

 

[Dai Corner]

Most business travellers will just tether to their phone.

The intersection of "business travellers who will work on a laptop on the train" and "people who do not have a smartphone" is an empty set.

I'm not even allowed to connect one of my work laptops to any kind of public wifi - tethering or private wifi (at home or in the office) is the only thing I'm allowed to do.

Out of interest, do you have a separate business network at home?

I don't think you have children but can imagine a situation where a work machine shares a network with goodness knows what devices the teenage kids are using.

 

[Goldfish62]

Wouldn't surprise me if next in line in the DfT's quest to make rail as unattractive as possible is the abolition of all catering and locking of half the toilets on trains to save on cleaning and maintenance.

Most business travellers will just tether to their phone.

Good luck with that between Oxford and Leamington Spa.

 

[sor]

Most business travellers will just tether to their phone.

The intersection of "business travellers who will work on a laptop on the train" and "people who do not have a smartphone" is an empty set.

I'm not even allowed to connect one of my work laptops to any kind of public wifi - tethering or private wifi (at home or in the office) is the only thing I'm allowed to do.

In the era of mass WFH that seems like a rather antiquated "security" measure - especially as any well configured commercial wifi would have client isolation anyway.

To add another anecdote, my megacorp employer has no such restriction (and we provide correctly configured public wifi for our visitors).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest, do you have a separate business network at home?

No.

I don't think you have children but can imagine a situation where a work machine shares a network with goodness knows what devices the teenage kids are using.

I indeed don't. However if I did I've got control over what they connect to it, unlike public wifi. And I can easily see what's connected by connecting to the router's front end.

It's a slightly paranoid policy given that pretty much every company uses a VPN which is inherently secure, but whether I think it's paranoid or not I don't have the option not to comply with it if I want to keep my job.

 

[NoRoute]

Most business travellers will just tether to their phone.

The intersection of "business travellers who will work on a laptop on the train" and "people who do not have a smartphone" is an empty set.

Having smart phone != has phone signal inside carriage.

And with a lot of companies using cloud based applications and systems, it isn't enough to have an intermittent signal, regular drop-outs can make working a real pain.

 

[leytongabriel]

And now it seems the DfT are pulling the funding for updating wifi on trains unless TOCS can demonstrate a business case.
Not trying to undermine rail transport at all by any chance?

 

[Gaelan]

Or having Traksy and Realtimetrains blocked...

Wait what? Does some TOC do this?

 

[KGX]

Personally I find train Wi-Fi on LNER largely unusable. If my phone data isn’t working, chances are the train Wi-Fi isn’t either. Rarely even bother trying to use it now. Unfortunately the 5G/4G on the line is quite patchy.

 

[sor]

having thought about it a bit more - there's another factor to consider, international travellers to the UK. While UK/EU zero or low cost roaming is still largely intact, not all travellers have that luxury and free wifi at stations and on trains could be of immense help to them.

 

[johncrossley]

I would prefer the money to be spent on good 4G/5G coverage on rail routes, including in tunnels like in Switzerland. Swiss railways don't offer Wi-Fi, and instead offer free data through a SIM card, which is more effective and presumably costs less to provide

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